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Should we trade for JayBo?

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Old
07-25-2008, 10:04 AM
  #101
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And you're calling me a Nostradamus when you're making the outlandish prediction that he will go to Wang's team on some "feeling"... whatever, lets move on.

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07-25-2008, 10:07 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
And you're calling me a Nostradamus when you're making the outlandish prediction that he will go to Wang's team on some "feeling"... whatever, lets move on.
Like I said, it's not a prediction, it's a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you think Bouwmeester is just as good as Markov, you have obviously not seen much of either one of them. JB has the potential to be as good as Markov one day, right now there is a huge difference. JB is nowhere close on the offensive side.
I wouldn't say nowhere close. JayBo doesn't have the talent around him that Markov does. He's not as good of a PP QB, but he's better than a lot of teams QBs that's for sure.


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07-25-2008, 10:16 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
I wouldn't say nowhere close. JayBo doesn't have the talent around him that Markov does. He's not as good of a PP QB, but he's better than a lot of teams QBs that's for sure.
It's not just about being a PP QB...Markov is much better in the transition game and reading the play defensively. JB has great physical tools(size shot and skating) but his hockey sense has been questioned, that's what's holding him back. Markov's oiutlet passes ared as good as anybody in the NHL.

It's like the difference between Dandenault and Gorges...Dandy is a better skater but Gorges reads the play much better, that's why he was a #5 d-man and Dandy was a depth forward.

Edit. Another thing that nobody has brought up is that JB had a run in with the law which was alcohol related. That could scare away teams from giving him a long term deal.

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07-25-2008, 12:58 PM
  #104
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Question: Let's say we have to deal Komisarek 'cause he keeps rejecting our offers and don't want anything to do with us.....do you really want him to be traded to an Eastern team? I would definatley start looking out West first and only if I have an incredible overpayment offer, I would consider the East.....but even there, I wouldn't even consider the NorthEast.....

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07-25-2008, 01:00 PM
  #105
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The answer is still nope, even though his trade value is lessened by these latest developments.

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07-25-2008, 01:07 PM
  #106
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Yeah trade Komi for a pending UFA

Nice one

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07-25-2008, 04:22 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
So this guy has filed for arbitration and would be a UFA next year. Should we make an offer for him?

Imo the deal would have to start with Komi.
Sure, why not. Montréal is a magnet for so many elite free agents that Gainey has to chase them away with a broom.

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07-25-2008, 05:54 PM
  #108
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I'd think that if you tried to rate all the league's d men, he'd be anywhere between 20-30, so yeah, he's what you say he is. I'm talking about his offense though, guys with wheels like his get classified as something they aren't.

I think he's much better defensively than described here, but nowhere near as good offensively.

I'd ask a lot of questions and do some due diligence before any deals though, just to make sure his head's set on his career.
I'd rank Bouwmeester much closer to the top-10 myself. Not that it matters, but just an exercise for entertainment (and futility..), where would you rank Bouwmeester in this group?

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Zubov,
Chara, Markov, Kaberle, Gonchar, Phaneuf, Rafalski, Timonen, Campbell, Jovanovski,
Komisarek, Weber, Whitney, Phillips, Burns, Regehr, Visnovsky, Green, Boyle

That's 22 defensemen.

Personally, I put him around Rafalski/Timonen. Not as smart as those two, but his athleticism compensates for it. And Rafalski/Timonen would rank around 10th/11th on my list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I don't disagree with what you are saying...but you are trading 3 pretty valuable assets for a guy who is a UFA in 11 months. That's as much or more than Pittsburgh paid for Hossa who is already in his prime as established as a perennial all star(what Bouwmeester COULD be).

As somebody mentionned earlier...JB has not yet shown he could be a #1 d-0man like Markov in terms of running a PP and being great in the transition game. He has excellent size and tools, but his hockey sense is questionable.
Markov has yet to prove he's a #1 defenseman down the stretch & in the playoffs. He's been an uncriticized disappointment in two gos as the #1 guy.

Bouwmeester doesn't need to be the #1. He doesn't need to control the transition game. He's not an excelletn offensive defenseman, and that isn't the point in bringing him here: the ponit is that his physical tools and his ability in his own end are vastly superior to the majority of NHL defensemen. He is a proven #1 guy and top-15 defenseman in the league. He is also very young. Put in a role where he'd be among one of the best top-4s in the league and his unique abilities would be able to thrive.

