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Old
07-11-2008, 01:18 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Martin puppet? What does that mean?

I've seen Olli play hard and I've seen what looks like him floating to me. It looked to me like he was floating the last several games of the season. Especially the games I saw in person.
It means Gorten seems to buy everything Martin and his inner circle feeds him. Or then he doesn't have a mind of his own. Most of all it means I got mad as ... edited it myself.

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07-11-2008, 01:34 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post

I've seen Olli play hard and I've seen what looks like him floating to me. It looked to me like he was floating the last several games of the season. Especially the games I saw in person.
Joke has always been sort of a floater. It didn't start at the end of last season. He was a floater in Finland already.

And I'm not at all a Joke fan. I have wanted him gone for a time now, since I have felt that he is a hindrance(?) to the team's development in some way (I want us to be in control of a game, in control of the puck - it's not Joke's style).

However, this Joke bashing on this board done quietly but relentlessly by some posters is beyond me. Joke is an up-front type of a person. He and Martin never did get along. I think Martin should have just traded him. But he needed to make Joke look bad in media to save his own behind.

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07-11-2008, 01:37 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
It means Gorten seems to buy everything Martin and his inner circle feeds him. Or then he doesn't have a mind of his own. Most of all it means I got mad as ... edited it myself.
I don't think he's puppet, the whole "Martin puppet" business is getting ridiculous. Especially since I believe he was quoting Cohen. (It was a quote that I saw, you may want to check things out before posting)

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07-11-2008, 01:40 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
Joke has always been sort of a floater. It didn't start at the end of last season. He was a floater in Finland already.

And I'm not at all a Joke fan. I have wanted him gone for a time now, since I have felt that he is a hindrance(?) to the team's development in some way (I want us to be in control of a game, in control of the puck - it's not Joke's style).

However, this Joke bashing on this board done quietly but relentlessly by some posters is beyond me. Joke is an up-front type of a person. He and Martin never did get along. I think Martin should have just traded him. But he needed to make Joke look bad in media to save his own behind.
A lot of people around here have been on Olli for some time now, it's not all that new, it's just more regular now.

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07-11-2008, 01:52 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I don't think he's puppet, the whole "Martin puppet" business is getting ridiculous. Especially since I believe he was quoting Cohen. (It was a quote that I saw, you may want to check things out before posting)
I have never seen the article, but MisterBouw brought it forward as a piece of evidence that point heavily to Joke being cancer.

Anyway, to write something like that - I don't like you Martin, so I play badly so that we don't make the playoffs, and then you get fired. I don't care about anything else - is not very smart in my mind. Joke is not 5 years old, is he?

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07-11-2008, 01:57 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I don't think he's puppet, the whole "Martin puppet" business is getting ridiculous. Especially since I believe he was quoting Cohen. (It was a quote that I saw, you may want to check things out before posting)
the way i see it (and this is going to sound harsh), most of the writers down there are, essentially, puppets - they don't know enough about the game or have the passion for the culture to really dig in and develop their own opinions. this is above and beyond the normal stuff that goes on between the press and their subjects (in any field) whereby writers self-censor and hold their tongue so as not disturb their access/status.

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07-11-2008, 02:17 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
Joke has always been sort of a floater. It didn't start at the end of last season. He was a floater in Finland already.

And I'm not at all a Joke fan. I have wanted him gone for a time now, since I have felt that he is a hindrance(?) to the team's development in some way (I want us to be in control of a game, in control of the puck - it's not Joke's style).

However, this Joke bashing on this board done quietly but relentlessly by some posters is beyond me. Joke is an up-front type of a person. He and Martin never did get along. I think Martin should have just traded him. But he needed to make Joke look bad in media to save his own behind.
i completely agree with your assessment of olli. i have called him out since day 1 of his panthers tenure. why can't i bash a guy who is not playing hockey the way it should be played, who apparently thinks he's such a tremendous offensive talent that he only needs to try at that end of the ice? i don't care if he's up-front - i don't like his style of hockey and never have. i don't think he's ever going to be the key ingredient to a championship. i'm glad to see him gone.

as to how JM handled the situation - if you followed what went on here, you would know that olli had the upper hand for most of the battle (he was the team's leading scorer, captain and biggest name and had cozied up to the owner). things turned when JM started playing the game on olli's terms. having said that, i've repeated time after time here that JM was well within the bounds of both taste and his authority when he criticized olli. he said what he said once or twice and that was it. it was not at all what some around here have made it out to be.


