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Jagr's Place amongst top 'FORWARDS' of all time

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Old
07-05-2008, 11:58 AM
  #26
Walkingthroughforest
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In terms of pure offensive talent, I'd say that Jags falls right behind Gretzky and Lemieux. Now I think there are many greater players then him, (Orr, Bourque, Richard, Howe, Hull) but in terms of what to do when the puck is on his stick, Jags in his prime is a guy I'd want 10/10 times

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07-05-2008, 12:06 PM
  #27
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In the 12-16 range.

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07-05-2008, 12:55 PM
  #28
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he's up there with Lafleur, Messier, Beliveau, Epso. 2nd tier

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07-05-2008, 06:49 PM
  #29
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Jesus christ, kids are talking about leadership again, as if that somehow vaults players into being better out on the ice.

Jagr is definitely, in terms of skill and offensive ability a top 5 player of all time. His talent was absolutely sick. A mesmerizing player.

Leadership is some stupid friggin intangible that people toss up when they want to polish their favored player over. Jagr led on the ice by what he could do with the puck.

One can talk all they want in the dressing rooms and motivate and such, but when you're out on the ice, Jagr is going to own you.

We're not talking about some package thing here, we're talking about offensive talent. Jagr has that in abundance, and in the past 20 years, yeah, only Mario and Wayne had more.

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07-05-2008, 08:39 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scott View Post
Top 5:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Crosby
5. Jagr

Honourable mention: Orr
uhhh ok.

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07-05-2008, 08:41 PM
  #31
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Old
07-05-2008, 08:44 PM
  #32
EagleBelfour
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Gordie Howe
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Jean Béliveau
Maurice Richard
Bobby Hull
Howie Morenz
Stan Mikita
Guy Lafleur
Bobby Clarke
Ted Lindsay
Mark Messier
Valeri Kharlamov
Phil Esposito
Newsy Lalonde
Jaromir Jagr
Milt Schmidt
Bryan Trottier
Mike Bossy
Joe Sakic
Cyclone Taylor
Syl Apps Sr.
Bernard Geoffrion

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07-05-2008, 09:26 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Gordie Howe
Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Mario Lemieux
Jean Béliveau
Maurice Richard
Bobby Hull
Howie Morenz
Stan Mikita
Guy Lafleur
Bobby Clarke
Ted Lindsay
Valeri Kharlamov
Phil Esposito
Newsy Lalonde
Jaromir Jagr
Milt Schmidt
Bryan Trottier
Mike Bossy
Joe Sakic
Cyclone Taylor
Syl Apps Sr.
Bernard Geoffrion
Fixed


Last edited by Bullet: 07-06-2008 at 04:02 PM.
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Old
07-05-2008, 09:49 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakar Lajos View Post
Pure offensive talent? I've been watching hockey since 1992 so I can really only comment on the players I've seen since then.

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Jagr

From what I've read and heard discussed I think all-time may be

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Bossy

then maybe Jagr. Some people may put Jagr in the top-5 though. Probably never in the top-4 though.
I'd agree with that 2nd assessment.

I'd put Jagr about 7th-10th, you can mix and match a few guys into those slots.

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Old
07-05-2008, 09:50 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post

Washington-Zzzzz we have heard it all before, funny that in Washington he was still a ppg game player yet he was supposedly not working hard and not committed etc. If anything that is just a further testament to Jagrs ability that playing in an environment that he wasnt happy and wasnt trying hard he was still a ppg player.
there is no "supposedly"...he admits it...and he wasnt brought in and given the biggest contact in the NHL to be a point per game player....he scored 121 points his last season in Pit and 123 his first in NY....he wasnt even the Caps leading scorer when he was traded

