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Old
07-02-2008, 04:36 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I knew it - I knew it - I knew it........... This is not a long term plan for the fans - this potential signing is manipulation by Katz.........



Katz is planning to sell our future - we lose Gagner / Grebeshkov / Horcoff, etc... to make a Stanley Cup push this season...

Katz wants taxpayer money for his new arena - we are nothing but pawns - our talented prospects (& future) are all going elsewhere...

What a corporate welfare bum - Katz makes Pocklington look like Mother Theresa................ What a complete slimebucket he is.......

Time for a boycott of Katz's companies...............
I take it back - you don't need anymore liquor - you've had enough.

Where did it say "Katz is planning to sell our future"?

Christ man - give it up already.

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07-02-2008, 04:37 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Sheikyerbouti View Post
I hate Souray's contract, but we lose toughness, leadership and defense if we trade him and have to look outside the organization for his replacement. We are a little short in players that can clear the front of the net like Souray and a solid replacement level player isn't going to cost 875k.

Edit: All that for Staios too ;-)

I have to agree, I think the Oilers that chalenge for the Cup in 09' have Shelly and Lubo on the #1PP - We just dealt our second hardest shot from the point and I dont see anyone else with the ability to score from that position. Smid, Grebs, Gilbert and Staios have muffins from the blueline compared to Souray.

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07-02-2008, 04:40 AM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I knew it - I knew it - I knew it........... This is not a long term plan for the fans - this potential signing is manipulation by Katz.........



Katz is planning to sell our future - we lose Gagner / Grebeshkov / Horcoff, etc... to make a Stanley Cup push this season...

Katz wants taxpayer money for his new arena - we are nothing but pawns - our talented prospects (& future) are all going elsewhere...

What a corporate welfare bum - Katz makes Pocklington look like Mother Theresa................ What a complete slimebucket he is.......

Time for a boycott of Katz's companies...............


Lay off the sauce

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07-02-2008, 04:46 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
According to 1260 nhlnumbers is wrong, and we have something like 6 million left to commit.

I think we can make the deal work, it's just a matter of having Hossa's signature on the contract.
My numbers add up to 51.7M$ with 10F, 7D, 3G. If we shed Roloson and Staios, we'd be at 45.4M$ with 10F, 6D, 2G. So we'd have 12.3M$ to sign Hossa, 1-3 more forwards, and a pressbox D-man. We could save a bit more cap space by running with a 21 or 22-man roster.

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07-02-2008, 04:46 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by 420ilerBuzz View Post

Where did it say "Katz is planning to sell our future"?
When we lose two of Horcoff / Grebeshkov / Cole next summer because we have no salary cap room to pay them more than a $1 million..... When Gagner or Cogliano is gone the following year......

Our future is sold - so Katz can create an illusion of a dynasty.......

Peter Pocklington "part two"................ The guy is slime...........

Now I know why they don't allow us to have guns in Canada............

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07-02-2008, 04:57 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
When we lose two of Horcoff / Grebeshkov / Cole next summer because we have no salary cap room to pay them more than a $1 million..... When Gagner or Cogliano is gone the following year......

Our future is sold - so Katz can create an illusion of a dynasty.......

Peter Pocklington "part two"................ The guy is slime...........

Now I know why they don't allow us to have guns in Canada............
I hope that its sarcasm.

But in all honesty, if the cap goes up another 6 million next season, we should have enough to re-sign Horcoff (2.5 more), Garon (3.5 more), and Brodziak (1.5 more). And if it comes down to it, re-signing Cole shouldn't be too much of a problem either. Losing Roli's cap hit, getting rid of one of Grebs/Smid/Roy and one of Schremp/Reddox/Spurgeon ought to open up space to operate in 09-10.

This, of course, assuming we drop the 4 million that we need to fit Hossa under the cap.

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07-02-2008, 04:58 AM
  #357
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I'm surprised I didn't get flamed yet...
But I just want to add to my proposal earlier that trading Horc to MTL also gives them compensation to back off from Hossa, seeing how aggressive the Oilers tactics are at the moment, I think they might use this kind of strategy...

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07-02-2008, 05:01 AM
  #358
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Another thing to think about.... We will not be like the Flames and have to fill out our roster with pluggers. Why? Because we have solid prospect depth and guys that could step in and fill the voids in the lineup.

Scoring forward Prospects: Schremp, Brule, Eberle, Trukhno, Nash, Omark
Defensive minded prospects: O marra, Spurgeon, Vande Velde, Kytner
Defensive prospects : Petry, Chorney, Pechkam, Plante, Hrabel

Who knows? What if Brule steps it up and has a solid year and makes another forward expendable? What if Hrabel steps in ala Hejda and plays great? What if Gagner shows he can be a number one center in this league and makes Horc or Cogliano expendable? Two years ago we were wondering about how we were going to resign Stoll, Torres, Staios, Pitkanen. Now, almost all these guys have been traded or deemed expendable. Once the young guns step up we will have room to ditch older players.