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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I have never seen the article, but MisterBouw brought it forward as a piece of evidence that point heavily to Joke being cancer.

Anyway, to write something like that - I don't like you Martin, so I play badly so that we don't make the playoffs, and then you get fired. I don't care about anything else - is not very smart in my mind. Joke is not 5 years old, is he?
well... not 5 but perhaps 12. i don't know olli personally but something about the way he carries himself has always rubbed me the wrong way. i don't like his on-ice whining, mannerisms (not captain-like at all) and his cockiness out there disgusts me sometimes. so, no, it would not surprise me in the least to hear that he pulled something like. he seems like the kind of guy - kind of an ass with a giant ego, thinks he's *the* man - who would tank like that, knowing he was in with the owner and would get the benefit of the doubt. he was a fool to come out and take the blame and JM was smart to tie the noose with the rope olli gave him. i said at the time of that blow up that olli screwed himself and JM played it smart. nobody here believed me but that is precisely what came to pass; what could have been a disaster for this organization - olli staying and JM going - turned around on a dime and things have worked out very well, imo.

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07-11-2008, 02:50 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i completely agree with your assessment of olli. i have called him out since day 1 of his panthers tenure. why can't i bash a guy who is not playing hockey the way it should be played, who apparently thinks he's such a tremendous offensive talent that he only needs to try at that end of the ice? i don't care if he's up-front - i don't like his style of hockey and never have. i don't think he's ever going to be the key ingredient to a championship. i'm glad to see him gone.

as to how JM handled the situation - if you followed what went on here, you would know that olli had the upper hand for most of the battle (he was the team's leading scorer, captain and biggest name and had cozied up to the owner). things turned when JM started playing the game on olli's terms. having said that, i've repeated time after time here that JM was well within the bounds of both taste and his authority when he criticized olli. he said what he said once or twice and that was it. it was not at all what some around here have made it out to be.




well... not 5 but perhaps 12. i don't know olli personally but something about the way he carries himself has always rubbed me the wrong way. i don't like his on-ice whining, mannerisms (not captain-like at all) and his cockiness out there disgusts me sometimes. so, no, it would not surprise me in the least to hear that he pulled something like. he seems like the kind of guy - kind of an ass with a giant ego, thinks he's *the* man - who would tank like that, knowing he was in with the owner and would get the benefit of the doubt. he was a fool to come out and take the blame and JM was smart to tie the noose with the rope olli gave him. i said at the time of that blow up that olli screwed himself and JM played it smart. nobody here believed me but that is precisely what came to pass; what could have been a disaster for this organization - olli staying and JM going - turned around on a dime and things have worked out very well, imo.
If you ask me, you are very well entitled to bash his game. Which is something we both seem to agree upon.

However, it is not so much what Martin said (or how many times he said it; players may and should be called out at times), but the timing for Martin's critizism of Joke. I think it was too late, and served nothing except the good of Martin himself. So there we differ in opinion.

I also don't like everything in Joke's character, and he does seem to be a bit childish, but I believe he is sincere. He is what he is. A bit naive. Which led to him taking the blame and being Martin's feast.

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07-11-2008, 03:12 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I have never seen the article, but MisterBouw brought it forward as a piece of evidence that point heavily to Joke being cancer.

Anyway, to write something like that - I don't like you Martin, so I play badly so that we don't make the playoffs, and then you get fired. I don't care about anything else - is not very smart in my mind. Joke is not 5 years old, is he?
No, but I'm really not too sure who you're calling out here Olli or Gorten? I'm certainly no supporter of Gorten and think he's only a step above Biggane, who I absolutely can't stand. I like Richards only because he seems to be the only one who's more on top of things and doesn't make things up.

