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07-12-2008, 08:47 AM
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Antidote
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Overtraining in California?

Although I couldn't find the threads, the question of a relationship between intense training programs and on-ice injuries has come up before. This article is about that great hockey fan, Tiger Woods, and speculation that his double stress fracture and torn ACL in his left leg are the result of weight training which produced an upper body that his lower body can't support.

Larry Holt, a retired professor of kinesiology in the School of Health and Human Performance at Dalhousie University:

"His type of injuries were self-inflicted and are not related to practising or playing golf, but through his non-specific training that has virtually no positive influence on how he plays the game."

In Holt's view, Woods put too much stress on his lower body over the years by lifting weights, adding muscle and therefore weight to his upper body. Holt said that Woods "placed his ectomorphic body [long and slender, like that of a marathon runner] through intense resistance training, bringing out the mesomorphic [muscular, "ripped" look by nature] component, adding muscle tissue, body weight that increased the forces on landing every time he ran. The stress fractures had nothing to do with golf, and neither did the knee problems."


Holt is no fan of what he calls the "optimization" myth in sports, which suggests that athletes can improve by becoming stronger.

"You have to ask the question, 'What are the demands of a sport?' I'm not against non-specific training [such as heavy lifting], just against doing things that cause injury or predispose a person to them, without any evidence that the exercise program actually improves performance."


http://www.globesports.com/servlet/s...portsGolf/home

Chad Moreau's program in California is the Oilers' gold standard for off-ice training but are there direct links between the program and on-ice performance? Also, can intense training possibly lead to injuries like the one Raffi Torres suffered? Stoll, for example, is completely ripped but does that directly relate to hockey-specific muscle development and ultimately on-ice performance? It used to be said that Bobby Hull had the perfect hockey body but does that mean that Riley Nash (ectomorph) will become a better hockey player if he intensely trains to look like Hull (mesomorph)?

Not trying to compare the two sports or resurrect Woods' love of hockey comments but was wondering if intense training is the answer we normally think it is and can it also increase the prospect of Woods-type injuries? Thoughts?

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07-12-2008, 09:11 AM
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I would completely disagree with the article written. Tiger Woods' knee injury is exactly golf specific. It is not an injury that the "average" golfer would sustain but it is a golf specific injury to Tiger. His swing is geared for power. He generates power with an extremely distinct snap of his left leg through impact. That snap puts incredible amounts of stress and tourque on his knee. Now repeat that movement hundreds of times a day with practice and playing and you will have ligaments and tendons break down.

Further to this, I cannot see how strength training would not be beneficial to Woods. Power, in the golf swing, is generated using your "big" muscle groups in your body. The legs and the abdomin are the key muscles used when making a proper golf swing. If these muscles are better developed then it is easier to generate power. Strength training, specifically in your legs, is exactly what a golfer should be focusing on.

As far as how this relates to the Oilers, this has been debated in the past. I argue that there is no correlation with the strength training regimine and the injuries suffered. The reason why is most of the injuries have occurred based on freak accidents/blows. Matt Greene broke his ankle after an awkward fall, Moreau broke his leg blocking a shot, Torres had a partial knee on knee collision, Souray has shoulder issues dating far back and he fell in a fight seperating his shoulder, and Horcoff, by most accounts, has had a lingering shoulder problem for a while as well.

These are not muscle strains, pulls or tears, or stress fractures they are injuries caused by contact. I can see the arguments the other way, but from what I have seen they are more the result of the sport being played than the offseason training regiment.

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07-12-2008, 09:25 AM
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Larry Holt has retired and Dalhousie may need a new head of kinesiology... go for it dude

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07-12-2008, 09:44 AM
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I find it interesting that most of the reporting that has gone on about how many man games we have lost in the past years has not led back to our newest strength and conditioning coach. Chad Moreau. This guy has been responsible for more injuries over the past two years with his ridiculous practices, (1 rep max clean and jerk - what for?)

Many, if not all of these guys spend tonnes of time getting in shape but rarely use olympic lifting, but Moreau has them tested on it. Completely ridonkulous.

