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Salary Cap System Needs to be Changed (Re: Jagr)

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Old
07-05-2008, 12:35 AM
  #51
therealdeal
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Originally Posted by The Habitant View Post
Without a cap, there is no need to chose between player A and player B. The Rangers could have picked up Redden and Naslund while re-signing Jagr.

It's as simple as that.
Oh yeah, that would have made the NHL soooo much better.

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07-05-2008, 12:57 AM
  #52
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Yeah, I'm going to miss Jagr.

Never liked his personality, but he was pure entertainment value, because he was so inconsistant you never knew which guy would show up.

But man, when he was on, it was fun too watch!

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07-05-2008, 02:52 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Habitant View Post
Another example of why teams should be able to go over the cap by a certain % to keep their own players.

There's no reason Jagr shouldn't be playing in the NHL next year. New York can easily afford to pay him, yet they are prevented from doing so by the league.

The result? The fans lose out.

This is a first ballot Hall of Fame player. He is also still capable of playing for 2-3 more years if he so decides. He's also one of the few players in the entire league with any name recognitions south of the boarder.

The fact that he's leaving the NHL is very bad news for the NHL. Not good for the league at all.
You got a slight smirk out of me, I'll give you that.

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07-05-2008, 03:20 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Habitant View Post
The fact that he's leaving the NHL is very bad news for the NHL. Not good for the league at all.
I'm a NY Ranger fan since the 70s, and I don't think him leaving the NHL is a big problem. Jagr was a great player, but also selfish and lazy. I'm sitting here making $43,000 a year and thinking about selling my Volvo because it gets 16 miles per gallon in the city. It's not all too impressive to watch Jagr make 8 million, and not show up 90 percent of the season, not back check, and take a barrage of lazy hooks.

Jagr can be very dominant when he feels like it. For me personally, I'd rather watch someone who has passion the entire season and shows up to play every day. Above all, I finally feel safe that I'll probably never see that idiotic salute again.

My friend, the league survived when Orr left. It survived when Gretzky left. It will certainly survive the loss of Jagr.

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07-05-2008, 03:32 AM
  #55
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Capless NHL = best thing ever. Imagine battles between Dynasties full of great players playing exiting wonderful hockey! Look how soccer world works.

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07-05-2008, 04:00 AM
  #56
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I don't agree with this at all. Jagr, at his age, could have taken a discount to make a last run at the cup, but didn't. Sather choose to make other priorities, which in my opinion, served the Rangers well.

I think it's good by the Rangers. Next season, alot more guys then Jagr needs to step up. And their D is vastly improved, IMO, even though Redden is not worth that kind of money.

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07-05-2008, 04:14 AM
  #57
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I don't know if I care about Jagr's situation, but it does bug me that teams may have to let go of longtime fan favorites for cap reasons.

There ought to be some sort of lessened cap hit for one long-tenured player per team, so that "face of the franchise" guys aren't forced to go play somewhere else near the end of their careers just to clear cap space. It happens a lot in the NFL, and frankly it sucks.

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07-05-2008, 04:32 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Avy View Post
Capless NHL = best thing ever. Imagine battles between Dynasties full of great players playing exiting wonderful hockey! Look how soccer world works.
This is basically it. Greatness begets greatness. Allow the worlds best talent to flourish playing alongside equally skilled players and reap the benefits of amazing hockey and the cultivation of truly great talent and franchises.

The soccer world has never had any sort of salary cap or 'parity' and its only managed to become the most popular sport on the planet.

I cant wait until the KHL forces the NHL to allow its member organizations to use their resources for the betterment of the game and not for the life support of franchises that cant compete.

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07-05-2008, 04:35 AM
  #59
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The OP is right but mislead. The current CBA is to be blamed for Jagr's departure from the NHL. It's not because the Rags couldn't afford him though, it's because they (along with every other NHL team) didn't want to risk signing him to a contract that would've lasted more than 1 year. The CBA says that if a player over 35 retires, his salary will continue to count against the cap even after he's retired. That makes it a huge risk to sign players 35+ to multi-year deals because if they decided to retire then the team that he was under contract for would be taking a cap hit and getting nothing in return.

