HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

We're still not a last place team...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-04-2008, 09:04 AM
  #51
sergioel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 59
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by albathegreat View Post
Scoring will be tough and you have to score to win games..

Are you for real??
Perhaps some historical stats will correct your thinking.
Let us use last season as an example..

New Jersey was ranked 27th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.51 goals a game. They finished 4th in the east, and had the 6th highest win total in the league.

In the West Anaheim was ranked 28th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.50 goals a game. They finished 4th in the west, and was tied for the 3rd highest win total in the league.

The common denominator was defence/goaltending, with goaltending being the more important factor for both these teams.

Take Toskala's game stealing abilities, and couple it with Wilsons obvious desire to turn around the defense on this team, and you have a possibility that this offensivilly challenged team may still find ways to win!

sergioel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 09:25 AM
  #52
Platapie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,741
vCash: 500
The common denominator is both teams had dominant defense or an elite goalie or both. I don't get the whole "our defense will be great because our offense sucks", trust me, our defense and offense can suck at the same time quite easily, and ours will.

Platapie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 09:28 AM
  #53
guinness
those were the days
 
guinness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Missoula, Montana
Country: United States
Posts: 12,910
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergioel View Post
Are you for real??
Perhaps some historical stats will correct your thinking.
Let us use last season as an example..

New Jersey was ranked 27th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.51 goals a game. They finished 4th in the east, and had the 6th highest win total in the league.

In the West Anaheim was ranked 28th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.50 goals a game. They finished 4th in the west, and was tied for the 3rd highest win total in the league.

The common denominator was defence/goaltending, with goaltending being the more important factor for both these teams.

Take Toskala's game stealing abilities, and couple it with Wilsons obvious desire to turn around the defense on this team, and you have a possibility that this offensivilly challenged team may still find ways to win!
Wilson had all that talent in SJ, and a certain goalie named Nabokov...good thing the Sharks got Mcclellan.

NJ and Anaheim were both knocked out in the first round last year, and Giguere and Brodeur are great goalies, but the team has to score goals for them too.

The Preds have made the playoffs lately, even with the ownership turmoil last year, and Poile and Trotz seem to get a lot out of their players. Signing Frogurt and Fingerbang, well, if they were cheap, yeah, I'd think the Leafs were trying to rebuild too, but $14 mill for a guy that's played 94 NHL games, he would have to become an all-start almost, for people to get over the money he's going to make.

guinness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 09:29 AM
  #54
TheLeastOfTheBunch
Registered User
 
TheLeastOfTheBunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,823
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djp55 View Post
I can't tell if you're joking or not. With Hamhuis as a top pair d-man and Erat on the top line...I feel a bit better about the Leafs.
Hamhuis is very underrated. Guys like Suter, Franson also could become 1st pairing defenseman. Heck, your in good position when you have Jonathan Blum, who scored 63 points in 64 games in the WHL as an 18 year old defenseman, this past season.

Maybe this could be a better defensive pairing:

Weber - Suter
Hamhuis - Franson
Klein - Blum

TheLeastOfTheBunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 12:10 PM
  #55
The Blueblood
Registered User
 
The Blueblood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Posts: 53
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crump View Post
Leafs won't be anywhere near a lottery pick this season. I know people think the loss of Sundin makes us worse, but that ice time gets spread out to Antropov, Steen and then players like Blake rebound after a bad season. Our defense will be much better so the goals won't be needed as much. We will be a little tougher to play against with some more grit added.

I want the Leafs to get a high draft pick as well but I know it isn't going to happen with toskala in for a full season as starter, Wilson coaching and some young players wit high end potential (Kuleman, Tlusty, Grabovsky). I think this will be a fun season to watch at least and they might just surprise people this season..
I think you are totally overrating this roster, and underrating the impact Mats had on this team. Losing Mats basically takes 100 goals-for from this team and they are going to be hard pressed to replace even 75% of that

Antropov had never scored 20 goals in a season before last year and the only reason he did it was because he was on Mats's wing for most of the year, and with no more on the tape Sundin passes or juicy rebounds from a Sundin shot to bang in for Nik, I expect a drop in production. Also don't forget that Antropov has averaged 63 games the past 5 seasons so he's a pretty good bet to miss a quarter of the season with some kind of injury, probably a knee. Also he's a UFA after next season so if they can't get his name on an extension, you can guarantee he's gone by the trade deadline.

What you saw from Blake last year is what you're gonna get. Look at his career stats, 40 goals was a Gary Leeman-esque fluke for him. Ask yourself this, if guys like Nik Hagman are getting 3 million as UFAs why is there little or no interest in Blake on the trade market? Blake has a rep for being selfish and a bad teammate, I bet he quits on this team and mails in the rest of the season come November.

