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Overtraining in California?

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Old
07-12-2008, 02:10 PM
  #51
Oilerdiehard
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Asher thanks for that video. I did not realize the players were doing the training regiment all the way back to the Summer before our Cup run year.

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07-12-2008, 02:10 PM
  #52
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I'm not trying to link Tiger's injuries with Moreau's training program.

Schremp has been training in California with Moreau for more than six weeks. It is ridiculous to think that injuries from over-training are limited only to amateurs since professional bodybuilders anticipate such injuries as part of their training routine!

bucks_oil is correct. The aforementioned muscle/joint injuries are common with over-training when the program is designed for power: something that is dangerous to begin with in the most fit athlete since it teeters on the edge of maximum weight/reps and failure. The injuries are on-ice rather than in training but the body is still vulnerable.

The only way to properly recover from such intense workouts is to use steroids or the body well become more prone to breakdown. Even if they eat 6000 calories and sleep 9-12 hours per day the human body can only recover to a certain degree. That is why professional bodybuilders say their bodies wake them up to eat, but then again many of them are on steroids.

The recent natural Mr. Universe used a cross training program where he would only lift one muscle group per week to allow it to properly recover and would never spend more than 1 hour weightlifting every second day (Daniel Craig used same mentality for Bond). My brother used this philosophy to gain 15 pounds of wet muscle in three months and do things that professional trainers could not even attempt. There has been a revolution in weight training over the last few years where most people now realize the importance of recovery and the uselessness of lifting more than one hour in the gym.

Doubles is used to increase oxygen to the muscles/body and promote athletic performance but it hampers bulking gains to a certain degree. It is dangerous to use it for an extended period of time.

I would like to see CM do a one legged wall squat for 10+ minutes straight, 100 plyo push-ups (clapping with feet jumping 1 foot vertically in air for one rep, 240 pound overweight individual), walk down the stairs in wheel (yoga exorcist move) or any of the other fitness benchmarks that should be achieved- all after 90 days of training without a foundation to begin with.

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07-12-2008, 05:20 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio18 View Post
There is certainly something to the trend that we are seeing. Personally I don't think we can deny there is some sort of correlation to CM's training and Oiler injuries.

CM might be doing too good of a job. There is an argument here about the mind-set and testing your bodies outer limits. Optimal shape comes with a whole new range of capabilities and going for too much can take you beyond your bodies tolerance.

All we have to do is watch CM's clients and track games played. As it stands his bro isn't making a good argument for his program. Who has been pushing this program? Who has been subscribing to the program the longest? etc.

This season should be very telling.
My company started making making record profits since I was hired. So I must be responsible. This year will be the telling year.

Do you see the flaw in the above? It is not different than the flaw in your logic about Chad Moreau!

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07-12-2008, 05:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
You know.... I tend to agree with MessierFan11.

I think there is some correlation between CM's training and the injuries we are seeing. (pause)

That said, I think that HA101 is correct, it would be impossible to lay blame... unless someone is willing to do a complex and well-controlled comparison study complete with a full statistical analysis of regression....

but really... can't we just use common sense? Moreau's training is very likely a positive component of a program that could greatly enhance our players' fitness. I think the problem is that as it is currently being used, it is overutilized and probably not part of what should be a "balanced" program.

Lifting weights all summer is going to do a few things... one, it is going to increase the proportion of slow-twitch, powerful muscle mass... the amount of fast-twitch, or the muscles that allow you to quickly correct your body position (say you skate into a rut) will be reduced, or at least relatively reduced compared to your newly acquired power.

The second thing (that anyone who works out knows) is that unless you specifically focus on it, your flexibility is going to suffer. Combining increased power in your larger muscle groups without adding increased (or at least maintained) flexibility could in part explain several of these joint injuries that we are seeing.

I dunno... I'm not trying to say that it is even possible to know all of the answers... but to me it *smells* like maybe the oilers aren't focussing enough on "fitness" in the wholistic sense, and instead are acting like a bunch of meatheads trying to bulk up their power in the only season where they have real time to do so. In the absense of all of the rest of their training in practice, etc... they are getting a little out of balance, so to speak.
Again can you show me evidence that Moreau's program is different in this respect that what other players do on other teams? Or what other trainer do in other hockey programs?