I wonder why he still has a job.

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07-12-2008, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
I find it interesting that most of the reporting that has gone on about how many man games we have lost in the past years has not led back to our newest strength and conditioning coach. Chad Moreau. This guy has been responsible for more injuries over the past two years with his ridiculous practices, (1 rep max clean and jerk - what for?)

Many, if not all of these guys spend tonnes of time getting in shape but rarely use olympic lifting, but Moreau has them tested on it. Completely ridonkulous.

I wonder why he still has a job.
What injuries has he been responsible for?

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07-12-2008, 09:57 AM
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Larry Holt has retired and Dalhousie may need a new head of kinesiology... go for it dude

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07-12-2008, 09:58 AM
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I am speaking in generalities: Since Chad Moreau has been hired, we have logged the most man games lost.... Stands to reason that all of our team didn't change, their programs did.

Certain aspects of the fitness testing that happens at the U of A has been changed by him when I am not sure there has been a need for it....

If you have ever done any olympic lifting, this type of strength program leads to many misuse injuries. Which inturn makes the athlete more susceptible for impact injuries ala Sheldon Souray.

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07-12-2008, 09:59 AM
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Off topic but I agree with Walsher here. If you read Wood's bible on learning to play golf he describes a snapping move that he does with his left knee to add an extra 10-15 yards. Coincidence that he has repeat knee surgeries on his left knee?

I find it difficult to look at Chad Moreau as being the source of blame for our injuries. The majority of injuries are just not consistent with anything other than horrible luck. I suppose Horcoff's shoulder injuries could be due to a work out induced strain/injury. But if anything, adding additional muscle and support to them would have delayed the need for surgery non?

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07-12-2008, 10:09 AM
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Horrible luck? I would hate to think that luck could have that much to do with it.

Amazing coincidence perhaps.


Regardless, I think it should be considered. As antidote indicated this program gets these guys in shape, but how hockey specific is it, and if there is a chance it is causing multiple injuries, why are they still prescribing to it?

On the brink of another exciting season, the last thing I want to here in the first two months is "Lubomir Vishnovsky will miss 6-8 weeks..... along with Eric Cole who will miss 4-5 weeks on top of Sam Gagner's season ending injury....

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07-12-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
I would completely disagree with the article written. Tiger Woods' knee injury is exactly golf specific. It is not an injury that the "average" golfer would sustain but it is a golf specific injury to Tiger. His swing is geared for power. He generates power with an extremely distinct snap of his left leg through impact. That snap puts incredible amounts of stress and tourque on his knee. Now repeat that movement hundreds of times a day with practice and playing and you will have ligaments and tendons break down.
half true. some of Tiger's injuries were from running and over-training. its well-documented that his fractures were from running. he'd probably benefit more by doing low impact training like cycling instead of running. Adam Scott does cycling instead of running. Tiger's just a moron. and seriously, if youre snapping your leg during a golf swing - youre dumb in the first place to do something so harsh to your limbs consistently. same thing goes for baseball pitchers. unnatural movements that are that harsh on your limbs is stupidity.

Jack Nicklaus might not of had the same power, obviously, but his mechanics were good enough to make him the best. Tiger's swing mechanics are damaging. thats his fault. he sacrificed injury for power. Jack didn't. Tiger's swing puts way more pressure on the body. he might be amazing but he's pretty dumb.

"but Tiger's power changed the game to make courses longer." and it ruined his legs.

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07-12-2008, 10:16 AM
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Chad Moreau has worked with the Oilers for several years not just the last two.

And again challenge any of you to show me how Chad Moreau's program is different than any other trainer in the NHL.

Until you can actually estabish that what Chad Moreau does is different that the other trainers the supposition that it is Chad Moreau's training program is detrimental to the Oilers and causes injuries has no legs.

To be able to show a link.

1. You would have to show that Chad Moreau has changed his training over the last few years because he also worked with several Oilers when the Oilers had few man games lost to injuries.