As for Tlusty, Kulemin and Grabovski, the funny thing with potential is you can have all the high end potential in the world but it means nothing if you don't fulfill it. Name me the last time three rookies (I'm still treating Tlusty as a rook, 40 games on the 4th line is hardly playing) came on a team and dominated in their rookie season which is what these 3 will have to do to keep the Leafs out of the conference basement.

The simple facts are that everyone that finished in the bottom 10 with the Leafs last year have improved except for Florida and Vancouver, and no one out of the top 20 has taken such a huge stumble backwards that they can be considered a bottom feeder. At worst, the Leafs are gonna finish #28, but more likely #29 or 30 as they have to play the Habs, Sens and Bruins each 8 times next year. I think its Vancouver and Toronto in the Tavares race.

The Blueblood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 01:02 PM
  #56
crump
~ ~ (ړײ) ~ ~
 
crump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ontariariario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,997
vCash: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blueblood View Post
I think you are totally overrating this roster, and underrating the impact Mats had on this team. Losing Mats basically takes 100 goals-for from this team and they are going to be hard pressed to replace even 75% of that.
I guess we will see.

Bookmark this thread and we'll revisit into the season.

Don't underate the postive's that can come from change. Just because the Devils didn't have Mario or Wayne, it didn't stop them from being respectable and an elite team. Sundin's goals and assists will be spread around, they might not be as spectacular or done with as much grace, but as long as they go in nobody gives extra points for style.

I am not saying the Leafs will win the cup, but they will make the playoffs.

crump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 05:13 PM
  #57
dredeye
BJ Elitist/Hipster
 
dredeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crump View Post
I guess we will see.

Bookmark this thread and we'll revisit into the season.

Don't underate the postive's that can come from change. Just because the Devils didn't have Mario or Wayne, it didn't stop them from being respectable and an elite team. Sundin's goals and assists will be spread around, they might not be as spectacular or done with as much grace, but as long as they go in nobody gives extra points for style.

I am not saying the Leafs will win the cup, but they will make the playoffs.
Wow it's already starting. Now were in the playoffs next year. By September we should be cup contenders I guess. We don't have a prayer for the playoffs. If we did make it something went terrribly wrong for many eastern teams. We will be in the lottery and no higher. It's not underating it's being realistic. We're in a rebuild and we aren't gonna win much. It may just be easier to watch this year. We can root for the young guys and see some grit in our boys once again. It won't be hard to watch aside from what I'm sure will be some heart braking losses.

dredeye is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2008, 05:21 PM
  #58
Ohio Jones
Game on...
 
Ohio Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Great White North
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,672
vCash: 500
The Leafs will have a hard time making the playoffs, but it's not impossible. In fact, I think it's more likely than suggesting they'll finish bottom-5, with or witout Sundin. A finish somewhere in the 6-12 range is what we should probably expect.

That's consistent with what the Leafs have said, too: they *never* suggested they were looking to finish last, or were targetting Tavares, or any such idea. Much as prospect fans at HF might like it, it's not in the cards for this team: the Leafs are going to try hard to compete. Among other things, it's better for the development of their young players to be as competitive as possible.

I'm astonished noone has mentioned the Panthers as a team that's going to struggle big-time: it looks to me like they're positioning themelves for a move to another city.

Ohio Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2008, 09:50 PM
  #59
dredeye
BJ Elitist/Hipster
 
dredeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,810
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
The Leafs will have a hard time making the playoffs, but it's not impossible. In fact, I think it's more likely than suggesting they'll finish bottom-5, with or witout Sundin. A finish somewhere in the 6-12 range is what we should probably expect.

That's consistent with what the Leafs have said, too: they *never* suggested they were looking to finish last, or were targetting Tavares, or any such idea. Much as prospect fans at HF might like it, it's not in the cards for this team: the Leafs are going to try hard to compete. Among other things, it's better for the development of their young players to be as competitive as possible.

I'm astonished noone has mentioned the Panthers as a team that's going to struggle big-time: it looks to me like they're positioning themelves for a move to another city.
NO team tries to lose games. Tampa and LA tried to win every game they could last year. It's simply the fact that they didn't have all the pieces needed to win on a more consistent basis. I don't think especially without Sundin that we have near the necessary pieces to win regularly. Look at Tampa's first line. It outshines ours hands down but they finished further back. They have added talent and were in the process of losing more then we are replacing. So odds are that we should be going backwards in the standings and they should be going forward. You never know what's gonna happen we could win the cup. Odds are we're closer to winning Tavares then we are lord stanley

dredeye is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2008, 11:00 PM
  #60
pwallll
Registered User
 
pwallll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djp55 View Post
Hi there,

Long time reader, first time poster (I've never understood why people who dial into radio talk shows are compelled to provide such a status..but I'll do it anyway).

