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Jagr's Place amongst top 'FORWARDS' of all time

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Old
07-04-2008, 09:45 PM
  #1
The_Eck
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Jagr's Place amongst top 'FORWARDS' of all time

It is with good reason that we applaud the exploits of crosby and ovechkin over these past three seasons.



However, bear in mind, during Jagr's prime, he recorded 127 points playing on a line with kip miller and jan hrdina. All of this during the clutch and grab era, and the two line offside rule was still implemented. Truly one of the great seasons IMO which gets overlooked.


Since the post lockout era, no forward has even reached that marked. TO be quite honest, i don't see anybody (not even crosby, AO whom I do not consider as generational talents in the mold of a gretzky or lemieux who were heads and shoulders above the rest of the league. Crosby and AO are not in a league of their own, but are rather two of the top FIVE best players in the NHL ) reaching that mark for quite some time even with the new rules implemented.
The point total for the previous art ross winners over the past three seasons has actually steadily gone down.

In terms of pure offensive talent and natural ability, Jagr should rank just behind mario and wayne.

Please be mature in your responses and elaborate your point of view.

Thank you..

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07-04-2008, 09:53 PM
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Crosby
+
AO

=

generational sickness.

Get with the program, cabron.

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07-04-2008, 10:00 PM
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The_Eck
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This is what I was talking about in terms of mature responses. ^^

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07-04-2008, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Eck View Post
It is with good reason that we applaud the exploits of crosby and ovechkin over these past three seasons.



However, bear in mind, during Jagr's prime, he recorded 127 points playing on a line with kip miller and jan hrdina. All of this during the clutch and grab era, and the two line offside rule was still implemented. Truly one of the great seasons IMO which gets overlooked.


Since the post lockout era, no forward has even reached that marked. TO be quite honest, i don't see anybody (not even crosby, AO whom I do not consider as generational talents in the mold of a gretzky or lemieux who were heads and shoulders above the rest of the league. Crosby and AO are not in a league of their own, but are rather two of the top FIVE best players in the NHL ) reaching that mark for quite some time even with the new rules implemented.
The point total for the previous art ross winners over the past three seasons has actually steadily gone down.

In terms of pure offensive talent and natural ability, Jagr should rank just behind mario and wayne.

Please be mature in your responses and elaborate your point of view.

Thank you..
So you did expect immature responses? thats why you said that? haha

I'd agree he is amongst the top for sure...but not just behind Wayne and Mario. If leadership was counted in, Sakic, Yzerman would further lower him in that list.
But he did suck heck for me in my fantasy pool last year ><"

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07-04-2008, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post
So you did expect immature responses? thats why you said that? haha

I'd agree he is amongst the top for sure...but not just behind Wayne and Mario. If leadership was counted in, Sakic, Yzerman would further lower him in that list.
But he did suck heck for me in my fantasy pool last year ><"
I do think he's definately one of the top (probably 5-10) offensive threats to ever play the game, but looking at the whole package makes his overall worth drop. He's always been a greedy, selfish non-team type player. Now that shouldn't affect his rankings, but it does. I doubt he's ever mentioned as better than guys like Sakic and Yzerman too, just for the fact that while he was probably a better talent, he wasn't as good of a "team" guy.

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07-04-2008, 10:35 PM
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In terms of talent I would probably say Jagr is a top5 talent. Statistically speaking, he's top 10 in terms of all major offensive categories, and he could have moved into the top 5 in all of them if he played to like Messier's age, or Chelios.

The knock is, he's taken a couple seasons off over his career, and that's why he's not already to that point.

Still, when he was on, and trying hard in his prime, I can't think of many guys I would want on the ice if I needed a goal.

And, even if he's not been a great leader over his career, I think I'd still take him over Sakic and Yzerman. You can get leadership from average players, or anybody in the locker room. It doesn't have to be your best guy. Gretzky wasn't really a leader until later in his career. His oilers days I'd still argue Messier was the heart and soul of that team.

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Old
07-05-2008, 02:18 AM
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Jagr has awesome stats and just look at his NHL awards. This guy has to go high up on the all-time list.

