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Old
07-13-2008, 11:07 AM
  #76
Julio18
 
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This all really simple.

Training = Performance

Performance = (strength + speed + agility + confidence + endurance + etc.) x (+/- 82 games)

Performance is synonymous with everything above ^, and the goal is to play 82 games season + the potential for the post season. If there is any plausible reason to suspect training method(s) for games lost ----> it MUST be examined and a different approach taken. IMO, less than a 62 games or 80% played per season is a mild failure.

We don't have to look any further than Ethan Moreau. He has subscribed to his brothers program the longest and has the most games logged on the IR. In E. Moreau's case there is without a doubt more to look into. That is a concern because many others joined CM's tailored programs for each individual. Ethan had at least a few years of a head start on the others, so can we expect other players to follow a similar pattern in given time?

It is plausible to look for comparable games lost in players trained by CM, and Oiler management better be following very closely. These are their highly paid assets and the way their players physically transform themselves should be of great concern - especially with guinea pig #1's results thus far.

Proving such a claim is next to impossible. There are too many variable ---> body types, positions played, type of game played, nature of injuries - the list goes on. With that being said, it is a simple as tracking games played/lost by CM's clients in comparison to years spent on his program. Those results will be a great start to identifying if there is in fact a trend here.

Where there is smoke there is fire folks, and Ethan was last seen streaking through the Oilers dressing room headed towards the water hose. On crutches of course.

FTR - I support CM and the Oilers training - they just need to be very careful and have third parties / competing trainers or Phd's give their opinions on his methods and results.

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07-13-2008, 11:19 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
1. So every player that has had a shoulder injury in a high paced sport like hockey should have been able to have a program to tighten it up. Wow, a lot of trainers aren't doing a very good job! Can you tell me what "tightening program" they all should be using?

2. You are right, there is no proof but you are trying to tell me that you can tell from a video that the players spent the whole summer lifting 30% on a balance board? Or was that part of a bigger program? Were you there? You must have his training program for every player? That is good information why don't you post it?

3. The Oilers haven't had the best ice or even the top 5 for many years. So we can throw that one out the window.

4. Yes most of the training staff have worked with the Oilers for several years including Moreau which shows that the last two years are more likely coincidence than cause. Thanks for pointing that out!

In fact the only member of the training staff that has only been here only two years is Scott Hoyer. It must be his fault

SCOTT HOYER
Assistant Medical Trainer/Fitness Coordinator
Hoyer returns to the Oilers training staff for his second season in 2007-08, working closely with Head Medical Trainer, Ken Lowe to ensure that the Oilers are physically prepared for the rigors and challenges of the 82-game NHL season. Prior to joining the Oilers in 2006-07, the 41-year-old native or Regina, Saskatchewan spent six seasons with the Kelowna Rockets from 2000-01 to 2005-06. During his tenure with the Western Hockey League team, Hoyer was a member of the Rockets’ 2004 Memorial Cup championship team. ...more
It is clear to me that someone has peeved you off in this thread, and that you are superimposing your angst on me.

I would invite you to re-read my posts and your responses to them if you wish to understand who is escalating this (including: questioning my education and mocking as is clearly evident in the above gem of a post). Very unmoderator like behaviour.

All the same, and to address your points:

1) You should pay attention and read this in context. Dawgbone said that Moreau's injury is the only one that may have been caused (or might have been prevented) by CM's program. I'm arguing that we can't say this with any definity. An argument can be made for Horcoff's shoulder. There is no way to prove or disprove anything on this point, but it is up for debate.
2) I didn't try to tell you any such thing. Re-read my post. The point is that there are things that can be done to reduce the frequency of joint/structural injuries (like training on a balance board). We have no idea whether this is part of the program or not... again, my point here was to bring up Greene and Torres' injuries. He suggested that these injuries could not have been impacted by training and I'm debating that they could be. This is very different than saying that the *were* impacted by training... I simply disagree that they can be dismissed from the discussion.
3) I think we can agree that it isn't *bad* ice? Would you agree that it would be a stretch to say poor ice quality is responsible?
4) Again, I've never said Moreau was a cause. You either have a reading comprehension problem, or you are looking for a fight.