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07-05-2008, 10:03 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
there is no "supposedly"...he admits it...and he wasnt brought in and given the biggest contact in the NHL to be a point per game player....he scored 121 points his last season in Pit and 123 his first in NY....he wasnt even the Caps leading scorer when he was traded
exactly he wasnt working hard and yet he was still a ppg game just further testament to Jagrs skill. Almost every player has a downpatch in his career, Jagrs was still at a ppg pace and just gets overblown by angry Washington fans who wanted Jagr to actually take there franchise somewhere. The way it gets overblown is very amusing, people think Jagrs patch of ppg seasons in Washington somehow drag down his career, think again. When people look back they wont even remember Jagrs time in Washington they will remember one of the most dominant offensive players in the history of the game. Maybe if he had ended his career with what he did on the Caps but he didnt he ended up in the Rangers and silenced all of the critics. It is just unforunate for Caps fans that Jagrs weaker stage of his career came when he was there. Either its a testament to Jagrs skill that he could be a ppg player in the best league in the world without trying or the NHL must just not be all that good if somebody can float to ppg numbers. Jagr was underappreciated as hell in Washington he was putting up points and all I remember hearing is people complaining about him not scoring more points, hardly an incentinve to keep performing. No Caps fan ever seems to have an answer for the question of why if Jagr was not making any effort at all he still managed to be a ppg player? surely he was making some effort or were they just tacking imaginary points on for him?


Last edited by Morozov: 07-05-2008 at 10:10 PM.
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07-05-2008, 10:19 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
exactly he wasnt working hard and yet he was still a ppg game just further testament to Jagrs skill. Almost every player has a downpatch in his career, Jagrs was still at a ppg pace and just gets overblown by angry Washington fans who wanted Jagr to actually take there franchise somewhere. The way it gets overblown is very amusing, people think Jagrs patch of ppg seasons in Washington somehow drag down his career, think again. When people look back they wont even remember Jagrs time in Washington they will remember one of the most dominant offensive players in the history of the game.
no one questions his talents.....its just the fact he uses them when he wants to. I think you are the only one I have seen that tries to spin his half-assing it in Washington into a positive thing

IMO, when people look back on his career they will remember an offensive dynamo that won many personal awards but never lead his team to the highest level. A player that wanted to be "the guy" but didnt like taking the heat that comes with that....and a player whose career is probably not among the top 10 among forwards and certainly not top 5

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07-05-2008, 10:29 PM
  #38
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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In terms of offensive ability obviously behind

Wayne
Mario
Espo
Hull
Lafleur

He's up there with Bossy, Dionne etc.

Keep in mind thats purely offensive ability. If we're counting the total package guys I want on my team, then people like Clarke, Beliveau, Richard come into play.

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07-05-2008, 10:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Jagr was underappreciated as hell in Washington he was putting up points and all I remember hearing is people complaining about him not scoring more points, hardly an incentinve to keep performing. No Caps fan ever seems to have an answer for the question of why if Jagr was not making any effort at all he still managed to be a ppg player? surely he was making some effort or were they just tacking imaginary points on for him?
First off I disagree he was under appreciated, at least coming in.

Secondly, why should what the fans think translate into not trying your hardest for your teammates and your paycheck? One would hope that you give it your all, as a leader of the team, for your teammates if nothing else.

So, its safe to assume that if Redden plays mediocre defense, score about 20 or so points, as is clearly not giving it his all....you will be fine with it? Is that what Im hearing? Same with Zherdev right? If he scores 15 goals and 40 points while not giving it his all it will be just fine with you....right?

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07-05-2008, 10:38 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scott View Post
Top 5:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Crosby
5. Jagr

Honourable mention: Orr
Crosby = HAHAHAHAHA

40 players with 500 goals and Crosby is better than 37 of them?

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Old
07-05-2008, 10:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
no one questions his talents.....its just the fact he uses them when he wants to. I think you are the only one I have seen that tries to spin his half-assing it in Washington into a positive thing

IMO, when people look back on his career they will remember an offensive dynamo that won many personal awards but never lead his team to the highest level. A player that wanted to be "the guy" but didnt like taking the heat that comes with that....and a player whose career is probably not among the top 10 among forwards and certainly not top 5
There's not one player in the history of the NHL who could have brought those penguin teams post lemieux era (97-2001) to the promise land. One individual does not make up a team, and Jagr was IN no part to blame for not bringing those penguins teams with a putrid supporting cast (ie: kip miller and jan hrdina) to the promised land.