That said, as I said, I think Gorten was quoting Cohen who said that he challenged Olli to push the team into the platoffs and he didn't do that. I can't find the article, but I remember it was Cohen who'd said it, not Martin. Perhaps Martin said something similiar, though. Isn't a reporter supposed to quote and report?

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07-11-2008, 03:25 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
If you ask me, you are very well entitled to bash his game. Which is something we both seem to agree upon.

However, it is not so much what Martin said (or how many times he said it; players may and should be called out at times), but the timing for Martin's critizism of Joke. I think it was too late, and served nothing except the good of Martin himself. So there we differ in opinion.

I also don't like everything in Joke's character, and he does seem to be a bit childish, but I believe he is sincere. He is what he is. A bit naive. Which led to him taking the blame and being Martin's feast.
actually, we are in total agreement tuco - i DO think that JM was playing politics when he criticized olli and said above that i agreed with the move both then and now as it was, perhaps, what saved him - he appeared to be between a rock and a hard place until olli came out and said what he said. fortunately for us, things have worked out. wouldn't it have been a disaster if olli had out-muscled/politicked the GM/coach? talk about a banana republic.

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07-11-2008, 03:47 PM
  #136
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actually, we are in total agreement tuco - i DO think that JM was playing politics when he criticized olli and said above that i agreed with the move both then and now as it was, perhaps, what saved him - he appeared to be between a rock and a hard place until olli came out and said what he said. fortunately for us, things have worked out. wouldn't it have been a disaster if olli had out-muscled/politicked the GM/coach? talk about a banana republic.
I understand you completely now zeroG. And agree. Except that after the season I wanted both of them gone. Joke for the reasons mentioned above, and Martin because he was both GM and coach. And the fact that still, even today, he IMO hasn't taken any responsibility. Then again, I don't know if any other GM would make this a better Pantherland either. Hopefully DeBoer makes it more entertaining.

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07-11-2008, 03:53 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No, but I'm really not too sure who you're calling out here Olli or Gorten? I'm certainly no supporter of Gorten and think he's only a step above Biggane, who I absolutely can't stand. I like Richards only because he seems to be the only one who's more on top of things and doesn't make things up.

That said, as I said, I think Gorten was quoting Cohen who said that he challenged Olli to push the team into the platoffs and he didn't do that. I can't find the article, but I remember it was Cohen who'd said it, not Martin. Perhaps Martin said something similiar, though. Isn't a reporter supposed to quote and report?
Well I'm trying to say that IMO it's not just rational to think the way Gorten wrote. No way Joke tanked the season IMO. When he saw us not making the playoffs again, I think he faded unintentionally. His heart was not there anymore. He needed to go, and he kind of understood it. But he needs no more calling out.

After I heard that Gorten was just quoting something (especially if it was Cohen) an executive said, it's not that bad anymore. However, I do think that reporters should have a high standard of what they write. Not to write just something that sells.

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07-11-2008, 07:12 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No, but I'm really not too sure who you're calling out here Olli or Gorten? I'm certainly no supporter of Gorten and think he's only a step above Biggane, who I absolutely can't stand. I like Richards only because he seems to be the only one who's more on top of things and doesn't make things up.

That said, as I said, I think Gorten was quoting Cohen who said that he challenged Olli to push the team into the platoffs and he didn't do that. I can't find the article, but I remember it was Cohen who'd said it, not Martin. Perhaps Martin said something similiar, though. Isn't a reporter supposed to quote and report?
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Well I'm trying to say that IMO it's not just rational to think the way Gorten wrote. No way Joke tanked the season IMO. When he saw us not making the playoffs again, I think he faded unintentionally. His heart was not there anymore. He needed to go, and he kind of understood it. But he needs no more calling out.

After I heard that Gorten was just quoting something (especially if it was Cohen) an executive said, it's not that bad anymore. However, I do think that reporters should have a high standard of what they write. Not to write just something that sells.

Actually, the article I'm talking about was something different. Gorten said that he got info from an undisclosed source that Olli purposely dogged it down the stretch in hopes that it would get Martin fired. I'll try to find the link, but it was already posted here on this board in another thread, and I'm confident others here have seen it.