Remember, Jagr didn't just leave New York, he left the NHL, and it could become a recurring trend to see players retiring in Russia if the CBA isn't changed.

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07-05-2008, 06:30 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TorFC-TML View Post
This is basically it. Greatness begets greatness. Allow the worlds best talent to flourish playing alongside equally skilled players and reap the benefits of amazing hockey and the cultivation of truly great talent and franchises.

The soccer world has never had any sort of salary cap or 'parity' and its only managed to become the most popular sport on the planet.

I cant wait until the KHL forces the NHL to allow its member organizations to use their resources for the betterment of the game and not for the life support of franchises that cant compete.
But how is it possible for the sport to grow without expansion? Why should someone in city A care for the team in city B?

I would love a capless NHL aswell, but it wouldn't benefit the game, just the rich teams.

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07-05-2008, 06:55 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
A soft cap benefits the Rangers, Flyers, and Leafs. It hurts the small market teams. I'm quite sure that fans of large market teams would love the ability to go over the cap anyway possible.
Isn't the object of a cap the opposite of your statement? The large market teams would LOVE no cap, why do you think there was a lock-out? Teams like the Leafs held out for so long cuz they couldn't freely spend anymore.

It benefits smaller teams by allowing them to have an excuse to not compete with the large markets and because it was supposed to keep the large markets in check.

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07-05-2008, 07:13 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse View Post
But how is it possible for the sport to grow without expansion? Why should someone in city A care for the team in city B?

I would love a capless NHL aswell, but it wouldn't benefit the game, just the rich teams.
And this is why every normal soccer league has promotion and relegation system. No more juice draft picks for suckers only wonderful American Hockey League.

It WOULD benefit the game greatly right from the start. Now without the this ****ing communistic salary cup Kovalchuk can play in front of real fanbase with somebody better than Todd White.


Last edited by Avy*: 07-05-2008 at 07:19 AM.
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07-05-2008, 07:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Avy View Post
And this is why every normal soccer league has promotion and relegation system. No more juice draft picks for suckers only wonderful American Hockey League.

It WOULD benefit the game greatly right from the start. Now without the this ****ing communistic salary cup Kovalchuk can play in front of real fanbase with somebody better than Todd White.
That's a good point. But a relegation system... how would it fit with the fans and the economical state of the league? I mean, having a large market with great reveneus falling out of the league (like any of the canadian markets, say Toronto) wouldn't benefit the game at all, would it?

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07-05-2008, 08:00 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by The Habitant View Post
The intent of the cap was top drive Hall of Fame players out of the NHL and overseas?

Sweet.
Other teams had plenty of cap to accomodate Jagr. Some teams are well below the lower limit and could have put money on Jagr.

The Rangers thought they could be a better team with Naslund/Redden than with Jagr. That's the point of the cap.

Jagr left because he wanted to. It's been a rumor going back to last winter that he would.

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07-05-2008, 08:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Clam_Chowder View Post
The OP is right but mislead. The current CBA is to be blamed for Jagr's departure from the NHL. It's not because the Rags couldn't afford him though, it's because they (along with every other NHL team) didn't want to risk signing him to a contract that would've lasted more than 1 year. The CBA says that if a player over 35 retires, his salary will continue to count against the cap even after he's retired. That makes it a huge risk to sign players 35+ to multi-year deals because if they decided to retire then the team that he was under contract for would be taking a cap hit and getting nothing in return.

Remember, Jagr didn't just leave New York, he left the NHL, and it could become a recurring trend to see players retiring in Russia if the CBA isn't changed.
Bingo.

The salary would count against the cap no matter if the player retired, got injured, or was sent to the minors.

"I wanted to go home in three years so I was looking for a three-year contract if I wanted to stay here," said Jagr. "But it looks like with the new CBA, it's tough for older guys to sign long-term contracts because teams are worried you're going to get injured or retire and they're stuck with the salary on the salary cap."
As Jagr pointed out, the CBA stipulates that players 35 and over have their full contracts count against the salary cap even if the player retires midway through or gets hit by a bus.

