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Old
07-14-2008, 12:14 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andersonhof View Post
Very good post! It's nice to finally see some facts in this thread. IMO saying that it is impossible that there is a correlation between C Moreaus training and the recent injury problems is as ridiculous as saying that there is definantly a correlation.
No one is saying it is impossible that there is a correlation. It's hard to prove a negative like that.

What ha101 is asking for is some actual meaningful statistical link to prove that Chad Moreau is causing injuries.

Meanwhile, the only "fact" so far is the # of man-games lost, which on its own proves absolutely nothing.

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07-14-2008, 12:16 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
No one is saying it is impossible that there is a correlation. It's hard to prove a negative like that.

What ha101 is asking for is some actual meaningful statistical link to prove that Chad Moreau is causing injuries.

Meanwhile, the only "fact" so far is the # of man-games lost, which on its own proves absolutely nothing.
That's not true, if proves players were hurt for extended periods

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07-14-2008, 12:18 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
That's not true, if proves players were hurt for extended periods
Touché

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07-14-2008, 12:23 PM
  #104
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We all know that this would be pretty difficult to substantiate as there are far too many attributes that contribute - both team and individual.

But at this point we can't ignore what is laid out for us in black and white.

- The games lost numbers the previous training / conditioning personnel had in their final two years
- When C. Moreau joined the Oilers organization
- Games lost - double and maintain in a 3 year span.
- E. Moreau is leading the pack in the column and had a head start on the rest of our players under C. Moreau's program(s).

If this season shapes up to be in the 285 - 300 range (factoring in exOilers Stoll, Torres etc.), there is a definite reason to make a change. This is a make or break year for Dr. C. Moreau's fitness cult.

On the plus side, the Oiler juniors got fast tracked in the skill department and development side. And it might have taken us another year to send Torres packing, when IMO he was ready for new scenery change long ago.

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07-14-2008, 12:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Julio18 View Post
We all know that this would be pretty difficult to substantiate as there are far too many attributes that contribute - both team and individual.

But at this point we can't ignore what is laid out for us in black and white.

- The games lost numbers the previous training / conditioning personnel had in their final two years
- When C. Moreau joined the Oilers organization
- Games lost - double and maintain in a 3 year span.
- E. Moreau is leading the pack in the column and had a head start on the rest of our players under C. Moreau's program(s).

If this season shapes up to be in the 285 - 300 range (factoring in exOilers Stoll, Torres etc.), there is a definite reason to make a change. This is a make or break year for Dr. C. Moreau's fitness cult.

On the plus side, the Oiler juniors got fast tracked in the skill department and development side. And it might have taken us another year to send Torres packing, when IMO he was ready for new scenery change long ago.
How does that explain Matt Greene, Ethan Moreau (ankle/foot), Jarret Stoll, etc?

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07-14-2008, 12:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
No one is saying it is impossible that there is a correlation. It's hard to prove a negative like that.

What ha101 is asking for is some actual meaningful statistical link to prove that Chad Moreau is causing injuries.

Meanwhile, the only "fact" so far is the # of man-games lost, which on its own proves absolutely nothing.
That's true. I don't know if Moreau is causing the injuries or not. None of us are in there during the training and we are all just making assumptions. Who knows, maybe part of his training regime included smacking Torres in the knee with a bat and that caused his injury.

The only thing that bothers me with this thread is the certainty of some posters that Moreau is not responsible for the injuries. It is possible that there is something wrong with his training regime (see extreme bat example), and that has lead to injuries. I seem to remember the Washington Capitals firing there entire training staff after a season where they lost a record amount of man games. It is not unheard of to have training that leads to adverse affects (hence, the OP's original example and the Capitals one). To say that Moreau's training is 100 percent good is not a fact - we don't know what goes on. It could be bad and that must be considered. Is there evidence out there that Moreau's training is 100 percent good? Or is that an assumption?