Or that his program relies solely on weight training all summer and only weight training or even an over preponderance of weight trainng?

Is it more than what other trainers or other teams do?

You are making assumptions but I don't see any evidence to back up your hypothesis.

To be frank I have seen no evidence in any of the many threads that show Moreau's program is significantly different that other hockey programs or other hockey trainers.

Correlation does not mean causation!


Last edited by hockeyaddict101: 07-12-2008 at 05:42 PM.
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07-12-2008, 05:43 PM
  #55
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Yeah, there are two or three major flaws in the logic here.

1. Confusing correlation with causation.
2. Assuming correlation on the basis of just two data points. If you want to do a more rigorous analysis than looking at total man-games lost over the last two seasons, then go ahead and do so, but so far no one has done so. If you want to do a player-by-player analysis, then go ahead and do so, but make sure it's complete, including players who participated in the offseason program and weren't injured, or those who didn't participate and were. Highlighting a few players that fit the preconceived assumptions isn't really proving anything.
3. Assuming that Chad Moreau coming on board in an official capacity was the only variable that changed between the 05/06 season and the 06/07 season. If you want to blame the offseason program, you're going to have to eliminate all other variables that changed at the same time as possible causes.

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07-12-2008, 06:13 PM
  #56
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Keep in mind everyone that Tiger was coming off of surgery before playing in the US Open so he wasn't 100%.

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07-12-2008, 06:13 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
I'd love to check it out... what's the link (oilers website is pretty huge).
I'm glad somebody posted one of the videos I was talking about, there is another one. I'm completely useless when it comes to providing links for people, so sorry.

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07-12-2008, 06:26 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by rye&ginger View Post
Im a Kinesiogist BTW.

IMO Tiger does train too much. Ive reviewed his training program and its overkill for a skilled sport like Golf. he is not in a Tough Man competition.

Lots of factors go in hockey, but the sport just results in lots of injuries too. Stronger, faster athletes will more easily hurt themselves or others. There is a reason kids/teens get hurt much less than pros, they are smaller/weaker/slow and they suck relatively.

Some guys might overtrain but we dont really know, since every athlete will have their own program that the trainer should have given them. Some will get max benefit from less training, some need more. Everyone needs to include rest, which is what overtraining is about; not resting enough.

overtraining syndrome is not what we are talking about here, BTW. That is totally separate and usually much worse.

I could not agree more. Strength and conditioning training is very common throughout professional sports these days. What Chad Moreau does is not that exceptional. Playing semi-pro soccer, we have done similar routines.
The reason is simle: to get an edge over the opposition, you need to get faster and stronger, and such programs help to do that.

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07-12-2008, 09:19 PM
  #59
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Well Gagner is hard at work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkqqKGi3hTk&e

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07-12-2008, 09:27 PM
  #60
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the question then is...does training with CM in Cali actually help the Oiler players?

as I have yet to see any evidence that is does.

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07-12-2008, 09:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jesus View Post
the question then is...does training with CM in Cali actually help the Oiler players?

as I have yet to see any evidence that is does.

This is tantamount to asking whether training helps period? Silly question.
One does not go anywhere in professional sports without strength and conditioning training these days.

Again from my own experience--guys who are less willing to do work in the gym get hurt more frequently and the levels of their performance are more likely to drop during the long season.

Chad Moreau is no doubt a good specialist who knows about training process more than any of the resident experts. Believe me if there was some problem with his progamming players would be the first to complain. They love the guy, and they are ot tools either as far as training is concerned.

Don't look for the problem where there is none.

As has been pointed out multiple times, most of the injuries were accident types--broken ankles from pucks hitting them (Moreau, Greene), reactivated chronic injuries (Souray), knee-on-knee collision (Torres). Horcoff's is the only injury that is doubtful, but then again, it is a high speed contact sports. He could have been taken to the boards or landed awkwardly on his shoulder. Any of those could initiate a partial tear that got aggravated as he continued to play through pain.

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07-13-2008, 07:09 AM
  #62
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If the oilers go through another 500game injured year--questions need to be asked about the training

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07-13-2008, 07:38 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
This is tantamount to asking whether training helps period? Silly question.
One does not go anywhere in professional sports without strength and conditioning training these days.
They all train somewhere... I think the question is whether this specific training is all it's cracked up to be, or whether players are better off with CM's training or with Dave Gagner's training, or U of A training etc. etc.