Note: I would do this deal on the condition that Shabutie outlined earlier; that Gainey was able to talk to Bouwmeester's agent ahead of time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It sounds good in principle...but unless he has Mr.Magoo as an agent, he knows he can get around 6 mil or more on the UFA market next summer. He has no loyalty to the Habs(unlike Komi), plus there is risk signing him to a long term big money deal. He is "good/above average" right now, there is no guarantee that he'll get better. I'd be pissed if theyu got him and his development stalled like in Florida and we lost Higgins or S.Kostystyn in 2-3 years because of the cap hit taken by JB.
I don't think Montreal would have problems locking up Bouwmeester at $6-6.5m long-term. I also don't believe that to be a risky deal.

He is not a 'good/above average' defenseman. He's top-15--at least top-20 in the league right now. I don't think Montreal would be disappointed by Bouwmeester should he merely remain as he is right now (i.e. stalled development).

Further, Higgins will not be a problem to lock up. Kostitsyn will be entering UFA age by the time Hamrlik's coming off the books. Can't avoid deals because of what might happen in 3-4 years time anyway.

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07-25-2008, 08:01 PM
  #109
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jaybo is overrated IMO

good d-men, but regress in production the last 2 season, especially last season... went from a +23 to a -5 with the same team...

would never move komi for him...

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07-25-2008, 08:30 PM
  #110
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No thanks!

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07-25-2008, 08:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TSV View Post
jaybo is overrated IMO

good d-men, but regress in production the last 2 season, especially last season... went from a +23 to a -5 with the same team...

would never move komi for him...
He might be a little overrated, but don't judge him on his +/- from last year. That team was brutal and everyone had a piss poor rating.

He's a pretty solid two-way d-man who will get 40+ points and can play 25+ minutes per game. I wouldn't give up Komi for him, but I'd love to have him on the Habs.

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Old
07-25-2008, 09:59 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I'd rank Bouwmeester much closer to the top-10 myself. Not that it matters, but just an exercise for entertainment (and futility..), where would you rank Bouwmeester in this group?

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Zubov,
Chara, Markov, Kaberle, Gonchar, Phaneuf, Rafalski, Timonen, Campbell, Jovanovski,
Komisarek, Weber, Whitney, Phillips, Burns, Regehr, Visnovsky, Green, Boyle

That's 22 defensemen.

Personally, I put him around Rafalski/Timonen. Not as smart as those two, but his athleticism compensates for it. And Rafalski/Timonen would rank around 10th/11th on my list.



y.
I guess I'd have him pretty well where you do mow that I'm looking at names. Overall, I'd like to look at all the names in the league and see where I would put him, but I keep wondering if the J Bo, I picture being mobile at the blueline, angling guys out of the play, is really the guy who played last season.

The +- isn't a make or break stat, but it's a warning sign, and I wonder if he's still the player I thought he was. I have no problem ranking him highly, my issue is more that you have to understand that he's more of a defensive than offensive guy.

I'm not sure that spending what he'd cost makes sense when weighed against the quality of player we hope is coming thru the pipeline. It seems like a lot of cash would be tied up at the blueline, but hasn't Holland said that his formula is to spend on defense ?

I'd like to hear what someone who sees him game in game out has to say.

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07-26-2008, 02:55 AM
  #113
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Bouw is good. I certainly wouldn't put him near the top 10, but closer to the 30.
My issue is that I'm not willing to pay him. Even if we come up with a reasonable package that we can live with having traded away, I don't much feel like paying him $6.5M or $7M per season. Especially if none of Komisarek, Hamrlik or Markov is on the way back. That'd be over $22M just for our top 4 D. I'd almost certainly rather keep the trade package.

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07-26-2008, 06:16 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I'd rank Bouwmeester much closer to the top-10 myself. Not that it matters, but just an exercise for entertainment (and futility..), where would you rank Bouwmeester in this group?

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Zubov,
Chara, Markov, Kaberle, Gonchar, Phaneuf, Rafalski, Timonen, Campbell, Jovanovski,
Komisarek, Weber, Whitney, Phillips, Burns, Regehr, Visnovsky, Green, Boyle

That's 22 defensemen.