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07-14-2008, 12:37 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio18 View Post
If this season shapes up to be in the 285 - 300 range (factoring in exOilers Stoll, Torres etc.), there is a definite reason to make a change. This is a make or break year for Dr. C. Moreau's fitness cult.
So many things to say just from one paragraph.

First, he's not a doctor.

Second, calling it a cult belies your own bias here.

Third, if we have 50 man-games lost due to injury, does that "prove" all this nonsense wrong? What about 100? 150? 200? 250?

One thing I should make clear: yes, there may be a connection between Chad Moreau and injuries, and if someone could prove it, I wouldn't be shocked out of my gourd. But I've seen nothing substantive to prove that yet, only the makings of an "escape goat".

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07-14-2008, 12:42 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by andersonhof View Post
That's true. I don't know if Moreau is causing the injuries or not.
My memory may be hazy, but didn't Moreau get his skate stuck in the boards when he re-injured himself? He may be "responsible", as it were, for having his foot there in the first place, but it all sounded more like a freak accident at the time.

Quote:
To say that Moreau's training is 100 percent good is not a fact - we don't know what goes on.
I missed the post where someone said "Chad Moreau's training is 100 percent good". I don't even know what that means.

Quote:
It could be bad and that must be considered.
Absolutely. With actual evidence.

Quote:
Is there evidence out there that Moreau's training is 100 percent good? Or is that an assumption?
You'll have to define what you're talking about first.

But I have a gut feeling that there's no such thing as any training program that will be universally defined as "100 percent good".

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07-14-2008, 12:48 PM
  #109
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Correlation or not, I think some of the injuries are simply impossible to blame on CM--Pisani's ilness this season, a string of concussions last year (Stoll, Pisani, Roy, Gilbert have all been victims). Unless we really believe that CM is swinging the bat at players' heads...


Also, except for Moreau, players who got injured this year played an entire season last year--Horcoff, Torres, Greene.

Staios was nursing an injury last season, but was an iron man this year. To me this does not indicate there is any problem with the training regimen.

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07-14-2008, 01:59 PM
  #110
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I remember mentioning in an end-of-year thread that we needed to look into WHY we're getting so many injuries. It would have been money well spent in my opinion. I'm not sure how it would be done, but that's for the experts, i'm quite sure it'd be possible. Commission a study at U of A or something like that, i'm sure someone would be interested in doing this research.

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07-14-2008, 02:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
How does that explain Matt Greene, Ethan Moreau (ankle/foot), Jarret Stoll, etc?
I have no intent in drawing a parallel that links injuries and CM. My post breaks down games lost that have occurred since CM took over, and more specifically, it narrows in on his brothers results as an advocate of his program. There is no denying that injuries are WAY up - the numbers don't lie.

I offer no speculation to the injuries of the players you mentioned. Although it will be interesting to see how many lost games they chalk up (if any). With the emergence of Hockey specific training specialists, it shouldn't be hard for a third party investigative report that tracks trainers, player and games lost.

Coincidence or not, it's not good for the team. Our numbers can't continue like this for a third season because the excuses are getting old. If the same results happen time and time again, it makes sense to change some part of the equation. Sometimes better results are attained for unknown reasons.

We sat 25th in the league with 291 games lost - the average is 196.

http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/o...to-injury.html


Last edited by Julio18: 07-14-2008 at 03:13 PM.
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07-14-2008, 02:51 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
My memory may be hazy, but didn't Moreau get his skate stuck in the boards when he re-injured himself? He may be "responsible", as it were, for having his foot there in the first place, but it all sounded more like a freak accident at the time.



I missed the post where someone said "Chad Moreau's training is 100 percent good". I don't even know what that means.



Absolutely. With actual evidence.



You'll have to define what you're talking about first.

But I have a gut feeling that there's no such thing as any training program that will be universally defined as "100 percent good".
I was just using the 100 percent as an extreme example. I highly doubt that there is such a thing as a training program that is 100 percent good, but that is kinda my point. Some people on here seem to have troubles admitting that it is possible that Moreau's training program might be bad, it might be - we don't know because we are not there.