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07-02-2008, 05:02 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by enthropi View Post
I'm surprised I didn't get flamed yet...
But I just want to add to my proposal earlier that trading Horc to MTL also gives them compensation to back off from Hossa, seeing how aggressive the Oilers tactics are at the moment, I think they might use this kind of strategy...
Horcoff isn't going anywhere, he had a all star (1/2)season and was clutch in the shootout. He's also moving up the ranks in the nhlpa and is a good guy to have on the team as a cheerleader.

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07-02-2008, 05:04 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
When we lose two of Horcoff / Grebeshkov / Cole next summer because we have no salary cap room to pay them more than a $1 million..... When Gagner or Cogliano is gone the following year......
I've pretty much penciled Grebs out of the lineup next year anyhow - He'll ask for $3M to $4M/yr and as a No.4 / No.5 D-man that's serious cash. It's between him, Staios, and Gilbert at that point.

Horcoff + Garon we should nice raises to when the cap goes up. My ONLY worry is Brodziak. If he breaks out, he's going to get a fat raise like Backes/Penner.

I'd worry about cap room next year just sign Hossa please.

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07-02-2008, 05:08 AM
  #361
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Lay off the sauce
For all you infatuated with the notion of Hossa in an Oilers uniform, the reality check is that after the age of 29, Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri never again played an entire season at a peak level, while Glenn Anderson's very best days were over at age 28.

http://communities.canada.com/edmont...y/default.aspx


We are going to pay Hossa $9 million per season when he is way, way past his prime - when he might be a 40 point player..........


Why was I one "of the few" questioning the stupidity of the offer before Staples gave additional information... When something does not make sense, it is because something is wrong - seriously wrong...

You are just pawns in Katz's manipulation to get our taxes........ Just for the record, I just saved every post in this topic thread + the Staples column......

Not one of you dare whine when we lose our core over the next two summers because there is no salary cap room..........

I am going to throw your quotes in your faces as we become the Toronto Maple Leafs "Western Canada".........

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07-02-2008, 05:18 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
Horcoff isn't going anywhere, he had a all star (1/2)season and was clutch in the shootout. He's also moving up the ranks in the nhlpa and is a good guy to have on the team as a cheerleader.
No kidding, tell me something I don't know... But seriously, you think we can keep him next year if we sign Hossa AND Gagner the year after?

PS: anyone in the NHLPA is usually encouraged to make full use of the UFA status... I like Horc and our chances for a cup are definitely better with him, but something's gotta give... I'd much rather keep him, but like I said, Lowe seems to be taking care of ANY question mark and his impending UFA and whether he can reproduce his production are one of them... and truth is, our former logjam on the bottom 6 is now on the top 6 (IF Hossa is signed that is)...

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07-02-2008, 05:22 AM
  #363
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Maybe back in the day that was true, but to be honest the Oilers training and diet habits in the 80s were a bit of a joke. They partied a lot also.

Iginla is a few years older than Hossa and has put up 2 of his 3 highest scoring seasons (94 and 98 points) after the age of 29.

Also Horcoff is the same age as Hossa. Older actually. So what do we do with him? He's going to want $6 million either way.

Jagr had his 3rd best season ever (123 points) at age 33/34.

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07-02-2008, 05:23 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
For all you infatuated with the notion of Hossa in an Oilers uniform, the reality check is that after the age of 29, Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri never again played an entire season at a peak level, while Glenn Anderson's very best days were over at age 28.

http://communities.canada.com/edmont...y/default.aspx


We are going to pay Hossa $9 million per season when he is way, way past his prime - when he might be a 40 point player..........


Why was I one "of the few" questioning the stupidity of the offer before Staples gave additional information... When something does not make sense, it is because something is wrong - seriously wrong...

You are just pawns in Katz's manipulation to get our taxes........ Just for the record, I just saved every post in this topic thread + the Staples column......

Not one of you dare whine when we lose our core over the next two summers because there is no salary cap room..........

I am going to throw your quotes in your faces as we become the Toronto Maple Leafs "Western Canada".........
I have no doubt by the end of the contract Hossa will be overpaid but he will cover the bets nicely in the first few years. You're completely over-reacting, at first I thought you were being facetious but I'm starting to think you're serious with this and it's scary. I don't think we're going to lose the core if we sign Hossa, we'll just have to keep filling out the bottom 6 with cheap options and kids.

And like someone else pointed out weren't you the one who justified paying Morozov 4.5 million as he was the "#1 UFA on planet Earth"? A guy not even playing in the NHL? We don't have to rehash the issue but that hardly counts as being prudent in terms of the salary cap.