Personally, I put him around Rafalski/Timonen. Not as smart as those two, but his athleticism compensates for it. And Rafalski/Timonen would rank around 10th/11th on my list.



Markov has yet to prove he's a #1 defenseman down the stretch & in the playoffs. He's been an uncriticized disappointment in two gos as the #1 guy.

Bouwmeester doesn't need to be the #1. He doesn't need to control the transition game. He's not an excelletn offensive defenseman, and that isn't the point in bringing him here: the ponit is that his physical tools and his ability in his own end are vastly superior to the majority of NHL defensemen. He is a proven #1 guy and top-15 defenseman in the league. He is also very young. Put in a role where he'd be among one of the best top-4s in the league and his unique abilities would be able to thrive.

Note: I would do this deal on the condition that Shabutie outlined earlier; that Gainey was able to talk to Bouwmeester's agent ahead of time.





I don't think Montreal would have problems locking up Bouwmeester at $6-6.5m long-term. I also don't believe that to be a risky deal.

He is not a 'good/above average' defenseman. He's top-15--at least top-20 in the league right now. I don't think Montreal would be disappointed by Bouwmeester should he merely remain as he is right now (i.e. stalled development).

Further, Higgins will not be a problem to lock up. Kostitsyn will be entering UFA age by the time Hamrlik's coming off the books. Can't avoid deals because of what might happen in 3-4 years time anyway.

Markov played like a #1 all of last year. His skating wasn't the same after he hurt his leg but he showed a lot of guts playing anyways and still played big minutes.

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07-26-2008, 09:07 AM
  #115
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Jaybo is worth 6 years 40 mil

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07-26-2008, 10:28 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by The Price is Right View Post
Jaybo is worth 6 years 40 mil
Like I said, we'd only make the deal if Gainey was allowed to speak with JayBo's agent and work out a deal before hand.

Obviously we don't want to trade assets for someone who's likely going to jet next season (unless of course Gainey is serious on bringing the cup to montreal this season).

Then you trade players that have good potential but wouldn't completely hurt our team if dealt. Guys like Latendresse, Subban, White, maybe Chipchura (though I would like to keep him). If need be, you add our top-rated prospect McDonagh.

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07-26-2008, 10:29 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Bouw is good. I certainly wouldn't put him near the top 10, but closer to the 30.
My issue is that I'm not willing to pay him. Even if we come up with a reasonable package that we can live with having traded away, I don't much feel like paying him $6.5M or $7M per season. Especially if none of Komisarek, Hamrlik or Markov is on the way back. That'd be over $22M just for our top 4 D. I'd almost certainly rather keep the trade package.
yes indeed. 6-7m for a top 30 dmen in the league is c-r-a-z-y. but that's what he's going to get on the market...

Id rather keep Obyrne or add valetenko, fisher... ect... with an entry contract than having an overated player at 7m.

jaybo just isn't on my shortlist. And komi is more 'likely' to sign here than he is... we have so little to win, so much to lose.

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07-26-2008, 10:33 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great View Post
yes indeed. 6-7m for a top 30 dmen in the league is c-r-a-z-y. but that's what he's going to get on the market...

Id rather keep Obyrne or add valetenko, fisher... ect... with an entry contract than having an overated player at 7m.

jaybo just isn't on my shortlist. And komi is more 'likely' to sign here than he is... we have so little to win, so much to lose.
JayBo is definitely top 15. Name me 15 defememan that are outright better than him. If you look at Mike8's list, it's outlined pretty clearly. He's near the top 10 and could very well be within it as soon as next season.

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07-26-2008, 10:57 AM
  #119
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If you think Bouwmeester is just as good as Markov, you have obviously not seen much of either one of them. JB has the potential to be as good as Markov one day, right now there is a huge difference. JB is nowhere close on the offensive side.
Really?

Markov 46, 49, 58 = 153pts over the last 3 years

JayBo 46, 42, 37 = 125pts over the last 3 years.

So Markov outscores JayBo by 28pts over this 3 year span. Which works out to about 9 points a year. So obviously Markov is the better offensive D-man. But I think it's a bit of a stretch on your part to claim that he is nowhere close to Markov on the offensive side.