NHL Awards:
* Stanley Cup Winner - 1991, 1992
* Hart Trophy (MVP) - 1999
o Finalist: 1995, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2006
* Art Ross Trophy (Leading Point Scorer) - 1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001
* Lester B. Pearson Award (Players' MVP) - 1999, 2000, 2006
* NHL First Team All-Star - 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006
* NHL Second Team All-Star - 1997
* NHL All-Rookie Team - 1991

/cheers

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Old
07-05-2008, 02:26 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Eck View Post
It is with good reason that we applaud the exploits of crosby and ovechkin over these past three seasons.



However, bear in mind, during Jagr's prime, he recorded 127 points playing on a line with kip miller and jan hrdina. All of this during the clutch and grab era, and the two line offside rule was still implemented. Truly one of the great seasons IMO which gets overlooked.


Since the post lockout era, no forward has even reached that marked. TO be quite honest, i don't see anybody (not even crosby, AO whom I do not consider as generational talents in the mold of a gretzky or lemieux who were heads and shoulders above the rest of the league. Crosby and AO are not in a league of their own, but are rather two of the top FIVE best players in the NHL ) reaching that mark for quite some time even with the new rules implemented.
The point total for the previous art ross winners over the past three seasons has actually steadily gone down.

In terms of pure offensive talent and natural ability, Jagr should rank just behind mario and wayne.

Please be mature in your responses and elaborate your point of view.

Thank you..
You are 100% correct. That makes Mario's runs look like God himself.

You have to applaud that type of talent, it is just impeccable. Jagr = greatness and always will.

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07-05-2008, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Eck View Post
In terms of pure offensive talent and natural ability, Jagr should rank just behind mario and wayne.
I started watching in the 70s, so I can only work with the players I've seen since then. But to me it's difficult to look at pure offensive talent and ability amongst forwards I've seen and not immediately think of Mike Bossy after Gretzky and Lemieux. I could as easily put Jagr into the mix after Gretzky and Lemieux, but Bossy's year in year out goal scoring, and his amazing shot, it was something to behold. Of the guys I've watched, Guy Lafleur, Peter Stastny, Yzerman and Pat Lafontaine also jump to mind as amazingly talented offensive players. Hmm ... I'd personally maybe have Lafleur and Bossy a slight tad ahead of Jagr. But that's just me.

Edit: I should have included Marcel Dionne, as well.


Last edited by Cake or Death: 07-05-2008 at 03:23 AM.
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Old
07-05-2008, 02:52 AM
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Top 25 of all time, certainly.

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07-05-2008, 03:12 AM
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Somewhere in the top ten forwards ever. If I had to pay any person in history to keep the puck away from defenders he would be my first choice.

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07-05-2008, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Somewhere in the top ten forwards ever. If I had to pay any person in history to keep the puck away from defenders he would be my first choice.
In his prime there was no one better, the closest I would say is Kovalev but the difference is Jagr always seem to have a purpose and got results when he dragged the puck.

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07-05-2008, 06:35 AM
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Most talented player ever.

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07-05-2008, 06:45 AM
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Blades 0f Steel
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Best RW of all time, when he was in his prime.

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07-05-2008, 06:48 AM
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Frank the Tank
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Some of the most knowledgeable posters on HFBoards have debated and discussed for months such player rankings based on numerous factors.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479

Jagr was placed 25th overall and the 14th rated forward. I would tend to agree with his placement on this list.

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07-05-2008, 07:03 AM
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Jagr was a great talent but his attitude was piss poor. I remember him causing a big problem in Washington because they wouldn't let him practice without shoulder pads. He really could have been more then he was if he was motivated throughout his career. I think winning cups so early in his career played a part into his attitude and motivation. All time he is somewhere between 25-50 in rank. When you rank a player you need to take all things into consideration including leadership, attitude, ect.

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Old
07-05-2008, 07:30 AM
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Top 5:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Crosby
5. Jagr

Honourable mention: Orr

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07-05-2008, 07:37 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scott View Post
Top 5:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Crosby
5. Jagr

Honourable mention: Orr
Crosby at 4? is this a joke? I sure hope so.

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07-05-2008, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LeafsKing14 View Post
Crosby at 4? is this a joke? I sure hope so.
1+

Crosby isn't close of being anywhere near top ten of all time at this stage.

Anyway, i would consider Jagr a top ten talent, he always had the tools, and like a previous poster mentioned, if it weren't for his early SC-wins, i believe he would have been more motivated throughout his career. Motivation is one of the greatest factors that come into play, and Jagr didn't always have that.

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07-05-2008, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsKing14 View Post
Crosby at 4? is this a joke? I sure hope so.
its a crosbyboy who makes ao vs sc polls...