Anyway, it is clear that there will be no discussion on this point... it seems that you'd decided some time ago (perhaps before I even started posting in this thread) that you were peeved at the suggestion that CM was at "fault" and you were going to "win" the argument, even if it means discrediting your fellow posters.

I'll repeat again, since it seems your judgement has been too obscured to notice it, that I am not attributing causality, blame, or ownership on CM, or any other single member of the staff. I am saying that the oilers have an injury problem, which has not been cured or reduced by CM's fitness programs. And while the prevalence of players using his program correlates with our increase in injuries, I agree it does not stand to reason, or to tests of logic that it is to definitively to blame. However there is a correlation to be explored and some thought is required to decide how to better serve the oiler athletes. It's too important to simply dismiss as "bad luck".

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07-13-2008, 11:33 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Julio18 View Post
This all really simple.

FTR - I support CM and the Oilers training - they just need to be very careful and have third parties / competing trainers or Phd's give their opinions on his methods and results.
I think your post, especially the quoted part aligns well with my attitude on this issue.

Even if we found that CM's methods did correlate with games lost, it wouldn't mean that they are useless or that they are to blame. As you say, there are too many factors. But it might suggest that in having our athletes focus on his one program we are missing the bigger picture. Figuring it out is unlikely to happen if we put blind faith in one trainer's program.

My attitude and personal experience is that an athlete, any athlete, needs to learn to listen to their own body first, and then to their trainer, md, at, pt, etc. I worry just a little that having all of the guys training in the same place, under the same guy puts a little too much peer and external influence to drown out the athletes own suspicions.

An alternative approach would be to have the guys all train together, but to hire 3-6 trainers all with slightly different philosophies and/or areas of expertise. This would allow our guys to pick trainers that align with what they feel their needs are, and to share their experience with their team-mates. That seems to me to be a better approach that would still allow for comraderie and teambuilding through the dog days of summer.

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07-13-2008, 11:41 AM
  #79
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I think the best way to go in terms of fitness and weight training is make it as hockey-related as possible.

Any leg/core exercises should be similar to motions made during skating, rather than the generic squatting and ab exercises. If their training program acts to get their body accustomed to a non-hockey type of motion, it reduces their flexibility and ability to have a full range of motion with more relevant movements.

It's like having a swimmer train with bicep curls and squats, rather than exercises more streamlined towards the kicking and arm movements of swimming. It causes rigidity, and they lose the ability to move as freely with their limb movements through the water. This loss of flexibility actually makes it so that the swimming motions put more wear-and-tear on joints and ligaments that have had their strength limited to the movements used in free-weight training.

It's a recent discovery in strength/fitness training, and it's why we've seen new technologies developed to help streamline the training process to whatever specific sports/activities the athletes are going to be performing eg) that skating machine Gagner is using in that video posted in the other thread

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07-13-2008, 11:55 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
I think your post, especially the quoted part aligns well with my attitude on this issue.

Even if we found that CM's methods did correlate with games lost, it wouldn't mean that they are useless or that they are to blame. As you say, there are too many factors. But it might suggest that in having our athletes focus on his one program we are missing the bigger picture. Figuring it out is unlikely to happen if we put blind faith in one trainer's program.
Given the degree of disagreement and varied approach and conjecture thats always existed in training methodology I think theres always some good sense in not having too many balls in one basket.

Quote:
My attitude and personal experience is that an athlete, any athlete, needs to learn to listen to their own body first, and then to their trainer, md, at, pt, etc. I worry just a little that having all of the guys training in the same place, under the same guy puts a little too much peer and external influence to drown out the athletes own suspicions.
The one size fits all training class is often not in everybodies best interests. There is the more than subtle group pressure aspect and depending on the specific regimen a tilt to a workout strategem that may isolate someones achilles heel as much as improve their health. The training industry of course ignores that things like jogging and impact aerobics to name a couple are not in the best interests of perhaps the majority of people. But of course the names and methods change enough to distance from the past and any adverse effects but with very little research of any kind thats longitudinal to back up a prescribed training methodology. I worry about an industry thats driven as much by late night infomercials as it is in kinesthetic science.