2. You would actually have to show that what Chad Moreau does is different than what other trainers and the correlation to the injuries suffered by the Oilers.

3. You would have to show that his training is the direct cause of the injuries and not the game itself or the situation. For example if a player stepped on a rut in the ice and broke his leg, it would be very difficult to prove that there would be a correlation between training and that injury.

4. The Oilers are not the first team to have high man games of injuries in a two year span? You need to show that those teams injuries were also caused by over-training and not just playing a very physical game.

Otherwise you don't have correlation or causation you have coincidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

General pattern
The *** hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy can be expressed as follows:

A occurs in correlation with B.
Therefore, A causes B.
In this type of logical fallacy, one makes a premature conclusion about causality after observing only a correlation between two or more factors. Generally, if one factor (A) is observed to only be correlated with another factor (B), it is sometimes taken for granted that A is causing B even when no evidence supports this. This is a logical fallacy because there are at least four other possibilities:

B may be the cause of A, or
some unknown third factor is actually the cause of the relationship between A and B, or
the "relationship" is so complex it can be labelled coincidental (i.e., two events occurring at the same time that have no simple relationship to each other besides the fact that they are occurring at the same time).
B may be the cause of A at the same time as A is the cause of B (contradicting that the only relationship between A and B is that A causes B). This describes a self-reinforcing system.
In other words, there can be no conclusion made regarding the existence or the direction of a cause and effect relationship only from the fact that A and B are correlated. Determining whether there is an actual cause and effect relationship requires further investigation, even when the relationship between A and B is statistically significant, a large effect size is observed, or a large part of the variance is explained.

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07-12-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
Regardless, I think it should be considered. As antidote indicated this program gets these guys in shape, but how hockey specific is it, and if there is a chance it is causing multiple injuries, why are they still prescribing to it?

On the brink of another exciting season, the last thing I want to here in the first two months is "Lubomir Vishnovsky will miss 6-8 weeks..... along with Eric Cole who will miss 4-5 weeks on top of Sam Gagner's season ending injury....
2 of those guys have never trained with Moreau and Gagner just started last year... /ugh you are stretching pretty hard to make any connection. Be careful you might pull something.


Moreau to Gagner..."No no no you are doing it all wrong, squat thrusts and awkward one arm barbell lifts with terrible positioning is the ONLY way to go. This will make you into an old time Strongman quickest!"



Last edited by The Forechecker: 07-12-2008 at 10:33 AM.
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07-12-2008, 10:29 AM
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hockeyaddict101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
I am speaking in generalities: Since Chad Moreau has been hired, we have logged the most man games lost.... Stands to reason that all of our team didn't change, their programs did.

Certain aspects of the fitness testing that happens at the U of A has been changed by him when I am not sure there has been a need for it....

If you have ever done any olympic lifting, this type of strength program leads to many misuse injuries. Which inturn makes the athlete more susceptible for impact injuries ala Sheldon Souray.
Your first assumption is flawed. (see the Oilers website and pull up his profile)

He has worked with the Oilers over several seasons, so obviously the rest of your assmption is also flawed.

Secondly, are the Oilers the only team do do weight lifting? I know for a fact that is not true. So that assumption is also flawed.

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07-12-2008, 10:32 AM
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http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?serv...LPage&id=18698

He has only had an official capacity for the past two seasons.

I will stop with this, but just wanted to see if anyone else had the same take I did.

I agree that I went about this the wrong way and won't go at it like this again. There is nothing worse than someone who gets caught up without proof. My apologies to the board.

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07-12-2008, 10:35 AM
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Walsher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
I am speaking in generalities: Since Chad Moreau has been hired, we have logged the most man games lost.... Stands to reason that all of our team didn't change, their programs did.

Certain aspects of the fitness testing that happens at the U of A has been changed by him when I am not sure there has been a need for it....

If you have ever done any olympic lifting, this type of strength program leads to many misuse injuries. Which inturn makes the athlete more susceptible for impact injuries ala Sheldon Souray.
But look at the man games lost due to injury. Pisani - Colitis, Moreau - Broken Leg, Greene, Broken Ankle, Torres - Knee from a knee and so on. I think it is a real stretch to blame the injury problems on the training regimine.

