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07-02-2008, 02:14 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
If he doesn't want to be here, then he doesn't want to be here. He's a great defenseman who'll continue to develop and will be sorely missed here. He has some faults, but everyone does, and his are very few. I'd love for him to stay, but it unfortunately may not happen.

If he doesn't want to stay, then I don't blame him. If that is the case, though, I'd rather see him go for a GOOD package. Not sure what that'd be, but I'd be happy with a Vermette, Meszaros, and 1st.

Or...if he's going to sign an offer sheet, for some reason, that's too much for the team, I'd be happy with the 4 1sts. (We can then trade them to the team with the number pick for Tavares. )
I'm not crazy about Meszaros, he didn't have a good season. Not saying he's not a good defenseman, but what the hell? Lol. Maybe it was coaching changes and what not but who knows, Alls I know is that he didnt do well and I'd be hesitant to put him into Bouw's position.

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07-02-2008, 02:28 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by pukboy8 View Post
If an offer sheet is how he goes, and Jaques doesn't use some of the room we'll have under the cap to replace Jay, we might not have to trade for that 1st overall.
Agreed. I'd imagine who would, though, I don't know who'd be available at that point.

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07-02-2008, 02:30 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Nate The Great View Post
I'm not crazy about Meszaros, he didn't have a good season. Not saying he's not a good defenseman, but what the hell? Lol. Maybe it was coaching changes and what not but who knows, Alls I know is that he didnt do well and I'd be hesitant to put him into Bouw's position.
I agree . If we're dealing with Ottawa, I think I would rather we do something like Jay Bo for Spezza type deal. Maybe throw in something on our side so they add Meszaros, but I would be unhappy if the deal centered around Meszaros and Vermette.

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07-02-2008, 02:34 PM
  #79
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If it comes down to us trading Bouw, then we HAVE to get an offensive weapon in return and thats why I keep using the Devils as a trading partner. They need a #1 Dman, and we need offense, which why I say if JM is going to trade Bouw, call the Devils and get a Bouw for Parise swap. Both players are very young, both have tremendous upside and both would give each team exactly what they need.

However, when all is said and done, I am confident that Bouw is going to remain a Panther. JM has a hardon for D as we all know, and his big thing is puck moving Dman, and we have that in Bouw. He is our best guy, I just cant see him going. Call me biased, whatever, I believe Bouw will be staying.

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07-02-2008, 02:36 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Panthers_Fan View Post
I agree . If we're dealing with Ottawa, I think I would rather we do something like Jay Bo for Spezza type deal. Maybe throw in something on our side so they add Meszaros, but I would be unhappy if the deal centered around Meszaros and Vermette.
I agree. Trading Bouw would bring a much bigger and better return that Meszaros and Vermette. Im not saying they are not good, but I do agree about having a deal involving Spezza if we look to trade with OTT.

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07-02-2008, 02:40 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_CATS_FAN View Post
I agree. Trading Bouw would bring a much bigger and better return that Meszaros and Vermette. Im not saying they are not good, but I do agree about having a deal involving Spezza if we look to trade with OTT.
Hi im Jacque Martin. I would like to respectfully disagree.

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07-02-2008, 02:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Hi im Jacque Martin. I would like to respectfully disagree.
Well Hi Jacques, WE NEED OFFENSE!!!!!! We are already loaded at D, WE NEED OFFENSE!!!!!. I dont care how big of a hard on you have for D, our D is set. We just traded our best offensive weapon, you must replace him. NO MORE D. BRING US OFFENSE!!!!!

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07-02-2008, 02:54 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by NJ_CATS_FAN View Post
Well Hi Jacques, WE NEED OFFENSE!!!!!! We are already loaded at D, WE NEED OFFENSE!!!!!. I dont care how big of a hard on you have for D, our D is set. We just traded our best offensive weapon, you must replace him. NO MORE D. BRING US OFFENSE!!!!!
Olli was replaced by Stillman. 75% of the cost, 75-90% of the player. 110% of the leadership from what I'm reading.

But anyway you apparently missed the sarcastic intent of J17's post. Since we got less for Jokinen and it was all defense, he's suggesting JM would gladly trade Bouw for...more defense.

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07-02-2008, 02:54 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by NJ_CATS_FAN View Post
If it comes down to us trading Bouw, then we HAVE to get an offensive weapon in return and thats why I keep using the Devils as a trading partner. They need a #1 Dman, and we need offense, which why I say if JM is going to trade Bouw, call the Devils and get a Bouw for Parise swap. Both players are very young, both have tremendous upside and both would give each team exactly what they need.