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07-14-2008, 03:33 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andersonhof View Post
I was just using the 100 percent as an extreme example. I highly doubt that there is such a thing as a training program that is 100 percent good, but that is kinda my point. Some people on here seem to have troubles admitting that it is possible that Moreau's training program might be bad, it might be - we don't know because we are not there.

a lot of talk on these boards is so amateurish it's not even funny.
e.g. many people talk about "over-training", but does everyone understand what "over-training" or "under-performance syndrom" actually is?

Loading your body with plyometric exercises does not necessarily lead to over-training, if one follows an adequate nutrition and rest regimen (appropriate training cycle).

"Overtraining" sets in when one continues to put excessive stress on insufficiently rested body. It is ALWAYS accompanied by a drop in muscle strength and overall fitness level. This is when one is particularly vulnerable to injury.



But THERE IS SIMPLY NO WAY players would not know if they were experiencing "under-performance syndrom" at the time of injury. And if it is indeed the case, then yes, Oilers should look into CM's fitness program. But if say Horcoff was in the shape of his life when he got hurt (which seems like he indeed was), than all this talk about "over-training" as a cause of his injury is just a load of crock.

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07-14-2008, 05:00 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
a lot of talk on these boards is so amateurish it's not even funny.
e.g. many people talk about "over-training", but does everyone understand what "over-training" or "under-performance syndrom" actually is?

Loading your body with plyometric exercises does not necessarily lead to over-training, if one follows an adequate nutrition and rest regimen (appropriate training cycle).

"Overtraining" sets in when one continues to put excessive stress on insufficiently rested body. It is ALWAYS accompanied by a drop in muscle strength and overall fitness level. This is when one is particularly vulnerable to injury.



But THERE IS SIMPLY NO WAY players would not know if they were experiencing "under-performance syndrom" at the time of injury. And if it is indeed the case, then yes, Oilers should look into CM's fitness program. But if say Horcoff was in the shape of his life when he got hurt (which seems like he indeed was), than all this talk about "over-training" as a cause of his injury is just a load of crock.
I completely agree with everything you are saying! Over training is such a broad term and it actually dosn't make a lot of sense. I am sure very few of us know what "over training" is and we certaintly don't know what Moreau is doing with the players in Cali. We also don't know how each of the players reacts to different types of training and how well they know their bodies - therefore, it is hard to speculate on what over training would be for them. However, without knowing what goes on, or anything about the players themselves, how can you people make statements on what lead to Horc's injury? There is a part in the posted video where Horc is talking to Chad about his past training program - perhaps the differences in what he did in the past and what Chad had him do where too great and that hurt him. Maybe, it wasn't just a freak accident. Maybe - thats all I'm saying is maybe. But to present assumptions as fact either way seems ridiculous.

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07-14-2008, 05:39 PM
  #115
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This thread is making me feel that statistics should be covered more during primary and/or secondary schooling.

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07-14-2008, 07:41 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
This thread is making me feel that statistics should be covered more during primary and/or secondary schooling.
To that we should add increased comprehension as the thread was only ever started as a question and to have debate and consider thoughts and opinions.

Read the OP again.

The many people that have come into the thread fairly shrieking "prove it, wheres the facts?" and ridiculing the premise from the outset are imo those that have not responded fairly to the thread as stated and intended by the op.

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07-14-2008, 07:54 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
To that we should add increased comprehension as the thread was only ever started as a question and to have debate and consider thoughts and opinions.

Read the OP again.

The many people that have come into the thread fairly shrieking "prove it, wheres the facts?" and ridiculing the premise from the outset are imo those that have not responded fairly to the thread as stated and intended by the op.
The original question -- is Chad Moreau's training the cause of our injury problems for the last 2 years? -- is inherently debatable, and quantifiable.

This is not a discussion about philosophy here.

So to say something akin to "Whoa, it's just an opinion" seems to be surrendering that original question, leaving the thread DOA.

