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Jagr's Place amongst top 'FORWARDS' of all time

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Old
07-06-2008, 07:24 AM
  #51
Mothra
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
So why cant you answer my question that why if Jagr was half assing it was he a ppg player in Washington? either a half assed Jagr is better than most of the league or the league isnt that hard afterall or Jagr was just that good. I am pretty sure in the toughest league in the world you cant half ass your way to a ppg season.
again, there is no "if"....he outright admits it

and again, his playing at a PPG level is WELL below what was expected of him and what he could have done....I dont know what your asking here. He admits not giving it his best.....his production proves that. He was putting up PPH numbers because he is that talented, have you heard me say he wasnt talented? What im calling out is his effort, which again he admits wasnt there.....are you suggesting if he didnt give it his best effort he would have had zero points?

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07-06-2008, 07:29 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
But how is that a good comparison? Jagr wasnt mediocre, he didnt score 15 goals and 40 points he was a point per game player. How is scoring at a point per game mediocre? you say "as a leader of the team" but Jagr wasnt a leader of the Caps, he was brought in as a star that doesnt translate to leader and yet Caps fans expected that of him.
its a good comparison because its about reasonable expectations and falling well short. If Zherdev plays at PPG level it would be above that.....if he scores 15 goals and loafs it will be below. Jagr at a PPG level, clearly not trying some nights was below what was expected and what he was being paid.

When you have a letter on your sweater you are expected top be a leader....are you really arguing that and again blaming Cap fans?

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07-06-2008, 07:35 AM
  #53
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All-time, at worst, Jagr's a top 20 forward all-time.

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07-06-2008, 08:48 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
its a good comparison because its about reasonable expectations and falling well short. If Zherdev plays at PPG level it would be above that.....if he scores 15 goals and loafs it will be below. Jagr at a PPG level, clearly not trying some nights was below what was expected and what he was being paid.

When you have a letter on your sweater you are expected top be a leader....are you really arguing that and again blaming Cap fans?
Again so Jagr has a downpatch in his career yet was still a ppg player, he cant have been at his best every single season. Having a letter on your sweater may mean the coaches are expecting you to lead but it doesnt make you a leader, if I was coaching the Rangers and give Zherdev the C does that mean he is expected to be a leader? by me being a moron coach maybe but not by anybody else. Maybe the Caps should have thought a bit more about who they give the letters to. He certainly didnt deserve a letter on the Caps and I doubt he probably wanted one yet its his fault that he didnt lead? no, management needs to be smarter than to give players that havent earned letters a letter. Again Jagr captaining in Pittsburgh wasnt because he was a natural leader it was because he grew into that role due to his meaning to the organization, that sort of situation can not be instantly replicated the moment he is moved to another franchise. He isnt the player that you say here you are now captain you are the leader, that isnt the sort of person Jagr is.

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07-06-2008, 08:50 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
again, there is no "if"....he outright admits it

and again, his playing at a PPG level is WELL below what was expected of him and what he could have done....I dont know what your asking here. He admits not giving it his best.....his production proves that. He was putting up PPH numbers because he is that talented, have you heard me say he wasnt talented? What im calling out is his effort, which again he admits wasnt there.....are you suggesting if he didnt give it his best effort he would have had zero points?
So a half assed Jagr is still good enough to put up a ppg pace in the NHL. Call out his effort all you want but this was the low part of his career which almost every player has and he was still a ppg, like I said if he had ended his career on that note it would be a different story but he went to the Rangers and showed the critics where to shove it. People try to paint out the image of Jagr constantly not putting in effort and that it somehow held his career back.


Last edited by Morozov: 07-06-2008 at 08:58 AM.
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07-06-2008, 09:00 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Again so Jagr has a downpatch in his career yet was still a ppg player, he cant have been at his best every single season. Having a letter on your sweater may mean the coaches are expecting you to lead but it doesnt make you a leader, if I was coaching the Rangers and give Zherdev the C does that mean he is expected to be a leader? by me being a moron coach maybe but not by anybody else. Maybe the Caps should have thought a bit more about who they give the letters to. He certainly didnt deserve a letter on the Caps and I doubt he probably wanted one yet its his fault that he didnt lead? no, management needs to be smarter than to give players that havent earned letters a letter. Again Jagr captaining in Pittsburgh wasnt because he was a natural leader it was because he grew into that role due to his meaning to the organization, that sort of situation can not be instantly replicated the moment he is moved to another franchise. He isnt the player that you say here you are now captain you are the leader, that isnt the sort of person Jagr is.
so in short, nothing is Jagr's fault right?