Speaking in hypothetical terms, you can't tell me that say steve yzerman were in Jagr's place with that penguins supporting cast that they would have won one stanley cup. In the same token, put Jagr on that wings supporting cast and there is no question that he would have won multiple stanley cups.
Not comparing Jagr's leadership skills to Yzerman, but just basing my viewpoints on how Jagr was the lone star in pittsburgh for many years while carrying that team to respectability.

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Old
07-05-2008, 11:22 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by The_Eck View Post
There's not one player in the history of the NHL who could have brought those penguin teams post lemieux era (97-2001) to the promise land. One individual does not make up a team, and Jagr was IN no part to blame for not bringing those penguins teams with a putrid supporting cast (ie: kip miller and jan hrdina) to the promised land.
Plenty of talent on the 94-95 lockout team...and why do we hear about the Kip Millers and not guys like Francis, Kovalev, Straka, Lang?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Eck View Post
Speaking in hypothetical terms, you can't tell me that say steve yzerman were in Jagr's place with that penguins supporting cast that they would have won one stanley cup. In the same token, put Jagr on that wings supporting cast and there is no question that he would have won multiple stanley cups.
Not comparing Jagr's leadership skills to Yzerman, but just basing my viewpoints on how Jagr was the lone star in pittsburgh for many years while carrying that team to respectability.
I think Yzerman would have played his hardest each and every game and not mailed it in......Yzerman played on sub .500 teams 6 out of his first 8 years. Jagr on the other hand comes into the league doing nothing but winning......I dont know what would have happened if things were as you say, I just feel that Jagr isnt the kind of guy that is at his best when things are looking down.....when things are good, and he is happy, he was a force......but when the going gets tough I take my chances with Yzerman

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07-05-2008, 11:23 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
In terms of offensive ability obviously behind

Wayne
Mario
Espo
Hull
Lafleur

He's up there with Bossy, Dionne etc.

Keep in mind thats purely offensive ability. If we're counting the total package guys I want on my team, then people like Clarke, Beliveau, Richard come into play.
Espo is completely overrated as a player. Slow as hell, not that dynamic offensively and got his points playing with great players. How could you not with Orr?

Jagr one on one with Espo, Jagr would handle him offensively speaking.

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07-06-2008, 12:33 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316 View Post
Espo is completely overrated as a player. Slow as hell, not that dynamic offensively and got his points playing with great players. How could you not with Orr?
Not that dynamic offensively and dependent on Orr, yet without Orr he dominated the Summit Series, a series with some of the best and most dynamic players ever. How was that possible?

This guy was an 80 point player until he was 37, in an era where hardly anybody even played to that age. It's kind of hilarious to hear that he ''wasn't dynamic offensively'' and needed Orr.

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07-06-2008, 12:38 AM
  #45
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Jagr had a great career but he's nowhere close to Gretzky and Lemiuex. for me he's behind atleast Bobby Hull, Rocket Richard and Steve Yzerman when you are talking about all time rankings. Sure maybe a bit more gifted than Yzerman but Yzerman was a way better leader and became an elite two way player.

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07-06-2008, 01:44 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316 View Post
Espo is completely overrated as a player. Slow as hell, not that dynamic offensively and got his points playing with great players. How could you not with Orr?

Jagr one on one with Espo, Jagr would handle him offensively speaking.
Espo's greatest series came w/o Orr when he was the best Canadian player on a roster full of hall of famers and all time greats.

2 of Jagrs scoring titles came with Mario, another with Francis as his centre.

Both had the fortune to play with all time greats. Neither was merely the product of their teammates as both had great success without.

Espo had a 84 point season when Orr only played 46 games and had 31 points.

Espo's 127 point scoring title came when Orr played 67 games and scored 64 points.

He entered his prime and had 2 great seasons before Orr started to dominate the league.