Now if you want to argue that Markov is a more complete D-man than JayBo. Then I'll agree with you.

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07-26-2008, 11:44 AM
  #120
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[QUOTE=Mike8;14989617]

Quote:
Personally, I put him around Rafalski/Timonen. Not as smart as those two, but his athleticism compensates for it. And Rafalski/Timonen would rank around 10th/11th on my list.
I'd rank him the same!
Quote:
Markov has yet to prove he's a #1 defenseman down the stretch & in the playoffs. He's been an uncriticized disappointment in two gos as the #1 guy.
Thank you for being the other person on this forum to be critical of Markov.

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07-26-2008, 01:30 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
JayBo is definitely top 15. Name me 15 defememan that are outright better than him. If you look at Mike8's list, it's outlined pretty clearly. He's near the top 10 and could very well be within it as soon as next season.
ok...i hate wasting time like this but to me...

markov, hamrlik, chara, rosival, timonen, Paul martin, gonchar, Boyle, Green, Kaberle.

10 better all around dmen than he is , in his own conference.

just add, niedermayer, pronger, rafalski, lidstrom, cambell, visnovsky, phaneuf, zubov,pitkanen and burns... and you have 20 players that are outright better than him.


I'm not saying he's a bad player... I just think he stands between them and the Liles,
redden, mezaros , corvo category...

yes he plays on a ****** team... but in a ****** division too.


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07-26-2008, 01:40 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great View Post
ok...i hate wasting time like this but to me...

markov, hamrlik, chara, rosival, timonen, Paul martin, gonchar, Boyle, Green, Kaberle.

10 better all around dmen than he is , in his own conference.

just add, niedermayer, pronger, rafalski, lidstrom, cambell, visnovsky, phaneuf, zubov,pitkanen and burns... and you have 20 players that are outright better than him.


I'm not saying he's a bad player... I just think he stands between them and the Liles,
redden, mezaros , corvo category...

yes he plays on a ****** team... but in a ****** division too.
Roszival, Martin and Green aren't better than Bouwmeester

He would be nice to have, but at what cost. Unless it's like lats, begin, dandy and a 2nd, which isn't going to happen, I'll pass.

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07-26-2008, 01:48 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great View Post
ok...i hate wasting time like this but to me...

markov, hamrlik, chara, rosival, timonen, Paul martin, gonchar, Boyle, Green, Kaberle.
Hamrlik is not better than Bouwmeester. As habs fans we overrate him. He's great defensively, but not nearly as good as Jay offensively. Paul Martin? Green? That's funny. Boyle has also been terrible as of late. Roszival? Are you serious? The only guys there that are clearly better than JayBo are; Markov, Chara, Gonchar and Kaberle. But many would say that he is comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalev the Great
just add, niedermayer, pronger, rafalski, lidstrom, cambell, visnovsky, phaneuf, zubov,pitkanen and burns... and you have 20 players that are outright better than him.
What the ****? Are you just pulling popular names out of a hat? Visnovsky, Pitkanen, Campbell? Better than Bouwmeester?

Dear god. Are you saying this based on the couple of games you've seen the Habs play these guys? If so I can understand...


Thank god you didn't post this on the main boards...

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07-26-2008, 01:54 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Hamrlik is not better than Bouwmeester. As habs fans we overrate him. He's great defensively, but not nearly as good as Jay offensively. Paul Martin? Green? That's funny. Boyle has also been terrible as of late. Roszival? Are you serious? The only guys there that are clearly better than JayBo are; Markov, Chara, Gonchar and Kaberle. But many would say that he is comparable.
Many would say he's comparable to whom? None of those four guys for sure. Not even close. Timonen and Boyle are, without question, better than Bouwmeester in my mind, too. I think people see that he spends 28 minutes on the ice and automatically assume he's fantastic. Well, watching him as much as I do, I know it's because they have no alternatives. Top 15 is a stretch for me, 20th is more appropriate.

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07-26-2008, 01:58 PM
  #125
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Many would say he's comparable to whom? None of those four guys for sure.
Oh but they do. A lot of knowledgeable posters place JayBo in the top 10 of all Dmen and they do compare him to Markov and Kaberle.

Is he as good? No... is he comparable? Definitely.

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