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07-05-2008, 08:06 AM
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I'd say

1) Gretzky
2) Howe
3) Mario Lemieux
4) The Rocket
5) Bobby Hull

etc etc etc

To be honest, I have a hard time ranking Jagr above guys like Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman because I never thought Jagr had half as much leadership as those guys.

by the way: Ranking crosby at #4? Do you work for ESPN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Best RW of all time, when he was in his prime.
Uh, wasnt Howe a RWer? I have a hard time viewing Jagr and Howe at the same level.

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07-05-2008, 08:16 AM
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Jagr will always not get the respect he deserves because

He is a Czech-It shouldnt matter but to alot it does even if they dont realise it matters to them.

He supposedly wasnt much of a leader-Said by those who obviously didnt watch him carry pathetic Pens teams on his back into the playoffs year after year after year. Playing in playoff games with injuries that should have kept him off the ice, if Jagr was Canadian hero ala Sakic or Yzerman such things would not have gone unnoticed.

Washington-Zzzzz we have heard it all before, funny that in Washington he was still a ppg game player yet he was supposedly not working hard and not committed etc. If anything that is just a further testament to Jagrs ability that playing in an environment that he wasnt happy and wasnt trying hard he was still a ppg player.

Defense-People around here act like he was Bure or something, Jagr pretty much is the summary of best defense is a good offense. When he was on the ice the puck was on his stick or on the stick of somebody he passed it to or on the way back to his stick for the majority of the time he was on the ice. When Jagr had the puck nobody was going to take it away from him, would seem to me that not letting the other team have the puck is a pretty effective defense.

Basically hockey players are put on the ice to produce results not to make happy families with every city. Jagrs results are undeniable, people rant on about his "bad" years holding him back yet his supposed bad years were ppg seasons. This guy scored 127 odd points with Jan Hrdina and Kip freakin Miller. Has there been an Art Ross winner with worse linemates? serious question. Still the mass hatred for Jagr by Washington fans, some (get over it) Pens fans and everyone else who had to sit back while Jagr torched there teams regularly will never give him credit. I seriously doubt many people watched Jagr in his prime around here with the way he gets trashed by some people, not so much in this thread specifically.


Last edited by Morozov: 07-05-2008 at 08:29 AM.
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Old
07-05-2008, 08:20 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyhorse View Post
1+

Crosby isn't close of being anywhere near top ten of all time at this stage.

Anyway, i would consider Jagr a top ten talent, he always had the tools, and like a previous poster mentioned, if it weren't for his early SC-wins, i believe he would have been more motivated throughout his career. Motivation is one of the greatest factors that come into play, and Jagr didn't always have that.
Thats a pretty rough wrap on Jagr this whole questioning his motivation thing. Did you even watch Jagr play with the Pens after those cup wins? he did everything he could for a long time on those bad teams taking them much further than anyone would expect he was a great captain until he left and when he left I cant really blame him anyway. Also Jagr went through just as much if not more crap than anyone in the league through the clutch and grab years yet he constantly scored points with players hanging on his back and people question his motivation and leadership? if I am sitting on the bench and I see a guy on my team score a goal while getting hacked constantly and having a defender draped over him I will be inspired, not all forms of leadership come from big dramatic speeches.


Last edited by Morozov: 07-05-2008 at 08:36 AM.
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Old
07-05-2008, 10:11 AM
  #24
nik jr
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the only players i would say are definitely above jagr offensively are 99, 66 and gordie howe.
but i don't know if he's better offensively than lafleur, esposito, hull, mikita, morenz, etc.

winning an art ross playing on a line with jan hrdina and kip miller, having defenders just tackling him is just incredible.

and jagr didn't even use the slapshot/one-timer until his last few seasons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Best RW of all time, when he was in his prime.
howe is clearly the best RW, even counting jagr's prime.

howe was winning the art ross by 25-34% margins in his prime (and leading the NHL in goals by as much as 50%), while playing a very physical, 2 way game.

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Old
07-05-2008, 11:52 AM
  #25
Heat McManus
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Pure offensive talent? I've been watching hockey since 1992 so I can really only comment on the players I've seen since then.

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Jagr

From what I've read and heard discussed I think all-time may be

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Bossy

then maybe Jagr. Some people may put Jagr in the top-5 though. Probably never in the top-4 though.

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