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An alternative approach would be to have the guys all train together, but to hire 3-6 trainers all with slightly different philosophies and/or areas of expertise. This would allow our guys to pick trainers that align with what they feel their needs are, and to share their experience with their team-mates. That seems to me to be a better approach that would still allow for comraderie and teambuilding through the dog days of summer.
Agree with this too. Its interesting that on the training video Horcoff at the start is saying "I have this specific training regimen offseason thats worked for me..." It sounds like he's asserting/defending his own methodology with that and I realize this is conjecture but why is he saying it?

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07-13-2008, 12:11 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Huh? Who has said that?
There was quite a lot people wanting Jacques and Pouliot, and the French players to be in California. It's cooled down a little, but IIRC, there was a couple of threads devoted to it last summer.

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07-13-2008, 12:27 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
My company started making making record profits since I was hired. So I must be responsible. This year will be the telling year.

Do you see the flaw in the above? It is not different than the flaw in your logic about Chad Moreau!
Break out the global temperature vs. pirates chart!

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07-13-2008, 12:29 PM
  #83
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Keep in mind everyone that Tiger was coming off of surgery before playing in the US Open so he wasn't 100%.
His knee held up enough for him to take a swing at hockey, though.

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07-13-2008, 12:56 PM
  #84
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Not saying overtraining caused the injuries. Taking a puck off the foot has nothing todo with how many bench presses you did the week before.

But if you do overtrain it could leave you more tired and more susceptible to injury. I've had a few times where I should have called it a session, but kept going. Then my coordination isn't quite there and I take a dumb step and next thing you know sprained ankle. The training itself didn't result in the injury, but it setup a situation where I was more likely to get hurt.

Just sayin.

I think for the most part it was all freak accidents. Maybe it could have been preventable, but who's to say.

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07-13-2008, 01:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
It is clear to me that someone has peeved you off in this thread, and that you are superimposing your angst on me.

I would invite you to re-read my posts and your responses to them if you wish to understand who is escalating this (including: questioning my education and mocking as is clearly evident in the above gem of a post). Very unmoderator like behaviour.

All the same, and to address your points:

1) You should pay attention and read this in context. Dawgbone said that Moreau's injury is the only one that may have been caused (or might have been prevented) by CM's program. I'm arguing that we can't say this with any definity. An argument can be made for Horcoff's shoulder. There is no way to prove or disprove anything on this point, but it is up for debate.
2) I didn't try to tell you any such thing. Re-read my post. The point is that there are things that can be done to reduce the frequency of joint/structural injuries (like training on a balance board). We have no idea whether this is part of the program or not... again, my point here was to bring up Greene and Torres' injuries. He suggested that these injuries could not have been impacted by training and I'm debating that they could be. This is very different than saying that the *were* impacted by training... I simply disagree that they can be dismissed from the discussion.
3) I think we can agree that it isn't *bad* ice? Would you agree that it would be a stretch to say poor ice quality is responsible?
4) Again, I've never said Moreau was a cause. You either have a reading comprehension problem, or you are looking for a fight.

Anyway, it is clear that there will be no discussion on this point... it seems that you'd decided some time ago (perhaps before I even started posting in this thread) that you were peeved at the suggestion that CM was at "fault" and you were going to "win" the argument, even if it means discrediting your fellow posters.

I'll repeat again, since it seems your judgement has been too obscured to notice it, that I am not attributing causality, blame, or ownership on CM, or any other single member of the staff. I am saying that the oilers have an injury problem, which has not been cured or reduced by CM's fitness programs. And while the prevalence of players using his program correlates with our increase in injuries, I agree it does not stand to reason, or to tests of logic that it is to definitively to blame. However there is a correlation to be explored and some thought is required to decide how to better serve the oiler athletes. It's too important to simply dismiss as "bad luck".
If you don't like it.

Find the evidence!

What evidence do you actually have?

Show me one piece that I can't attack with at least four other variables!

Show me the causation!

Frankly you have no evidence and haven't come up with a logical conclusion.