The fans expected too much and since he wasnt "appreciated" it was too difficult for him to actually try his best. The ownership, who are paying him more than anyone in the NHL, shouldnt expect his best effort. His teammates also shouldnt expect him to give it his all.

The Caps management made the mistake of giving him the A when he "probably didnt want it", so any lack of leadership, or even being a good teammate, falls on management, not Jagr.


that sum it up?

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07-06-2008, 09:03 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
so in short, nothing is Jagr's fault right?

The fans expected too much and since he wasnt "appreciated" it was too difficult for him to actually try his best. The ownership, who are paying him more than anyone in the NHL, shouldnt expect his best effort. His teammates also shouldnt expect him to give it his all.

The Caps management made the mistake of giving him the A when he "probably didnt want it", so any lack of leadership, or even being a good teammate, falls on management, not Jagr.


that sum it up?
The Caps management did make the mistake of giving him an A when he just showed up and wasnt a natural leader, he had no business wearing an A on that team except the Caps werent clued in enough to realise this. Lack of leadership doesnt fall on Jagr because leadership wasnt a large part of who he is and to expect leadership out of somebody who doesnt naturally display leadership and then be upset that the person didnt display leadership is hardly fair on that person now is it. He wasnt appreciated, he put up a ppg and people just complained about how it wasnt good enough, nobody seemed to want to encourage him to do more they just wanted to tear him down. People want to take his lack of leadership in Washington and use that to try and belittle his career despite the fact that when he was in the position to actually be a leader on the Pens and Rangers he was damn good at it.

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07-06-2008, 09:05 AM
  #58
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So a half assed Jagr is still good enough to put up a ppg pace in the NHL. Call out his effort all you want but this was the low part of his career which almost every player has and he was still a ppg, like I said if he had ended his career on that note it would be a different story but he went to the Rangers and showed the critics where to shove it. People try to paint out the image of Jagr constantly not putting in effort and that it somehow held his career back.
I dont need to call out his effort, he admits it. I ask again....is it ok for a player to not play hard and give it his best effort?

If he ended his career like he played in Washington I think he would take less of a hit as it would look like he just declined. The fact he dominated the season before coming to Washington, and the season after he left only proves more than he just didnt care being a Capital.

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07-06-2008, 09:09 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
I dont need to call out his effort, he admits it. I ask again....is it ok for a player to not play hard and give it his best effort?

If he ended his career like he played in Washington I think he would take less of a hit as it would look like he just declined. The fact he dominated the season before coming to Washington, and the season after he left only proves more than he just didnt care being a Capital.
Is it not ok for a player to have a down patch in his career? completely unheard of for a player to go through a downpatch in his career for any reason at all. How does he take less of a hit if he goes out as a Capital lol did you even see him play for the Rangers, what a joke. You use leadership against him yet that wasnt who he was and the Caps thinking otherwise were hurting themselves that isnt Jagrs fault, you use Jagrs contract against him, again that isnt Jagrs fault that he signs for so much money.

Also the season after he left the Caps he didnt dominate, the season he was traded he was just under ppg for the Rangers and then the next season was lockout, it was the season after the lockout that he put up 123 for Rags. So you may aswell change your "and the season after" to and then after 31 games with the Rangers and a season cut out due to the lockout he dominated.


Last edited by Morozov: 07-06-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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07-06-2008, 09:13 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
The Caps management did make the mistake of giving him an A when he just showed up and wasnt a natural leader, he had no business wearing an A on that team except the Caps werent clued in enough to realise this. Lack of leadership doesnt fall on Jagr because leadership wasnt a large part of who he is and to expect leadership out of somebody who doesnt naturally display leadership and then be upset that the person didnt display leadership is hardly fair on that person now is it.
so it was a mistake giving him the A in Washington but it wasnt a mistake to do the same thing in NY?

how does that work?