Additionally, one could also argue that without that regimine players like Horcoff would have never broken out. I look at how physically stronger and faster Horcoff came to camp following the lock-out and marvel at his dedication to training and its impact on his play.

It is easy to make generalizations and claim that X caused Y. That is what Holt is doing in that article. He makes the claim that golf movements haven't caused injury and that training has. Ernie Els blew out his knew in his spare time recreation, Chris DiMarco injured himself at a family reunion, and so on. There are 100 possibilities that could have caused Tiger problems with his knee. My girlfriends dad tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL walking their dog (slipped on a slope). Without knowing everything behind the scenes for these athletes it is impossible to make blanket claims about whatthey are and are not doing in training.

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07-12-2008, 10:39 AM
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hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?serv...LPage&id=18698

He has only had an official capacity for the past two seasons.

I will stop with this, but just wanted to see if anyone else had the same take I did.

I agree that I went about this the wrong way and won't go at it like this again. There is nothing worse than someone who gets caught up without proof. My apologies to the board.
I wasn't trying to pick on you.

This keeps on coming up but really there is no proof of the correlation between Moreau's training and the injuries.

One correlation does not prove causation and that one "supposed correlation" is even flawed as Moreau has worked with several Oilers over several seasons.

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07-12-2008, 10:41 AM
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half true. some of Tiger's injuries were from running and over-training. its well-documented that his fractures were from running. he'd probably benefit more by doing low impact training like cycling instead of running. Adam Scott does cycling instead of running. Tiger's just a moron. and seriously, if youre snapping your leg during a golf swing - youre dumb in the first place to do something so harsh to your limbs consistently. same thing goes for baseball pitchers. unnatural movements that are that harsh on your limbs is stupidity.

Jack Nicklaus might not of had the same power, obviously, but his mechanics were good enough to make him the best. Tiger's swing mechanics are damaging. thats his fault. he sacrificed injury for power. Jack didn't. Tiger's swing puts way more pressure on the body. he might be amazing but he's pretty dumb.

"but Tiger's power changed the game to make courses longer." and it ruined his legs.

You just repeatedly called one of histories greatest golfers dumb. I hate the guy more than most people, but calling him dumb because he sacrifices wear and tear on his body for competitive advantages is a bit much. Are grinders in hockey dumb? Defensive/offensive lines in football dumb?

I found it ironic yesterday reading you say that you want a girl to be attracted to you for your personality. Hows that working out for ya?

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07-12-2008, 10:45 AM
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half true. some of Tiger's injuries were from running and over-training. its well-documented that his fractures were from running. he'd probably benefit more by doing low impact training like cycling instead of running. Adam Scott does cycling instead of running. Tiger's just a moron. and seriously, if youre snapping your leg during a golf swing - youre dumb in the first place to do something so harsh to your limbs consistently. same thing goes for baseball pitchers. unnatural movements that are that harsh on your limbs is stupidity.

Jack Nicklaus might not of had the same power, obviously, but his mechanics were good enough to make him the best. Tiger's swing mechanics are damaging. thats his fault. he sacrificed injury for power. Jack didn't. Tiger's swing puts way more pressure on the body. he might be amazing but he's pretty dumb.

"but Tiger's power changed the game to make courses longer." and it ruined his legs.
I don't really want to get into a mechanics pissing contest, but I am a golf club professional (CPGA member) so have pretty good understanding on this banter. Firstly, Tiger Woods has, as many would agree, a nearly perfect swing. His fundamentals are incredible (balance, posture, stance, etc.). He isn't dumb, he is powerful. He can generate more clubhead speed than the average player due to a powerful coil and uncoil which includes the snap with his left leg. You are assuming that this injury will cripple his ability to win in the future. I think it may help. The one area he struggles with his game is off the tee and this may force him to take a more conservative swing from the tee box.