Not knowing anything about it, I'd guess they're all similar... but it annoys me a little when people make more out of these Cali trips than I think they deserve...

I doubt it has much to do with injuries, but lets face it, even when uninjured, I didn't see any more on ice improvement from the players... Stoll and Torres didn't seem to benifit from their off seasons more than Gilbert or Grebs...

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07-13-2008, 08:32 AM
  #64
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The injuries incurred by Woods are realistic, as it is important to make sure one has enough upper and lower body strength to create a balance.

The thing is, hockey players have perhaps more lower body strength than any other athlete. Their game relies on having powerful legs, and I doubt any injuries are going to be caused by similar effects.

If anything, the rigidity of the muscles and tendons induced by working out really IMO reduces a player's motility and flexibility (something we don't see with Hemsky). They are less able to take certain hits, and in that I think you see things like fractures and sprains.

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07-13-2008, 09:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
They all train somewhere... I think the question is whether this specific training is all it's cracked up to be, or whether players are better off with CM's training or with Dave Gagner's training, or U of A training etc. etc.

Not knowing anything about it, I'd guess they're all similar... but it annoys me a little when people make more out of these Cali trips than I think they deserve...

I doubt it has much to do with injuries, but lets face it, even when uninjured, I didn't see any more on ice improvement from the players... Stoll and Torres didn't seem to benifit from their off seasons more than Gilbert or Grebs...
I agree with what you are saying, but hockey has more than physical element to it. Otherwise Marty Reasoner Reasoner would be Joe Sakic and Matt Greene would instantly turn into a Chris Pronger.
When the Oilers had star players in the line-up during the 2006 Cup run, they also looked physically dominant during many of the games (remember how they ran SJ off the ice). And I don't think it's coincidence.

I will once again have to bring in examples from personal experience. I have played on a number of good and VERY crappy soccer teams in my life. For the most part my conditioning was on about the same level every year (i.e. consistently higher than the team/league average). But when my team-mates were playing good and doing their jobs, it was easy enough for me to use my speed/strength/endurance and at times dominate at my position.

But when the whole team is in disarray, you are scrambling to close the gaps, you are running a bit harder than you would prefer, you get out of position, finally you suck with the rest of the team...


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07-13-2008, 09:40 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
You know.... I tend to agree with MessierFan11.

I think there is some correlation between CM's training and the injuries we are seeing. (pause)

That said, I think that HA101 is correct, it would be impossible to lay blame... unless someone is willing to do a complex and well-controlled comparison study complete with a full statistical analysis of regression....

but really... can't we just use common sense? Moreau's training is very likely a positive component of a program that could greatly enhance our players' fitness. I think the problem is that as it is currently being used, it is overutilized and probably not part of what should be a "balanced" program.

Lifting weights all summer is going to do a few things... one, it is going to increase the proportion of slow-twitch, powerful muscle mass... the amount of fast-twitch, or the muscles that allow you to quickly correct your body position (say you skate into a rut) will be reduced, or at least relatively reduced compared to your newly acquired power.

The second thing (that anyone who works out knows) is that unless you specifically focus on it, your flexibility is going to suffer. Combining increased power in your larger muscle groups without adding increased (or at least maintained) flexibility could in part explain several of these joint injuries that we are seeing.

I dunno... I'm not trying to say that it is even possible to know all of the answers... but to me it *smells* like maybe the oilers aren't focussing enough on "fitness" in the wholistic sense, and instead are acting like a bunch of meatheads trying to bulk up their power in the only season where they have real time to do so. In the absense of all of the rest of their training in practice, etc... they are getting a little out of balance, so to speak.
Apparantly you didn't watch the video. The last thing they are doing is sitting around and doing meathead excercises.

They are focusing on power, speed and flexbility, so I'd say there is quite the balance there.

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07-13-2008, 09:43 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
If the oilers go through another 500game injured year--questions need to be asked about the training
There is maybe one injury I can think of that you can relate to training, and that's Moreau. The way he hurt himself leads to the question of whether it was because he did something to it while training.

The rest? I don't see how you can make a link.