However, when all is said and done, I am confident that Bouw is going to remain a Panther. JM has a hardon for D as we all know, and his big thing is puck moving Dman, and we have that in Bouw. He is our best guy, I just cant see him going. Call me biased, whatever, I believe Bouw will be staying.
you are dead wrong, imo. this defense, which JM now says he likes and which we've yet to see on the ice, would take a huge hit if jay is traded. we're still lacking up front but there is a fairly solid plan for the future there. if jay goes, we need someone who can fill a large defensive role. it may not be another guy of the same caliber as there aren't that many Dmen out there in that category but they'd have to be very good.

hard to say where this is headed but i'm not surprised nothing's happened yet - it would appear JM is trying to show jay that he's serious about changing the culture here the past couple of weeks and that process is ongoing.

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07-02-2008, 02:59 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
hard to say where this is headed but i'm not surprised nothing's happened yet - it would appear JM is trying to show jay that he's serious about changing the culture here the past couple of weeks and that process is ongoing.
I'm hoping you're right.

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07-02-2008, 03:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Olli was replaced by Stillman. 75% of the cost, 75-90% of the player. 110% of the leadership from what I'm reading.

But anyway you apparently missed the sarcastic intent of J17's post. Since we got less for Jokinen and it was all defense, he's suggesting JM would gladly trade Bouw for...more defense.
I know his post was sarcastic, mine was too. I know what he meant.

I agree that Stillman is 75% of the cost and 110% of the leadership, thats why Im very happy with that signing, but you cannot expect Stillman to replace Ollis offense.

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07-02-2008, 03:19 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
you are dead wrong, imo. this defense, which JM now says he likes and which we've yet to see on the ice, would take a huge hit if jay is traded. we're still lacking up front but there is a fairly solid plan for the future there. if jay goes, we need someone who can fill a large defensive role. it may not be another guy of the same caliber as there aren't that many Dmen out there in that category but they'd have to be very good.

hard to say where this is headed but i'm not surprised nothing's happened yet - it would appear JM is trying to show jay that he's serious about changing the culture here the past couple of weeks and that process is ongoing.
I agree if Bouw is traded we would take a huge hit. Ive said that before, which is why I dont want him traded, but if he is, its not like we dont have anyone. Obviously Jay is our best D-man and we have noone that could replace him, but we have some very good players. Our D would be nowhere near as strong without Bouw, but we do have players that can step in. Its not like if we lose Bouw, we dont have enough players or any good players that cant step in. Like I said, I love the Stillman signing, but he will not produce Ollis offense, but does give us the veteran leadership we really need. We definitely need to add another offensive guy, but trading Bouw would bring us just that. With Bouw, we will have a great defense. Without him, we will still have a very good one. Ballard is going to be a stud, maybe not to Jays level, but he will be very good. If we trade our best player, which happens to be on D, we can add a great player on offense which we need more than D right now. Trading Bouw could land us a sniper, and with a very good D in place as it is, losing Bouw will not cripple us as much as you think. Again, Im not saying losing Bouw wont hurt, but we wont completely fall apart.

I also agree that JM is trying to show Jay hes serious and I believe Jay is waiting to see what this offseason looks like. I also think the Olli situation and the HC situation is also playing a big role in his decision. In the end I think Bouw will be staying a Panther.


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07-02-2008, 03:25 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_CATS_FAN View Post
I know his post was sarcastic, mine was too. I know what he meant.

I agree that Stillman is 75% of the cost and 110% of the leadership, thats why Im very happy with that signing, but you cannot expect Stillman to replace Ollis offense.
Hi im Jacque Martin. In reference to your suggestion of leadership, i respectfully comply with the statement. Leadership, grit and character is a victorious quality for any humanitarian activity. Natural ability is not required.

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07-02-2008, 03:55 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
If he doesn't want to stay, then I don't blame him. If that is the case, though, I'd rather see him go for a GOOD package. Not sure what that'd be, but I'd be happy with a Vermette, Meszaros, and 1st.
You would be able to get Chris Neil and Alex Nikulin with Vermette, Meszaros and a 1st.

Vermette could excel very well with Florida, and he's easily a second line centre, and he would put up over 75 points with 1st line ice time and top powerplay. He put up 53 points with very limited powerplay time and, also a great pker.

Chris Neil, crash and bang, 20 points. You know what you get, unfortunatly he'll be gone with recent signings of Jarkko Ruutu and Shean Donovan.

1st is a small price to pay for Jbo, and Nikulin could very well fight for you line up next season (i'm not sure your forward depth, but the Murray's have even said they think he's already NHL caliber).