Do I believe it's possible? Yes. Olli may have figured that we were too far out anyway(even though you're not supposed to think like that), and he was going to make sure he did everything in his power to get Martin fired. Do I absolutely believe it 100%? No. But it's possible. It's just one more of the many pieces of evidence that Olli was a negative influence in the locker room.

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07-11-2008, 07:45 PM
  #139
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Here was the quote from the blog MB is talking about. I found it on the official Panthers board. The link was to Gorten's blog (current), I just think it was too long ago so it dropped off.

Quote:
A trusted source told me tonight that ultimately, the reason Jokinen was traded is because coming down the stretch the final 20 games, he was so consumed by his dislike for Martin, that it meant more to him that Martin was fired than that the Panthers made the playoffs. In essence, he didn't put the team first, he put his personal feelings toward Martin first.
-ghoste

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07-11-2008, 07:51 PM
  #140
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Here was the quote from the blog MB is talking about. I found it on the official Panthers board. The link was to Gorten's blog (current), I just think it was too long ago so it dropped off.



-ghoste
LOL. You rock, man. I knew I'd never find it, it was too old.

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07-11-2008, 07:58 PM
  #141
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Guys please keep it on topic. This thread is about the Cory Stillman signing, not the worth, play, etc. of Olli Jokinen. It's alright to talk about what it means to have him over Jokinen, but please let's not diverge into a Martin/Jokinen fight. Thanks.

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07-11-2008, 10:46 PM
  #142
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hey MisterBouw is that Markstrom on your new avatar?
Yep.

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07-12-2008, 12:33 AM
  #143
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I agree it's a possibility. He even had the perfect cover in the Zednik incident to use as an excuse he was playing bad if that were the case. None of us here know how long it would take to come back from something like that but just pointing out that if indeed he had gotten through it and was back to normal that he could have used that as the excuse and dogged it to try and get JM canned. Just aggreeing it was possible. Althoug nobody will ever really know for sure except for Jokinen if he indeed was still affected or if he was better and was just dogging it! Either way, It's over he is gone. And I'd like to think we replaced him with Stillman, Ballard, Boynton & Robak!!! Not a bad trade huh!

hey MisterBouw is that Markstrom on your new avatar?

I agree. Ballard and Stillman are the same price as Jokinen too.

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07-12-2008, 12:40 AM
  #144
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Thats why with so much free agency it is really dumb to judge trades. Sometimes your just clearing space for someone to come in for free.
So in affect it is Stillman, Ballard, Boynton and Robak for Jokinen.

Like San Jose giving a first and Bernier for Campbell as a rental. Dumb move, except that they replace him with Blake for free.


Sometimes its more important to get a need with a pick and fill in later. It seems that puck moving defenseman like Ballard are harder to get so you have to give up Jokinen, but you fill his spot with a free Stillman.

Assets in a cap system with many free agents arent as valuable as they once were. If people were giving houses away for free, you would have a harder time getting someone to pay top dollar for yours.

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07-16-2008, 04:43 PM
  #145
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Interesting Analysis Of The Stillman Signing

NUMBERS GAME: PANTHERS PAY FOR EXPERIENCE
SCOTT CULLEN
7/16/2008 4:38:03 PM

"If Stillman is going to be productive in Florida, it will depend on his linemates, who will likely need to elevate their play if they are going to help Stillman to his typical 60-to-70 point season.

If we can assume that Florida's number one line is set (David Booth-Stephen Weiss-Nathan Horton), that leaves Rostislav Olesz and Richard Zednik as the best offensive players returning while rookies Michal Frolik and Shawn Matthias may also have a shot to play and none of them -- the top line inlcuded -- scored more than 62 points last year.

Given that supporting cast, Stillman could see his scoring numbers slide and if those numbers start moving down as he's in his mid-30s, it could be tough for them to get any better over the remaining years of this contract."

"It's tough to criticize a team for getting a solid citizen who brings much-needed skill to the game, but it's at least fair to wonder if the Panthers are going to regret the final year of this trade if Stillman's production doesn't remain at its current level."

The rest of the article which is an in depth analysis of Florida signing Stillman is located here.

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/scott_c...=headlines_nhl

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