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07-13-2008, 10:02 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Again can you show me evidence that Moreau's program is different in this respect that what other players do on other teams? Or what other trainer do in other hockey programs?

Or that his program relies solely on weight training all summer and only weight training or even an over preponderance of weight trainng?

Is it more than what other trainers or other teams do?

You are making assumptions but I don't see any evidence to back up your hypothesis.

To be frank I have seen no evidence in any of the many threads that show Moreau's program is significantly different that other hockey programs or other hockey trainers.

Correlation does not mean causation!

I'm not entirely sure your reaction here is all about my post, but if it is, you should relax a little.... you've got yourself worked into quite a lather.

The first thing I said in my post was that there was a correlation. The second point was to agree with you and say it is impossible to attribute causality. The third point I made was to say that CMs program is probably of great value...

but, heck yeah, I am also postulating that it *appears* to be falling short at least in terms of injury prevention. The guys who are longest into it are the guys who are (continuing) to get injured. I'm looking at Horcoff and Moreau as the best examples whereas guys like Reasoner (same age) remain relatively healthy. This is clearly not damning evidence, but it should at least raise the questions.

I'm not here to demonize CM or his program, but to suggest that "fitness" needs to have a wholistic view. It does no-one any good to have your fittest guys sitting in the pressbox.

Given what we know (not much) and what the oilers know, heck, what the field in general knows, (still plenty to learn), it would seem to make sense to me that they at least look at this correlation and see if there is anything to be learned. Perhaps the training could be better tailored to individuals (I don't think there is any point in comparing it to other teams as you suggest... the point is it should be specific to individuals) so that injury can be better avoided, perhaps it means more than one highly trained professional (say adding a physio and a recently trained athletic therapist to help advise on an individual program) would help provide additional opinions on what would work for each guy.

Anyway, I'm here to have a discussion on this, not demonize someone or to prove you right/wrong. So, you know, act accordingly

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07-13-2008, 10:11 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Apparantly you didn't watch the video. The last thing they are doing is sitting around and doing meathead excercises.

They are focusing on power, speed and flexbility, so I'd say there is quite the balance there.
You are right... I didn't watch the video. I was responding to earlier posts in this thread that discussed meathead stuff like deadlifts, and the several features i've seen on broadcasts over the years.

I think there is still room to grow and put breadth around CM's program so that it can be something of higher value to the Oilers. I don't like the idea of one guy being solely responsible for fitness, especially when there has been debatable gains from it so far. I would hope that they have, or will get, other professionals (AT, PT, nutritionist, etc) to play devils advocate and ensure a personalized approach.

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07-13-2008, 10:14 AM
  #70
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You are right... I didn't watch the video. I was responding to earlier posts in this thread that discussed meathead stuff like deadlifts, and the several features i've seen on broadcasts over the years.

I think there is still room to grow and put breadth around CM's program so that it can be something of higher value to the Oilers. I don't like the idea of one guy being solely responsible for fitness, especially when there has been debatable gains from it so far. I would hope that they have, or will get, other professionals (AT, PT, nutritionist, etc) to play devils advocate and ensure a personalized approach.
How do you prove it has debateable gains when it hasn't even been shown that it is any different than the other programs out there?

More flawed logic.

I think some of you need to take some psychology courses.

There are so many other variables that to assume that Moreau is the cause of the injuries defies logic.

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07-13-2008, 10:16 AM
  #71
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I agree with what you are saying, but hockey has more than physical element to it. Otherwise Marty Reasoner Reasoner would be Joe Sakic and Matt Greene would instantly turn into a Chris Pronger.
When the Oilers had star players in the line-up during the 2006 Cup run, they also looked physically dominant during many of the games (remember how they ran SJ off the ice). And I don't think it's coincidence.

I will once again have to bring in examples from personal experience. I have played on a number of good and VERY crappy soccer teams in my life. For the most part my conditioning was on about the same level every year (i.e. consistently higher than the team/league average). But when my team-mates were playing good and doing their jobs, it was easy enough for me to use my speed/strength/endurance and at times dominate at my position.

But when the whole team is in disarray, you are scrambling to close the gaps, you are running a bit harder than you would prefer, you get out of position, finally you suck with the rest of the team...