"So it was too tough for any team to sign me to a three-year contract," said Jagr. "But I didn't want to do a one-year deal because I didn't want to go through the same thing again next summer. Because I really didn't enjoy this."


http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app/?service=...ticleid=367813

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07-05-2008, 11:12 AM
  #66
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Medical and equipment staffs are lacking.
Uhh? Where's this coming from?

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07-05-2008, 11:41 AM
  #67
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Uhh? Where's this coming from?
Uhh? I made it up!

No, Dave Kings book talks a lot about it the medical staff being behind the NHL. Some appear to be old-school Soviet guys that were not very forthcoming about how they were dealing with the players. It's not all of them, but some of them.

I talked to Kasparaitis about it this summer. The team issued bag from SKA St Petersburg was a wheeled bag (basically a hockey bag with luggage wheels). I ribbed him about it a little and asked why he had one.

He told me SKA gave them to him because the players are the ones carrying them through customs, sometimes into the locker room. This is a bit of a change for guys who haven't carried their bags since they were 15.

While this may not be the nor, I can't see it happening with even one NHL team.

It's not so much the staff being at a lower skill level, but the players are not pampered as much here.

The travel can also be an absolute nightmare.

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07-05-2008, 11:43 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by The Habitant View Post
They didn't sign Naslun *instead* of Jagr. Naslun signed for only $4 million. Jagr was worth far more, but the Rags couln't pay him what he was worth under the cap system. Therefore, he's out of the NHL.
Your original point was being able to extend over the salary cap in order to sign your own players. Thats fine. I can live with that. The problem with this particular example is that the Rangers didn't need to extend the cap to retain their own player.

It was $6.5m to Ottawa's player and $4m to Vancouver's player that made Jagr expendable.

The Penguins have an argument as they might have wanted to extend the salary cap to keep their players, Malone, Hall, Ruutu, and Hossa.

Until you confront the $10.5m annual expenditures on Redden and Naslund your argument is pretty much dead in the water.

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07-05-2008, 11:43 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Avy View Post
And this is why every normal soccer league has promotion and relegation system. No more juice draft picks for suckers only wonderful American Hockey League.

It WOULD benefit the game greatly right from the start. Now without the this ****ing communistic salary cup Kovalchuk can play in front of real fanbase with somebody better than Todd White.
Regulation would be amazing, but I cannot see any NHL owner ever agreeing to it.

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07-05-2008, 11:58 AM
  #70
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Sathers offer to Jagr was fair in the 08 market. In Jagrs world he still needs to be the top paid guy in the room. Its not a lack of respect, its old school and pretty simple really. Sather just ran out of Pie to make that happen. Tough call, but in grand scheme of things the Cap is doing its job.

Jagr could have signed in Edmonton, and THAT would have been good for the NHL and the Edmonton Market, the whole of the West really to see JJ play every night. Thats how the cap is supposed to work. Spread the Elites around the league into different markets.

The real ramifications here are what happens now that the Euro league has actually had success at landing a true MARQUEE type player from the NHL.

Jagr is a SUPERSTAR. An Elite amongst Elites in the world of hockey.

Yea he's 36, but he's still plenty fun to watch, dangerous everytime hes on the ice and he's a personality.


I still think they probably need to land a younger Elite just coming into his prime like Ovechkin or Malkin to really make this a battle for talent, but Jagr may be the guy who opens the door....

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07-05-2008, 12:15 PM
  #71
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I personally think they should put the Rangers back on old CBA rules, unlimited cap but can only sign guys over 31. That way they could have an 80M payroll and not make the playoffs every year. These damn new rules have made them actually competative.

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07-05-2008, 12:58 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Vakar Lajos View Post
Uhh? I made it up!

No, Dave Kings book talks a lot about it the medical staff being behind the NHL. Some appear to be old-school Soviet guys that were not very forthcoming about how they were dealing with the players. It's not all of them, but some of them.