My preference is for the Leafs to gut the team, and do a re-start like Pitts has done. I'm more than willing to take 3 years of bottom 3 in the league for a chance to build up our organization like Pitts, Montreal or Detroit.

I'm still not sure what Cliff's trying to do. I originally thought he was trying to gut the team and to start building through the draft and youth pick-ups. But in the last 2 weeks, he's traded away a bunch of 2nd round picks and locked in a couple of mediocre 28 yr old players for 4 yrs and big money.

With our current roster and situation, I really don't see how the Leafs can finish in the bottom 2 this year (which appears to be a goal of many of us). Here's a few reasons.

1) Toskala. He's too good to be a last-place goalie.
Let's look at the worst teams for the last 3 years :
07-08 : LA Kings -> LaBarbera, Bernier, Aubin, Ersberg
06-07 : Philly -> Nittymaki, a crappy Biron, Esche
05-06 : St Louis -> Sanford, Lalime

Toskala is considerably better than any of these names. Based on his 2nd half performance, he should be capable of improving his overal save percentage and stealing a few more wins.

2) Ron Wilson. I think he's a decent coach who seems to recognize the importance of defense. He knows he'll be measured against Maurice in terms of special teams and defense, so I expect to see an improvement in all 3. Last place teams are typically crappy with all 3.

3) Culture. MLSE and Cliffy have the mandate to change the culture right away. Hence the purge of Tucker, McCabe, Welly and some of the other deadweight. I expect the Leafs to be a low scoring, likeable team that will work hard and show a fair bit of grit. Again..not a recipe for a last place team.

I don't see us being a good team next year. We should be in the bottom 10 teams, but I don't see us being in the bottom 2 which means we're likely out of the Tavares/Hedman sweepstakes, barring some miracle.

DP
Biron played very well for them from the moment they got him. He went 6-8-2 which is only 2 games below .500 on the team that finished dead last and his save percentage was .908 which is better than what Toskala had this year. But i am not saying Biron is better than Toskala i just want to point out that Biron actually played very well for Philly considering the position the team was in and the fact he got traded from a cup contender to the worst team in the leaue.

pwallll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2008, 11:47 PM
  #61
LTL
Registered User
 
LTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: D.T
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergioel View Post
Are you for real??
Perhaps some historical stats will correct your thinking.
Let us use last season as an example..

New Jersey was ranked 27th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.51 goals a game. They finished 4th in the east, and had the 6th highest win total in the league.

In the West Anaheim was ranked 28th in goals for last season. They averaged 2.50 goals a game. They finished 4th in the west, and was tied for the 3rd highest win total in the league.

The common denominator was defence/goaltending, with goaltending being the more important factor for both these teams.

Take Toskala's game stealing abilities, and couple it with Wilsons obvious desire to turn around the defense on this team, and you have a possibility that this offensivilly challenged team may still find ways to win!
Actually if you want to even take that a step further you could even look at the NYR and Bruins.

Quote:
Bruins - 8th in conference - 1st round loss
206 Goals For (24th overall)
216 Goals Against (11th overall)

Rangers - 5th in conference - 2nd round loss
205 Goals For (25th overall)
190 Goals Against (4th overall)
IMO this is exactly the type of system DW needs to implement to bridge the gap for 2-3 seasons until drafted players make their way to the NHL. It will also help keep the same GM around with a single plan unlike now where it's being changed every 3-5 years.

LTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:17 AM
  #62
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
The Leafs will likely re-sign Sundin.

Otherwise, this is how the roster has changed so far from last year to this year:

Hagman (28) replaces Tucker (33)
Mayers (34) replaces Kilger (32)
Grabovski (24) replaces Wellwood (25)
Finger (28) replaces Gill (33)
Frugren (28) replaces Wozniewski (28)
Joseph (41) replaces Raycroft (28)

and, of course - most importantly, RON WILSON replaces PAUL MAURICE.


At this point, I'd be betting on this leaf team to be better - even significantly better - than last year's team.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:24 AM
  #63
Platapie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,741
vCash: 500
Quote:
At this point, I'd be betting on this leaf team to be better - even significantly better - than last year's team.
I'd highly suggest you never visit Vegas.

Platapie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:37 AM
  #64
wendelclark17
Registered User
 
wendelclark17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 843
vCash: 500
without sundin, im guessing we finish 3rd last in standings.

1.ATL
2.FLA
3.TOR
4.STL

wendelclark17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:40 AM
  #65
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wendelclark17 View Post
without sundin, im guessing we finish 3rd last in standings.