(P.S. If everything that's an "opinion" is above dissection from a logical standpoint, then why isn't the counter-opinion, "There is no evidence that Chad Moreau's training program is the cause of our injury problems for the last 2 years", free from your own criticism? It's a sticky tar pit you're jumping into.)

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07-14-2008, 07:58 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
The original question -- is Chad Moreau's training the cause of our injury problems for the last 2 years? -- is inherently debatable, and quantifiable.

This is not a discussion about philosophy here.

So to say something akin to "Whoa, it's just an opinion" seems to be surrendering that original question, leaving the thread DOA.

(P.S. If everything that's an "opinion" is above dissection from a logical standpoint, then why isn't the counter-opinion, "There is no evidence that Chad Moreau's training program is the cause of our injury problems for the last 2 years", free from your own criticism? It's a sticky tar pit you're jumping into.)
Its possible to discuss an issue using conjecture and stating that it is opinion and just interested in others thoughts..as the OP has done.

Without burden of proof.

It was an opinion based discussion. It wasn't an impeachment hearing.

Proof doesn't have to apply to every thread and no it doesn't reduce the thread to DOA as obviously the responses indicate.

I don't mind dissection or dissenting opinion(it isn't my thread I have no vested interest) but as its been played here is the counterargument from some has basically gone:

"Prove it, yeah ya got nothing"

I don't think thats contributed much to the thead. Its not a conceptual counterpoint or an argument for that matter.

ps theres no freaking way this issue is quantifiable. Design the test parameters that eliminate all other variables.

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07-15-2008, 12:02 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
It was an opinion based discussion. It wasn't an impeachment hearing.
I would say that if one doesn't want to have an opinion examined or challenged, the last place to voice that opinion is on teh Internets.

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07-15-2008, 02:06 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
To that we should add increased comprehension as the thread was only ever started as a question and to have debate and consider thoughts and opinions.

Read the OP again.

The many people that have come into the thread fairly shrieking "prove it, wheres the facts?" and ridiculing the premise from the outset are imo those that have not responded fairly to the thread as stated and intended by the op.
My comments weren't directed at the OP, but rather the thread.

Read my post again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu
This thread is making me feel that statistics should be covered more during primary and/or secondary schooling.
This thread contains much more than the original post.


Last edited by alanschu: 07-15-2008 at 02:44 PM. Reason: My bad
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07-15-2008, 02:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
My comments weren't directed at the OP, but rather the thread.

Read my post again:



This thread contains much more than your original post.
It wasn't my original post. It isn't a thread I started.

I'm merely defending the OP and those that sought to have this discussion.

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07-15-2008, 02:25 PM
  #122
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Whoops my bad, but my point still stands.

Talking about how my post doesn't reflect what the OP said in his, doesn't stop the fact that people in this thread are doing some bizarre stuff with their statistical conclusions.

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07-15-2008, 02:35 PM
  #123
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Whoops my bad, but my point still stands.

Talking about how my post doesn't reflect what the OP said in his, doesn't stop the fact that people in this thread are doing some bizarre stuff with their statistical conclusions.
I don't disagree.

I wasn't calling out your post but merely adding to it.

I think comprehension in the thread has been lacking as well.

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07-15-2008, 04:29 PM
  #124
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It wasn't my original post. It isn't a thread I started.

I'm merely defending the OP and those that sought to have this discussion.

Well said and it's appreciated.

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07-16-2008, 03:20 AM
  #125
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I believe there is some flaws with the summer training regimes but I must admit that there has to be more to it than that. For example from what I understand Horcoff doesn't train with C Moreau, instead he works with the same personal trainer used by Chris Chelios and while I fully agree with his methods, Horcoff still got hurt bad.

At the same time there seems to be this assumption going on that if you over train and put to much stress/strain on your body that only your muscles can be affected. Somehow joints are apparently immune and can't be affected and that they certainly can't be weakened or made more susceptible in the event of falls or contact........

I'd say the team should definitely re-examine their approach to not only off-season training but also conditioning throughout the season and game preparation.

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