I don't understand your need to insult everyone who disagrees with you on this issue. I'm smart enough to not buy into the conspiracy theory crap and I know that I'm not a "pawn". I just want to see elite and established talent on the roster once again and I believe Hossa is that.

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07-02-2008, 05:25 AM
  #365
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Anyways I'm off to bed and hoping I wake up to see Hossa an Oiler. Who would have thought that a remote possibility?

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07-02-2008, 05:32 AM
  #366
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And like someone else pointed out weren't you the one who justified paying Morozov 4.5 million as he was the "#1 UFA on planet Earth"? A guy not even playing in the NHL? We don't have to rehash the issue but that hardly counts as being prudent in terms of the salary cap.
There is a major, major difference between my promotion of 31 year old Morozov on a 3 year contract for less than $5 million per season....

Compared to promoting a 31 year Hossa on a 7 year contract at $9 million per season...

One fits the immediate needs while addressing the future - the other meets immediate needs while destroying the future.....

Hossa on a 7 year contract at 9 million per season destroys the Oilers future..........

But why admit the truth when personal slights will suffice............

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07-02-2008, 05:43 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
There is a major, major difference between my promotion of 31 year old Morozov on a 3 year contract for less than $5 million per season....

Compared to promoting a 31 year Hossa on a 7 year contract at $9 million per season...

One fits the immediate needs while addressing the future - the other meets immediate needs while destroying the future.....

Hossa on a 7 year contract at 9 million per season destroys the Oilers future..........

But why admit the truth when personal slights will suffice............
If we get Hossa I would move out Souray for McLaren, I think that addresses a lot of the long term stuff and gives us cap flexibility. In two years time I think our roster could look like this:

Hemsky (4.1) Gagner (6) Hossa (9)
Penner (4.25) Cogs (4.5) Nilsson (1.5)
Moreau (2) Brodziak (2.2) Brule (0.85)
O'Marra (1) Eberle (1) Nash (1)

Visnovsky (5.6) Gilbert (4)
Smid (3) Chorney (1)
Staois (2.7) Petry (1)

Garon (4)
Dubnyk (1)

=

roughly $60 million in payroll. Assuming the cap could rise to say $63-$64 mill we might even be able to retain Grebs.

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07-02-2008, 05:44 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
Hossa on a 7 year contract at 9 million per season destroys the Oilers future..........

But why admit the truth when personal slights will suffice............
In the end, I suspect it will be $8M/yr for 9 years with it front-loaded.

The CBA is only valid for a few more years and who knows what will happen to the salary cap. I see the Hossa signing as a great positive. What is wrong with signing an elite player? I like bargain signings, but you can't fill a team with second-class bargain players like Hejda. I'd rather take Lidstrom at $7M/yr or even $10M/yr because elite players make second-rate players better.

We aren't the MapleLaughs of the West because we don't trade our prospects for aging vets. I think we've become the Rangers of the West

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07-02-2008, 05:45 AM
  #369
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Free agents never cover the bet of their contract. They are overpaid by design, because they are the only way to acquire additional players that do not require the fundamental currency inherent to being an NHL team: draft picks. Because you don't have to draft and develop them, they cost more. So obviously, Hossa will not outperform his contract.

What I do expect is that he will continue to be an effective offensive player. And in a salary cap world driven by Canadian teams, I expect ticket prices to continually rise, driving up the salary cap more each year, which means as Hossa's performance dwindles, his contract number also gets more proportionately reasonable.

You sign free agents to bolster a team that needs one or two high performance players to get to another level. A Hossa signing would make sense. So would dealing Souray, because he's a similar type of contract, but Hossa is a higher end player, and a better player to have as a high-end-but-overpaid free agent addition.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with dipping into the high end free agent pool; Detroit has done so with some success at times. But you can't overuse that route, and you have to get a player that will be genuinely useful over the long-term.

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07-02-2008, 05:46 AM
  #370
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I don't understand your need to insult everyone who disagrees with you on this issue.

I'm smart enough to not buy into the conspiracy theory crap and I know that I'm not a "pawn".
I know your intentions are good.........

But I'm pi**ed off - have been since I heard the concept - can't believe anyone supports spending 15% of the salary cap on one player unless that player is Gretzky or Lemieux - in their prime - on a short term contract........

To find out from Staples Katz's reasoning behind the offer - the only logical reason for the offer (it did not make sense prior to that)...

Take it as an insult that you are a pawn if you like - but I outlined the repercussions prior to reading Staples logic - it has just magnified my anger by a factor of 10...

There is no money to keep our young talent talent if Hossa is signed - this is not theory - this is a fact..............

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07-02-2008, 05:49 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I know your intentions are good.........

But I'm pi**ed off - have been since I heard the concept - can't believe anyone supports spending 15% of the salary cap on one player unless that player is Gretzky or Lemieux - in their prime - on a short term contract........