1.ATL
2.FLA
3.TOR
4.STL
Without Sundin and McCabe is more like it.

mooseOAK* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:41 AM
  #66
dubey
Outrage Hobbyist
 
dubey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: the 6ix w/ my woes
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wendelclark17 View Post
without sundin, im guessing we finish 3rd last in standings.

1.ATL
2.FLA
3.TOR
4.STL
I'm guessing you didn't include LA because you're banking on them not hitting the cap floor, right?

That team is brutal, even worse than last season.

dubey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:43 AM
  #67
Bills09
Registered User
 
Bills09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pickering, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,649
vCash: 500
I definatley dont want Sundin back.
The youth will carry this team and im more than happy with that.

Bills09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:44 AM
  #68
wendelclark17
Registered User
 
wendelclark17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 843
vCash: 500
oh **** i forgot LA, thanks
ok so 4th last w/o mats

1.LA
2.ATL
3.FLA
4.TOR
5.STL

wendelclark17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 10:51 AM
  #69
johnny canuckistan
Registered User
 
johnny canuckistan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djp55 View Post
I always thought Wellwood should have been so much better in the shootout. I'm not sure what his record was, but he rarely did anything very creative.
I think he was too tired after skating all the way from center ice, dragging his gut around.

johnny canuckistan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 11:26 AM
  #70
aingefan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 432
vCash: 500
I'm anticipating lots of respectable losses, but a good brand of hockey without much offensive finish - imo the additions have been pretty close to perfect for a rebuilding team: the d-men are solid but not game changers; Hagman is a contributor in a system, not a game changer and not so talented that he takes burn away from the more highly regarded youngsters; Grabs is added to the mix of potential top-two line guys, hedging bets basically.

The style should change over the course of the year, and I'd expect a more determined, faster, edgier style. And I think the moves towards rebuilding should be continuing - so that it gets worse before it gets better, and that's the way I see it shaping up quite nicely.

1. Very important to start seeing if Kulemin/Tlusty/Steen/Grabovski have what it takes to be first liners - the scoring onus should be given to them in fair quantities for sure - sink or swim.
2. PT really needs to be given to the best of the young guys (above in particular, and Stralman as well) and Pogge should get some starts this year towards the end of the season.
3. Use a fair chunk of time seeing what the 3rd/4th line prospects can offer (Mitchell, Earl, Williams, etc) - 20-30 game blocks for each - not likely to win anything anyway, and it's important to evaluate youth against men. Any game from Boyd Deveraux types should be to showcase them for deals.
4. No player should be safe as the season wears along, and the sought after assets should be quite future oriented....McCabe, Kubina, Poni, Antro, Blake, Mayers, Vesa could all net nifty returns in their own right and I have no problem seeing those moves as time marches on.

aingefan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 12:29 PM
  #71
dougieg93
flip for filip
 
dougieg93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 500
For those that think the leafs will finish bottom 5 completely underestimate what good coaching can bring to a team's success. If you go back to '99 when PQ was first brought in, and we were looking at a lineup with Derek King, Krys King, Igor Korolev, Sergei Berezin and a defense led my Dimitri Yushkevich and Bryan Berard. PQ when he came to camp said the team doesn't look as bad as everyone suspected - and the Leafs went to the ECF that year.

Not to say this will happen this year, but the Leafs went the right direction with addressing the character of the lockerroom and like in 99 we have a solid goaltender. I won't be surprised if we were a bottom 5 team, but I also understand that the true nature of the NHL is that anything can happen from any given year.

dougieg93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-07-2008, 12:49 PM
  #72
LeafsIn7
Registered User
 
LeafsIn7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,746
vCash: 500
Having as many of following can produce a last overall team:

1. Poor overall talent - sort of, there is still a fair amount of talent on the Leafs' NHL roster
2. Lack of elite talent - without Sundin, it could be argued the team would have none although Kaberle is pretty close to being an elite offensive defenseman
3. Lack of depth - check, this organization is severely lacking in depth, the healthy lineup might have enough to be competitive but start removing players and we're looking some pretty sad looking 3rd and 4th lines
4. Poor/inconsistent goaltending - Toskala was good last season, only an injury or a trade it seems would make the Leafs goaltending questionable
5. Team softness - Despite additions to counteract this, I still think this is a fairly soft NHL team in their forward group. The defense looks to have been toughened up considerably which will make for a more competitive team.
6. Poor Work Ethic - Fletcher has been addressing that during this past off-season

Thinking about, it's difficult to project a last overall finish just yet. The biggest wild card is league parity. Most every team can beat any other team on any given night. I expect this season that more teams will believe they are competing for a playoff spot than ever before. At this point in time, I only see two other NHL teams that are on track for a competitive nosedive matching the Leafs: N.Y.I. and Atlanta.

LeafsIn7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.