Secondly, Jack's mechanics were not perfect by any means. He is lucky that he didn't suffer from chronic back pain. Jack used the heavy reverse C swing which is no longer even considered as an acceptable swing method by most instructors. But you are right it worked. But to question Tiger's mechanics because of his knee injury is incredibly curious. The man is only the most recognizable athlete on the planet, the richest athlete on the planet, and the most dominant athlete on the planet. Let's be realistic, injuries happen, they are part of sport. You can question training, technique, this and that, but at the end of the day without that technique, without that training methodology, and without the other stuff he wouldn't be where he is.

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07-12-2008, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?serv...LPage&id=18698

He has only had an official capacity for the past two seasons.

I will stop with this, but just wanted to see if anyone else had the same take I did.

I agree that I went about this the wrong way and won't go at it like this again. There is nothing worse than someone who gets caught up without proof. My apologies to the board.
Hangins' to good for em', burnins' to good for em', stoning is the way to go

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07-12-2008, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app/?serv...LPage&id=18698

He has only had an official capacity for the past two seasons.

I will stop with this, but just wanted to see if anyone else had the same take I did.

I agree that I went about this the wrong way and won't go at it like this again. There is nothing worse than someone who gets caught up without proof. My apologies to the board.
No worries! It's an obvious connection to make but, as HA101 has pointed out, causality is hard to prove. This is particularly true because there are so many intangibles. A player can be in great physical shape but make a small mental mistake and put himself in a situation where the chances of an injury dramatically increase - Roy turning into the boards just before he gets hit. I'd like to think that the better the physical shape, the less chance of injury but it's just as hard to prove that injuries that didn't happen are the result of training.

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07-12-2008, 10:49 AM
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Fair enough.

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07-12-2008, 10:51 AM
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On the other side of the coin it does not mean that the correlation doesn't exist but IMO if it exist for the Oilers it probably exists for every team in the NHL.

Perhaps they do over train but that would be hard to prove.

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07-12-2008, 10:56 AM
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Im a Kinesiogist BTW.

IMO Tiger does train too much. Ive reviewed his training program and its overkill for a skilled sport like Golf. he is not in a Tough Man competition.

Lots of factors go in hockey, but the sport just results in lots of injuries too. Stronger, faster athletes will more easily hurt themselves or others. There is a reason kids/teens get hurt much less than pros, they are smaller/weaker/slow and they suck relatively.

Some guys might overtrain but we dont really know, since every athlete will have their own program that the trainer should have given them. Some will get max benefit from less training, some need more. Everyone needs to include rest, which is what overtraining is about; not resting enough.

overtraining syndrome is not what we are talking about here, BTW. That is totally separate and usually much worse.

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07-12-2008, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by messierfan11 View Post
Horrible luck? I would hate to think that luck could have that much to do with it.

Amazing coincidence perhaps.


Regardless, I think it should be considered. As antidote indicated this program gets these guys in shape, but how hockey specific is it, and if there is a chance it is causing multiple injuries, why are they still prescribing to it?

On the brink of another exciting season, the last thing I want to here in the first two months is "Lubomir Vishnovsky will miss 6-8 weeks..... along with Eric Cole who will miss 4-5 weeks on top of Sam Gagner's season ending injury....
As far as I know, Lubo doesn't train with CM; neither does Cole. Gagner trains in Ontario with his Dad (see Nike commericals from last year).

Besides the regulars from last year, the only new edtions I know of from this year are Penner and Schremp (and a few other Falcons players as well). Speaking of Schremp, he didn't go to Cali last year because he was coming off a major knee injury. I guess it is possible for players do get hurt without training with Chad after all...

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07-12-2008, 11:09 AM
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Unless dropping a 50 lb dumbbell on the ice created the cracks/ruts responsible for Raffi's knee and Matt Greene's knee and Moreau's ankle re-injury, I have trouble believing the injuries are directly related to training regimen. C'mon people, hockey is a high pace game and players will always be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have suffered 2 unlucky seasons, and now its time to pass the injury torch... hopefully to a team just south of us.

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