But I think most NHL calibre players do cross train during the summers... I kind of see the point that there are a few unmotivated players who benifit from being pushed during the summers in California, but it seems people think if Oilers aren't in Cali training with CM, that they're slacking...

But why is Gagner's off season training worse than CM?

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07-13-2008, 10:18 AM
  #72
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But I think most NHL calibre players do cross train during the summers... I kind of see the point that there are a few unmotivated players who benifit from being pushed during the summers in California, but it seems people think if Oilers aren't in Cali training with CM, that they're slacking...

But why is Gagner's off season training worse than CM?
Huh? Who has said that?

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07-13-2008, 10:20 AM
  #73
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There is maybe one injury I can think of that you can relate to training, and that's Moreau. The way he hurt himself leads to the question of whether it was because he did something to it while training.

The rest? I don't see how you can make a link.
I think that is debatable. What about Horcoff? Wouldnt a well designed program identify that he has extra mobility in his shoulder and then design a program to tighten it up?

And the rest... sure it is a bit more of a stretch, but guys get into the positions that Greene and Torres did all the time. Some get injured and some don't. We'll never know for instance whether they'd both have avoided injury if they'd spent their summer lifting 30% of their max while perched on a balance-board. Or maybe they did... again no way to know.

What we do know is that we have among the best ice in the league, we have a very experienced set of trainers led by Lowe, and yet we still have the most injuries in the league for two years running. Factor out Pisani and we are still up there.

That in itself doesn't prove anything, but I'd sure as heck start looking for ways to improve things.

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07-13-2008, 10:28 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
How do you prove it has debateable gains when it hasn't even been shown that it is any different than the other programs out there?

More flawed logic.

I think some of you need to take some psychology courses.

There are so many other variables that to assume that Moreau is the cause of the injuries defies logic.
Thank you... I have graduate level training psychology. I would invite you to take a course or two in linguistics. I have said now on several occasions that I am not trying to *prove* anything. I'm certainly not suggesting we can attribute causality (and how many times will I need to say that before you can read past your emotional haze and internalize that message?)

Anyway, how would one "prove debatable gains". In the absense of irrefutable evidence on either side of the argument they ARE by DEFINITION debatable.

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07-13-2008, 10:41 AM
  #75
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I think that is debatable. What about Horcoff? Wouldnt a well designed program identify that he has extra mobility in his shoulder and then design a program to tighten it up?

And the rest... sure it is a bit more of a stretch, but guys get into the positions that Greene and Torres did all the time. Some get injured and some don't. We'll never know for instance whether they'd both have avoided injury if they'd spent their summer lifting 30% of their max while perched on a balance-board. Or maybe they did... again no way to know.

What we do know is that we have among the best ice in the league, we have a very experienced set of trainers led by Lowe, and yet we still have the most injuries in the league for two years running. Factor out Pisani and we are still up there.

That in itself doesn't prove anything, but I'd sure as heck start looking for ways to improve things.
1. So every player that has had a shoulder injury in a high paced sport like hockey should have been able to have a program to tighten it up. Wow, a lot of trainers aren't doing a very good job! Can you tell me what "tightening program" they all should be using?

2. You are right, there is no proof but you are trying to tell me that you can tell from a video that the players spent the whole summer lifting 30% on a balance board? Or was that part of a bigger program? Were you there? You must have his training program for every player? That is good information why don't you post it?

3. The Oilers haven't had the best ice or even the top 5 for many years. So we can throw that one out the window.

4. Yes most of the training staff have worked with the Oilers for several years including Moreau which shows that the last two years are more likely coincidence than cause. Thanks for pointing that out!

In fact the only member of the training staff that has only been here only two years is Scott Hoyer. It must be his fault

SCOTT HOYER
Assistant Medical Trainer/Fitness Coordinator
Hoyer returns to the Oilers training staff for his second season in 2007-08, working closely with Head Medical Trainer, Ken Lowe to ensure that the Oilers are physically prepared for the rigors and challenges of the 82-game NHL season. Prior to joining the Oilers in 2006-07, the 41-year-old native or Regina, Saskatchewan spent six seasons with the Kelowna Rockets from 2000-01 to 2005-06. During his tenure with the Western Hockey League team, Hoyer was a member of the Rockets’ 2004 Memorial Cup championship team. ...more

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