To find out from Staples Katz's reasoning behind the offer - the only logical reason for the offer (it did not make sense prior to that)...

Take it as an insult that you are a pawn if you like - but I outlined the repercussions prior to reading Staples logic - it has just magnified my anger by a factor of 10...

There is no money to keep our young talent talent if Hossa is signed - this is not theory - this is a fact..............
Gagner + Cogliano will be retained. Hemsky is signed long term. So is Gilbert. We have Nilsson for a while yet.

What other "young talent" do we have that's so precious? Grebeshkov might walk, but honestly we still have Petry and Chorney who are young puck movers coming up the system.

Are you in favor of giving Horcoff $6 million next summer? He's turning 30 too and will want big bucks for at least 5 years also.

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07-02-2008, 05:50 AM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
There is a major, major difference between my promotion of 31 year old Morozov on a 3 year contract for less than $5 million per season....

Compared to promoting a 31 year Hossa on a 7 year contract at $9 million per season...

One fits the immediate needs while addressing the future - the other meets immediate needs while destroying the future.....

Hossa on a 7 year contract at 9 million per season destroys the Oilers future..........

But why admit the truth when personal slights will suffice............

I'm hoping that if it is a 7 year contract the last 2 would be at low values to bring down the cap hit and it is front loaded. You can turn a 9 million $ contract into a 7 mill cap hit pretty easy.

Look what they did with kipper. 8, 8, 8, 6, 3.5 for a hit of 5.833.

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07-02-2008, 05:52 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I know your intentions are good.........

But I'm pi**ed off - have been since I heard the concept - can't believe anyone supports spending 15% of the salary cap on one player unless that player is Gretzky or Lemieux - in their prime - on a short term contract........

To find out from Staples Katz's reasoning behind the offer - the only logical reason for the offer (it did not make sense prior to that)...

Take it as an insult that you are a pawn if you like - but I outlined the repercussions prior to reading Staples logic - it has just magnified my anger by a factor of 10...

There is no money to keep our young talent talent if Hossa is signed - this is not theory - this is a fact..............
I'm not proposing we spend 15% of the cap. I am proposing we spend 15%/14%/13%/12%/11%/10%/9% over the next seven years.

The cap will keep going up as long as people in Canada continue to buy tickets regardless of price. I've also got a sneaking suspicion that some of the failing American franchises will be moved to either Canadian markets or more promising American markets, which will increase revenue as well.

I disagree with you. Do you want me to simply accept everything you say, so I can be less of a pawn? Certainly master. I'm sorry I ever rebelled.

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07-02-2008, 06:15 AM
  #374
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I'm hoping that if it is a 7 year contract the last 2 would be at low values to bring down the cap hit and it is front loaded. You can turn a 9 million $ contract into a 7 mill cap hit pretty easy.

Look what they did with kipper. 8, 8, 8, 6, 3.5 for a hit of 5.833.
A $63 million over 7 years is a $9 million cap hit no matter if it is $9 million per season or 13, 11, 11, 9, 7, 7, 5......... Seriously...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperDesigner View Post
I'm not proposing we spend 15% of the cap. I am proposing we spend 15%/14%/13%/12%/11%/10%/9% over the next seven years.

The cap will keep going up as long as people in Canada continue to buy tickets regardless of price.
The cap will not continue to go up - we had a lockout 3 years ago when the majority of NHL owners were losing money - when salaries were much lower...


I had a serious discussion last summer (on a deleted thread) that housing prices were going to drop big time - it went on for page after page - my logic was good & was backed by facts - I was 100% accurate......

I am telling you right now that the cap has almost reached its peak - if it rises much more, teams will go bankrupt - therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract.

The Hossa signing is a PR move for Katz to get taxpayers money for a new arena - and you are a pawn if you believe otherwise....

And the Oilers will lose most of our young talent if the signing occurs............

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07-02-2008, 06:35 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
A $63 million over 7 years is a $9 million cap hit no matter if it is $9 million per season or 13, 11, 11, 9, 7, 7, 5......... Seriously...



The cap will not continue to go up - we had a lockout 3 years ago when the majority of NHL owners were losing money - when salaries were much lower...


I had a serious discussion last summer (on a deleted thread) that housing prices were going to drop big time - it went on for page after page - my logic was good & was backed by facts - I was 100% accurate......

I am telling you right now that the cap has almost reached its peak - if it rises much more, teams will go bankrupt - therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract.

The Hossa signing is a PR move for Katz to get taxpayers money for a new arena - and you are a pawn if you believe otherwise....

And the Oilers will lose most of our young talent if the signing occurs............


the second time you said hes 31 hes 29.He would be our best player, and we wouldnt be sacrificing gagner, or cogs. so stop whining, and wait and see what happens.

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