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07-06-2008, 09:19 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
so it was a mistake giving him the A in Washington but it wasnt a mistake to do the same thing in NY?

how does that work?
lol if you cant appreciate that the circumstances are different and that the giving of letters should not follow strict rules then I am afraid this argument wont go too far. Many people have made mistakes in who they give letters to, its important to be able to read the person or have some sort of assurance they will deliver if given the letter it should never be given on just some weak assumption which is what the Caps were going on. Fact is the Caps brought in Jagr expecting him to be the guy he was on the Penguins but the situation was entirely different thus they obviously didnt get the intagibels that Jagrs had there. Again the intagibles Jagr had on the Pens teams that he carried werent his natural personality they came from how connected he was with the Pens and he had a connection with the Rangers aswell. This isnt Yzerman he isnt a natural leader but he is a capable leader in the right environment, you cant punish him for expecting him to lead in a situation where he isnt comfortable because that is the sort of person he is. Fact is expecting Jagr to lead the Caps was a bad expectation on the Caps end, the results are more than testament enough to that.

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07-06-2008, 09:23 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Is it not ok for a player to have a down patch in his career? completely unheard of for a player to go through a downpatch in his career for any reason at all. How does he take less of a hit if he goes out as a Capital lol did you even see him play for the Rangers, what a joke. You use leadership against him yet that wasnt who he was and the Caps thinking otherwise were hurting themselves that isnt Jagrs fault, you use Jagrs contract against him, again that isnt Jagrs fault that he signs for so much money.
If the down patch is because he mailed it in, no....its not ok

So he wasnt supposed to be a leader in Washington, but he was supposed to be one in NY?

If Jagr didnt want to stay in Washington he didnt have to sign, simple as that. Again....nothing is Jagr's fault in your mind

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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Also the season after he left the Caps he didnt dominate, the season he was traded he was just under ppg for the Rangers and then the next season was lockout, it was the season after the lockout that he put up 123 for Rags. So you may aswell change your "and the season after" to and then after 31 games with the Rangers and a season cut out due to the lockout he dominated.
right...the "next season"....seeing how the lockout washed out a season the "next season" was.....well....the "next season". Are you resorting to arguing the meaning of "next season" now?

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07-06-2008, 09:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
If the down patch is because he mailed it in, no....its not ok

So he wasnt supposed to be a leader in Washington, but he was supposed to be one in NY?

If Jagr didnt want to stay in Washington he didnt have to sign, simple as that. Again....nothing is Jagr's fault in your mind



right...the "next season"....seeing how the lockout washed out a season the "next season" was.....well....the "next season". Are you resorting to arguing the meaning of "next season" now?
Anyone expecting Jagr to show up and be a leader in Washington were foolish, proof is in the pudding. Jagr came to the Rangers rejuvinated what a shock that he was more inclined to lead lol. Jagr isnt a natural leader, how many times does this need to be said before it gets into your head? JAGR IS NOT A NATURAL LEADER, the Caps expected him to be. There bad expectation is not Jagrs fault. If I am Pens gm and I trade for Cheechoo and give him an A and expect him to be the leader of the Pens and he doesnt display much leadership is that Cheechoos fault? no ofcourse it isnt. Also the lockout season isnt washed out Jagr still played a season of hockey so it wasnt the "next season" at all, it was 31 games + a season in europe, you make it sound like he went straight from the Caps to the Rangers and scored 123 points but he didnt he went from teh Caps to the Rangers, played 31 games and got under a ppg, spent a year in europe and then scored 123 points for the Rangers. BIG different, doesnt really make any sense that after a year away during which he got to play back in his home country he comes back as a more interested player. What a shock. Hell Jagrs first season on the Caps he was 5th in the league in scoring and only played 69 games and nobody scored 100 points let alone 120 something. Only one player had over 90 points ffs.

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07-06-2008, 09:34 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
lol if you cant appreciate that the circumstances are different and that the giving of letters should not follow strict rules then I am afraid this argument wont go too far. Many people have made mistakes in who they give letters to, its important to be able to read the person or have some sort of assurance they will deliver if given the letter it should never be given on just some weak assumption which is what the Caps were going on. Fact is the Caps brought in Jagr expecting him to be the guy he was on the Penguins but the situation was entirely different thus they obviously didnt get the intagibels that Jagrs had there. Again the intagibles Jagr had on the Pens teams that he carried werent his natural personality they came from how connected he was with the Pens and he had a connection with the Rangers aswell. This isnt Yzerman he isnt a natural leader but he is a capable leader in the right environment, you cant punish him for expecting him to lead in a situation where he isnt comfortable because that is the sort of person he is. Fact is expecting Jagr to lead the Caps was a bad expectation on the Caps end, the results are more than testament enough to that.
But you said.....