Meszaros is interesting, but he's affordable, and if you give him ice time and don't give him a lot of pressure, he'll develop in a great #2 #3 d-man. He's weird in the sense that when the pressure is really on, he's always on top of his game (last half of this season he was one of the only noteworthy players, including playoffs, in the finals he was one of the only players worth noting, as with that entire playoff run, and when Spezza, Fisher, and Vermette all went down with injury that same year, and we needed offense in other areas, he was one of the catalysts to the turn around and took matters into his own hands, and there are a few more examples).

It may be quantity, but it is quality.

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07-02-2008, 04:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by NJ_CATS_FAN View Post
I agree if Bouw is traded we would take a huge hit. Ive said that before, which is why I dont want him traded, but if he is, its not like we dont have anyone. Obviously Jay is our best D-man and we have noone that could replace him, but we have some very good players. Our D would be nowhere near as strong without Bouw, but we do have players that can step in. Its not like if we lose Bouw, we dont have enough players or any good players that cant step in. Like I said, I love the Stillman signing, but he will not produce Ollis offense, but does give us the veteran leadership we really need. We definitely need to add another offensive guy, but trading Bouw would bring us just that. With Bouw, we will have a great defense. Without him, we will still have a very good one. Ballard is going to be a stud, maybe not to Jays level, but he will be very good. If we trade our best player, which happens to be on D, we can add a great player on offense which we need more than D right now. Trading Bouw could land us a sniper, and with a very good D in place as it is, losing Bouw will not cripple us as much as you think. Again, Im not saying losing Bouw wont hurt, but we wont completely fall apart.

I also agree that JM is trying to show Jay hes serious and I believe Jay is waiting to see what this offseason looks like. I also think the Olli situation and the HC situation is also playing a big role in his decision. In the end I think Bouw will be staying a Panther.
you are not getting it - we can compete for a playoff spot with the current group of Fs, even before stillman's signing. easily *compete*, and that is the point. we are not going to contend next year. would i like a big name sniper for 1 year? yeah. would i like a big name sniper for jay? no way in hell. beyond next year, there is no room if you're looking at who's coming up. the right time to bring in someone like that would be 1-3 years down the road when you've had a chance to evaluate the kids and have a better idea of what you really have.

meanwhile, if you remove jay from the D, we have major problems as the top minutes guy, best puck mover (right now - we'll see about ballard, van ryn, etc.) and best shutdown guy is gone. all of the sudden, the keystone is missing and the defense is back in the same place it was last year. that would be a recipe for a disaster heading into next season.

if jay is moved, it will be for a very good defenseman. has to be.

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07-02-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Olli was replaced by Stillman. 75% of the cost, 75-90% of the player. 110% of the leadership from what I'm reading.

But anyway you apparently missed the sarcastic intent of J17's post. Since we got less for Jokinen and it was all defense, he's suggesting JM would gladly trade Bouw for...more defense.
Stillman DID NOT REPLACE JOKINEN. He's the winger Jokinen's line needed. JM, unsurprisingly, got things a little ass backward.

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07-02-2008, 04:40 PM
  #92
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you are not getting it - we can compete for a playoff spot with the current group of Fs, even before stillman's signing. easily *compete*, and that is the point. we are not going to contend next year. would i like a big name sniper for 1 year? yeah. would i like a big name sniper for jay? no way in hell. beyond next year, there is no room if you're looking at who's coming up. the right time to bring in someone like that would be 1-3 years down the road when you've had a chance to evaluate the kids and have a better idea of what you really have.

meanwhile, if you remove jay from the D, we have major problems as the top minutes guy, best puck mover (right now - we'll see about ballard, van ryn, etc.) and best shutdown guy is gone. all of the sudden, the keystone is missing and the defense is back in the same place it was last year. that would be a recipe for a disaster heading into next season.

if jay is moved, it will be for a very good defenseman. has to be.
I dont think so, but we will just have to wait and see. The Rangers just got Zherdev by giving up Tyutin (sp). While the other 2 players involved are nothing to get excited about, Bouw is alot better than Tyutin and if he can return a guy like Zherdev, then that shows the type of return we could get for Bouw.

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07-02-2008, 04:51 PM
  #93
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If an offer sheet is going to come for Bouwmeester, it wouldn't come on day #1 of the UFA period. It is going to come in the fallout afterwards from a team that didn't get the player they wanted (i.e. Redden, Campbell, etc.) FA signings are often about PR & perception as much (if not more) than they are about bettering your team. Even though the Panthers would match, a team may still make an offer to JayBo if just to say to their fans "Hey, it isn't like we tried to do something."

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07-02-2008, 04:54 PM
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Both Buffalo and Ottawa are in the market for an elite D-man which there are none left in free agency.