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07-13-2008, 01:07 PM
  #86
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There is no reason to think that any of the injuries the team has sustained in the last couple years as anything at all to do with their training programs. Hockey is a very physical sport and sometimes things just go that way for no reason at all, just blind dumb luck in a bad way.

I find it hard to believe that a group of professional athletes surrounded by many former athletes would continue to use any kind of training that might be suspect in injuries that have occured. They would all had to be suffering from serious denial. There is also the fact that Chad Moreau had been working with these players long before our injury bug hit, it's just coincidence in my opinion.

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07-13-2008, 01:23 PM
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Time to start my own witchhunt.

Moreau has been with many of the players training for several seasons.

Scott Hoyer has only been with the team for two years and his job is to ensure that the team was ready for the rigors of the NHL season.

He obviously hasn't done so.

It is not Chad Moreau's fault, it is Scott Hoyers!

I have no evidence to back up my claim but I obviously don't need any, all I need is to have one correlation and it is enough!

He should be fired!


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07-14-2008, 10:57 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Time to start my own witchhunt.

Moreau has been with many of the players training for several seasons.

Scott Hoyer has only been with the team for two years and his job is to ensure that the team was ready for the rigors of the NHL season.

He obviously hasn't done so.

It is not Chad Moreau's fault, it is Scott Hoyers!

I have no evidence to back up my claim but I obviously don't need any, all I need is to have one correlation and it is enough!

He should be fired!
It's called an opinion. You have yours I have mine. It is my OPINION that since Chad Moreau has been around our team has had more man games lost to injury than we ever have before.

p.s - i'm still waiting for you to provide link to exactly when CM started with the Oilers. Dates please. Thanks.

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07-14-2008, 11:10 AM
  #89
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p.s - i'm still waiting for you to provide link to exactly when CM started with the Oilers. Dates please. Thanks.
Based on his bio at the Oilers' site, which appears to be a year old if it matches the rest of the coaching staff, he is now heading into his 3rd year as the Oilers' Strength and Conditioning Assistant.

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07-14-2008, 11:14 AM
  #90
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^ And coaching staff was raving about how good of condition E. Moreau was coming into camp around that time 3 years ago.

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07-14-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
I'll repeat again, since it seems your judgement has been too obscured to notice it, that I am not attributing causality, blame, or ownership on CM, or any other single member of the staff. I am saying that the oilers have an injury problem, which has not been cured or reduced by CM's fitness programs. And while the prevalence of players using his program correlates with our increase in injuries, I agree it does not stand to reason, or to tests of logic that it is to definitively to blame. However there is a correlation to be explored and some thought is required to decide how to better serve the oiler athletes. It's too important to simply dismiss as "bad luck".
Just a note: two data points (two years of above average man-games lost to injury) is not enough to show a statistically meaningful correlation (let alone a causal link).

A player-by-player analysis of training methods vs. injuries might be sufficient to show a statistically meaningful link, but so far nobody has bothered to do this, instead relying on a measly 2 data points as the basis for correlation.

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07-14-2008, 11:44 AM
  #92
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JANUARY 16, 2005
"Duke, 52, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 1988. Four years ago, the cancer spread to his liver. Last month, just before Christmas, Duke was one of six Oilers employees told he'd be laid off Feb. 1."


OCTOBER 11, 2005
"We found out why strength and conditioning coach Daryl Duke was "dismissed of his duties" in September: in order to hire Ethan Moreau's brother Chad. Judging by the number of letters after his name, he certainly seems qualified. Ethan's insane conditioning probably didn't hurt either."
http://battleofalberta.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html

2004 MAN GAMES LOST = 114 (as of Feb.17/2004
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=53064
2005 - 2006 MAN GAMES LOST = 134
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/2...s-lost-to.html
2006 - 2007 MAN GAMES LOST = 286
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app?gameN...8&service=page
2007 - 2008 MAN GAMES LOST = 291
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/o...to-injury.html

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07-14-2008, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortboy View Post
JANUARY 16, 2005
"Duke, 52, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 1988. Four years ago, the cancer spread to his liver. Last month, just before Christmas, Duke was one of six Oilers employees told he'd be laid off Feb. 1."