I talked to Kasparaitis about it this summer. The team issued bag from SKA St Petersburg was a wheeled bag (basically a hockey bag with luggage wheels). I ribbed him about it a little and asked why he had one.

He told me SKA gave them to him because the players are the ones carrying them through customs, sometimes into the locker room. This is a bit of a change for guys who haven't carried their bags since they were 15.

While this may not be the nor, I can't see it happening with even one NHL team.

It's not so much the staff being at a lower skill level, but the players are not pampered as much here.

The travel can also be an absolute nightmare.
The most funny thing is that its Kasper, a career 3-4 defender who was born in cccp was moaning about travels during lockout but superstars like Vinny, Jagr said only good things... Jagr was so pleased he actually promised to come back in Omsk after lockout. Jagr and Kasparaitis, so-called "diva" and tough dude.

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07-05-2008, 01:30 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse View Post
That's a good point. But a relegation system... how would it fit with the fans and the economical state of the league? I mean, having a large market with great reveneus falling out of the league (like any of the canadian markets, say Toronto) wouldn't benefit the game at all, would it?
1. As a lifelong Maple Leaf fan I would not care.

2. In a capless world a large market with great revenues wouldnt face the prospect of relegation because they would be able to afford good enough players. The fear that a capless NHL would lead to the Rangers, Leafs, Wings or other big market teams being relegated is completely insane.

If I gather from your post the fear is that a large market team like Toronto could be relegated and the league loses Toronto's revenues. Therein lies where we are fundamentally opposed. I think the fate of individual franchises should be determined by their own merits. Toronto wasnt ordained by God to be the biggest market in the league. Toronto grew to be the leagues biggest market through front office ability (at least off the ice) and the passion of the local fans. What have the Atlanta Thrashers, Tampa Bay Lightning or Nashville Predators done to deserve the Toronto markets money? When I buy a ticket to a Leafs game im not just supporting my team; im propping up about ten franchises that in a fair and competitive market wouldnt stand a chance of surviving.

And as for people using the old 'you need to expand into new markets if you want to grow the game. Why would somebody want to watch a team that plays nowhere near them'?

I hear this alot, but then why do so many people get so uppity when SCF ratings are bad with the likes of Tampa, Anaheim or Carolina but think its great when two high profile markets like Detroit and Pittsburgh make the playoffs. By your logic the only way to 'grow' the game is to have local, 'new' markets having success but when that happens, the league suffers from horrible ratings and nobody makes any money.

btw, 'growing' the game has come to be the biggest load of horse**** ive ever heard. What 'growing' the game really means is spreading it so thin that nobody gets to enjoye elite level hockey unless its international competition.


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07-05-2008, 01:47 PM
  #74
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In Jagr's case, it had nothing to do with the salary cap.

One reason, and 2 words come to mind as to why the Rangers, or any other team couldn't sign Jagr:

1) Jagr kept flip-flopping on whether he really wanted to stay in the NHL or play in Russia. If you recall the number of times how Jagr has demonstrated his personality over the years, he's indecisive, and doesn't really mean what he says sometimes. And the fact that he carries some extra baggage with him.. On the outside , it *seemed* that he was leaning towards Russia over the Rangers, and even more so over every other NHL team - as he stated, he hates change, and arguably, he is more familiar with that Russian team, with Euros, and being near Europe than going to a completely new team in N.A.

2) Risk Management. Because of Jagr's nature, and his age, it is very high risk to pay him more than 7mil per, and for more than 1 term. He wanted at least 2 yrs, but more like 3 yrs min. No team could give him that, when you consider that Jagr's the type of fellow who can quit on his team in a heartbeat and decide to fly back to Europe before his contract is up... him being over 35, his team would still take the full cap hit if he decided to leave at any time. Now that 35 yr old+ term in the CBA can be argued as being detrimental to the league I guess.

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07-05-2008, 01:52 PM
  #75
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In Jagr's case, it had nothing to do with the salary cap.
.....

Now that 35 yr old+ term in the CBA can be argued as being detrimental to the league I guess.
Way to disprove your own sentiment.

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