"Jagr because leadership wasnt a large part of who he is and to expect leadership out of somebody who doesnt naturally display leadership"

"He isnt the player that you say here you are now captain you are the leader, that isnt the sort of person Jagr is"

"he was in the position to actually be a leader on the Pens and Rangers he was damn good at it"

So leadership wasnt a part of who Jagr is, he isnt a player you give a letter to and expect some leadership, but he was "damn good at it" everywhere but in Washington......again, Jagr is without flaws or faults. Its all the Caps fault for paying him so much, for asking him to produce even close to what he did before and after he was part of the team....or to show the "damn good" leadership he displayed on both sides of his time in Washington....Its all the Caps fault

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07-06-2008, 09:40 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
But you said.....

"Jagr because leadership wasnt a large part of who he is and to expect leadership out of somebody who doesnt naturally display leadership"

"He isnt the player that you say here you are now captain you are the leader, that isnt the sort of person Jagr is"

"he was in the position to actually be a leader on the Pens and Rangers he was damn good at it"

So leadership wasnt a part of who Jagr is, he isnt a player you give a letter to and expect some leadership, but he was "damn good at it" everywhere but in Washington......again, Jagr is without flaws or faults. Its all the Caps fault for paying him so much, for asking him to produce even close to what he did before and after he was part of the team....or to show the "damn good" leadership he displayed on both sides of his time in Washington....Its all the Caps fault
What do you not understand about Jagr not being a natural leader, he grew into being a leader on the Penguins and then the Capitals trade for him and expect the same thing. Im getting pretty bored of this because the whole concept that Jagr is not a natural leader doesnt seem to get into your head. He is a capable leader when in the right situation as I stated but this doesnt seem to make sense to you. I am pretty sure Jagr turned down the captaincy on the Rangers at first for this reason and because he didnt feel he had earned the captaincy. It is the Caps fault they paid him so much lol he didnt offer himself the contract now did he? you may aswell blame Yashin for signing his massive deal with the Islanders aswell. Are you denying that Jagr was a great leader in Pittsburgh and on the Rangers, or are you trying to argue that Jagr was a natural leader? I mean by what your saying, if the Capitals were fair in expectating Jagr to be a leader on the Capitals then what your saying is that Jagr was a natural leader and that is just plain wrong. The Capitals were wrong to expect anything but points from Jagr, and they got points but you dont seem to acknowledge this, while he was putting in no effort he was fifth in the league in scoring playing 69 games. Maybe you dont remember that season very well but that was the season when nobody was scoring much at all, Jagr gets fifth in the league in scoring (dear god he wasnt top three for once) and suddenly the Capitals fans have something to ***** about lol. They all wanted 120 point Jagr yet nobody in the league could even break 100 points. Also your quotes arent even exact quotes so if your going to try and quote me atleast bother to do the quote properly.

From what you are trying to argue here it seems that you expected Jagr to be a leader on the Capitals, this was foolish of you because that isnt who Jagr is. Jagr displaying leadership qualities was an added bonus, again this isnt Yzerman he isnt a guy that is born to lead Jagr was born to score points and he did that. You act as if the idea of him being able to be a good leader in some places and not in others is some big mystery lol. That is only a mystery if you for some reason have the idea that Jagr is a natural leader which he isnt, to anyone else who actually knows anything about Jagr it makes sense. The Caps giving Jagr a letter when he shouldnt have had one is Jagrs fault how? the Caps offering Jagr big dollars is Jagrs fault how? again you ignore points I make, if I sign Hemsky as a free agent to a 10 million dollar contract and make him captain, is it his fault that he isnt scoring at the rate a 10 million dollar player supposedly should? is it his fault that he isnt being a good captain?


Last edited by Morozov: 07-06-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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07-06-2008, 09:44 AM
  #66
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I would suggest to you that you put this in the History of Hockey section. You will get a lot better responses than you have been getting. I would put him around the 15th spot of forwards.

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07-06-2008, 10:42 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakar Lajos View Post
Pure offensive talent? I've been watching hockey since 1992 so I can really only comment on the players I've seen since then.

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Jagr

From what I've read and heard discussed I think all-time may be

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Richard
5. Hull
6. Bossy

then maybe Jagr. Some people may put Jagr in the top-5 though. Probably never in the top-4 though.
I think I'd rate Jagr ahead of Bossy. I mean, you look at their best 5 seasons and they're almost identical.

Jagr
149, 127, 123, 121, 70 (120 point pace in the strike-shortened season)

Bossy
147, 126, 123, 119, 118

But if you take era into account, it's not really that close. Bossy was the better goalscorer, but in terms of all-around offense I think it's clearly Jagr.

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