OCTOBER 11, 2005
"We found out why strength and conditioning coach Daryl Duke was "dismissed of his duties" in September: in order to hire Ethan Moreau's brother Chad. Judging by the number of letters after his name, he certainly seems qualified. Ethan's insane conditioning probably didn't hurt either."
http://battleofalberta.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html

2004 MAN GAMES LOST = 114 (as of Feb.17/2004
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=53064
2005 - 2006 MAN GAMES LOST = 134
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/2...s-lost-to.html
2006 - 2007 MAN GAMES LOST = 286
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app?gameN...8&service=page
2007 - 2008 MAN GAMES LOST = 291
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/o...to-injury.html
for some reason the first link wouldn't work for the first quote...i'm tryin again here http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...00332-sun.html

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07-14-2008, 11:48 AM
  #94
Jimmi McJenkins
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As HA101 has said, no one has proved any of this in relation to the rest of the league.

Just because you want their to be a correlation, doesn't mean there is actually one there.

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07-14-2008, 11:53 AM
  #95
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certainly there is enough information to form an opinion.

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07-14-2008, 11:56 AM
  #96
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Nice work Fortboy!

Wow - doubled in '06 to '07 and then has maintained at a staggering 280+.

Maybe the Oilers will get some really high quality multi-vitamin tablets from the Katz camp, and we can get back into the 130 games lost range.

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07-14-2008, 11:59 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortboy View Post
JANUARY 16, 2005
"Duke, 52, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 1988. Four years ago, the cancer spread to his liver. Last month, just before Christmas, Duke was one of six Oilers employees told he'd be laid off Feb. 1."


OCTOBER 11, 2005
"We found out why strength and conditioning coach Daryl Duke was "dismissed of his duties" in September: in order to hire Ethan Moreau's brother Chad. Judging by the number of letters after his name, he certainly seems qualified. Ethan's insane conditioning probably didn't hurt either."
http://battleofalberta.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html

2004 MAN GAMES LOST = 114 (as of Feb.17/2004
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=53064
2005 - 2006 MAN GAMES LOST = 134
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/2...s-lost-to.html
2006 - 2007 MAN GAMES LOST = 286
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app?gameN...8&service=page
2007 - 2008 MAN GAMES LOST = 291
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/o...to-injury.html

Very good post! It's nice to finally see some facts in this thread. IMO saying that it is impossible that there is a correlation between C Moreaus training and the recent injury problems is as ridiculous as saying that there is definantly a correlation.

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07-14-2008, 12:05 PM
  #98
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Or it's because Laraque left after 05-06.

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07-14-2008, 12:07 PM
  #99
Jimmi McJenkins
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Or it's because Laraque left after 05-06.
I heard it was Hurricane Katrina related. Some kind of crazy blow back.

Then again it might be the style of play that Mac-T employs or something else. Maybe it was the EIG trying to save money via insurance claims.

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07-14-2008, 12:10 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortboy View Post
JANUARY 16, 2005
"Duke, 52, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 1988. Four years ago, the cancer spread to his liver. Last month, just before Christmas, Duke was one of six Oilers employees told he'd be laid off Feb. 1."


OCTOBER 11, 2005
"We found out why strength and conditioning coach Daryl Duke was "dismissed of his duties" in September: in order to hire Ethan Moreau's brother Chad. Judging by the number of letters after his name, he certainly seems qualified. Ethan's insane conditioning probably didn't hurt either."
http://battleofalberta.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html

2004 MAN GAMES LOST = 114 (as of Feb.17/2004
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=53064
2005 - 2006 MAN GAMES LOST = 134
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/2...s-lost-to.html
2006 - 2007 MAN GAMES LOST = 286
http://oilers.nhl.com/team/app?gameN...8&service=page
2007 - 2008 MAN GAMES LOST = 291
http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/o...to-injury.html
# of Facebook users in 2004: 1M
2005: 5.5M
2006: 12M
2007: 50M

I think there's a correlation there. The Oilers should do whatever they can to shut down Facebook -- there must be some reason for that!

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