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07-02-2008, 04:56 PM
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I dont think so, but we will just have to wait and see. The Rangers just got Zherdev by giving up Tyutin (sp). While the other 2 players involved are nothing to get excited about, Bouw is alot better than Tyutin and if he can return a guy like Zherdev, then that shows the type of return we could get for Bouw.
again, completely missing the point. i KNOW what we could get with jay. i simply don't think that makes us a better team, either in the short term OR the long term. i'm willing to hear some reasoning to the contrary but you haven't provided any as of yet.

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07-02-2008, 05:03 PM
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again, completely missing the point. i KNOW what we could get with jay. i simply don't think that makes us a better team, either in the short term OR the long term. i'm willing to hear some reasoning to the contrary but you haven't provided any as of yet.
Easy. The Cats are hoping Ballard can be a poor man's Bouwmeester and hope Ellerby advances quickly in their system in a year or two. There are replacements for Bouw in the Organization, not quite as good but suitable enough.

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07-02-2008, 05:30 PM
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Stillman DID NOT REPLACE JOKINEN. He's the winger Jokinen's line needed. JM, unsurprisingly, got things a little ass backward.
Good point

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07-02-2008, 05:41 PM
  #98
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again, completely missing the point. i KNOW what we could get with jay. i simply don't think that makes us a better team, either in the short term OR the long term. i'm willing to hear some reasoning to the contrary but you haven't provided any as of yet.
Lets see if you can understand this. Im going to use a guy like Gaborik as an example. With Bouw our defense is very good. If we lose Bouw, our D will still be very good. Of course we dont have a guy at Bouws level who would replace him, but we have guys who could step in. You make it sound like if Bouw leaves, we are going to completely fall apart. Of course it will be a blow to the team without him, but the point is we have guys who can step in. If you trade a guy like Bouw and bring in a, lets say Gaborik, the money you would throw at Bouw, you give to Gaborik and sign him for the future. By doing that you add a dangerous weapon on offense and still have a good defense. You need to have both, a good defense and a good offense. We have guys on offense who are good, and have some prospects that will be around in a short time. By trading a guy like Bouw, that would be another addition by subtraction. We would get a very good return, and since we have plenty of guys on D that would step in, we focus on the other side to offense and then you are set for now and the future.

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07-02-2008, 05:59 PM
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Lets see if you can understand this. Im going to use a guy like Gaborik as an example. With Bouw our defense is very good. If we lose Bouw, our D will still be very good. Of course we dont have a guy at Bouws level who would replace him, but we have guys who could step in. You make it sound like if Bouw leaves, we are going to completely fall apart. Of course it will be a blow to the team without him, but the point is we have guys who can step in. If you trade a guy like Bouw and bring in a, lets say Gaborik, the money you would throw at Bouw, you give to Gaborik and sign him for the future. By doing that you add a dangerous weapon on offense and still have a good defense. You need to have both, a good defense and a good offense. We have guys on offense who are good, and have some prospects that will be around in a short time. By trading a guy like Bouw, that would be another addition by subtraction. We would get a very good return, and since we have plenty of guys on D that would step in, we focus on the other side to offense and then you are set for now and the future.
you're off track already. not even going to read further. how could we be very good with and without him??? you cannot. with him, we're still an unknown - not as good on paper as detroit, say, but better than some others (at least on paper). without him, things are very much up in the air (if you calibrate based on last year, when we thought we were pretty deep and solid and a few injuries and poor performance turned our D into a sieve). remove jay and you need to plug someone else real good into the equation.

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07-02-2008, 06:12 PM
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You're point is valid, but if players don't want to play here they don't have to sign or they can ask to be traded (i.e Jokinen). Just b/c I, 1 fan, am not gaga over a defensemen who hasn't really proved anything in my eyes as being elite. I do give him props for his skating ability which he has had all along. He is a soft player that has a personality that carries to the ice. I do not want that on this roster and would try to find the best bidder for his services and pack his bags. This team needs players that show emotion and prove their worth. Bouw got 25-27 minutes because he is the Panthers best defenseman. He's not a top 10, more or less a top 20 Dman. I don't blame him for not wanting to stay. He's played under a bad Front office which is now (after 8-12years) starting to make its finger prints on the franchise.
Bouw gets 25 minutes a game because he is capable of handling the load. If he wasn't those extra minutes would be easily distributed among other defensemen. If he is traded the team would have defensemen playing out of thier roles. It would be disastrous and it would undermine JMs "philosophy." What would you know of Bouwmeesters personality in the locker room or on the ice ? Nothing. You only know his personality from media appearances. He is not being paid to do media appearances. He is being paid to get results on the ice. Look at the statistics.


Why don't you list the 20 defensemen that are better than Bouwmeester ?

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