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07-06-2008, 03:40 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
no one questions his talents.....its just the fact he uses them when he wants to. I think you are the only one I have seen that tries to spin his half-assing it in Washington into a positive thing

IMO, when people look back on his career they will remember an offensive dynamo that won many personal awards but never lead his team to the highest level. A player that wanted to be "the guy" but didnt like taking the heat that comes with that....and a player whose career is probably not among the top 10 among forwards and certainly not top 5
So why cant you answer my question that why if Jagr was half assing it was he a ppg player in Washington? either a half assed Jagr is better than most of the league or the league isnt that hard afterall or Jagr was just that good. I am pretty sure in the toughest league in the world you cant half ass your way to a ppg season.

Also nobody who has a clue is going to discredit Jagr for not being able to lead those bad teams to the cup, he lead the Pens to post seasons they didnt belong to. Swap Jagr with anybody on those teams and they still wouldnt be winning a cup.

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07-06-2008, 03:44 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
Plenty of talent on the 94-95 lockout team...and why do we hear about the Kip Millers and not guys like Francis, Kovalev, Straka, Lang?




I think Yzerman would have played his hardest each and every game and not mailed it in......Yzerman played on sub .500 teams 6 out of his first 8 years. Jagr on the other hand comes into the league doing nothing but winning......I dont know what would have happened if things were as you say, I just feel that Jagr isnt the kind of guy that is at his best when things are looking down.....when things are good, and he is happy, he was a force......but when the going gets tough I take my chances with Yzerman
You hear about the Kip Millers because Miller and Hrdina were absolutely horrible players and yet Jagr managed to put up 127 points with them, I asked it before and its a serious question, has an there been an Art Ross winner with worse linemates than Hrdina and Miller.

Things were only going good in Pittsburgh because of Jagr so I dont really see what you are trying to say? you say that he isnt at his best when things are down but those Pens teams would have sucked if it wasnt for Jagr he was the reason things werent down. Yeah Jagr came onto some awesome teams but then those guys were gone and it was Jagr who was the reason the Pens had such a longer string of post season appearances. Give Jagr another competent team and he could have competed for more cups but he didnt have that he had teams that didnt belong in the playoffs that he managed to make respectable.

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07-06-2008, 03:45 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
First off I disagree he was under appreciated, at least coming in.

Secondly, why should what the fans think translate into not trying your hardest for your teammates and your paycheck? One would hope that you give it your all, as a leader of the team, for your teammates if nothing else.

So, its safe to assume that if Redden plays mediocre defense, score about 20 or so points, as is clearly not giving it his all....you will be fine with it? Is that what Im hearing? Same with Zherdev right? If he scores 15 goals and 40 points while not giving it his all it will be just fine with you....right?
But how is that a good comparison? Jagr wasnt mediocre, he didnt score 15 goals and 40 points he was a point per game player. How is scoring at a point per game mediocre? you say "as a leader of the team" but Jagr wasnt a leader of the Caps, he was brought in as a star that doesnt translate to leader and yet Caps fans expected that of him. Jagr was a great leader on the Pens and a great leader on the Rangers but you cant just bring a player in to a completely new environment and say ok you are now our leader and be dissapointed when he isnt. He wasnt the type to seek a role as a leader, he turned down the captaincy on the Rangers at first I think (may be wrong?) he became a leader on the Pens as his play and meaning to the club slowly lead to him being the leader of the Penguins.


Last edited by Morozov: 07-06-2008 at 03:54 AM.
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07-06-2008, 03:49 AM
  #50
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Top 15 probably, top 20 for sure.

It's beginning to be very hard and pointless to make an exact list of "top players" unless you sort by generation. Too many rule changes have gone on, the game is much much different now. No one can really tell you who was a better player Howe or Gretzky etc...

The way I like to do it is to compare how much x player dominated in the y years he played in the NHL. Even that can be interpreted in different ways.

The other problem is that half the people voting are using statistical analysis, the other half are using his skill as a benchmark. Every person judges a player in a different way.

Point is, we'll never know. To answer the question in the OP, he was one of the very best for a very long time. That's about as accurate as this gets.


Last edited by parabola: 07-06-2008 at 03:57 AM.
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