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Lats finally develops in a Leclair type of power forward

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:34 PM
  #151
MathMan
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Frankly, while I personally believe Lats is a tad ahead of Sergei in development, I think the most important thing about those two is that they're so complementary. I think they should be on the same level on the depth chart -- playing together as wingers with a good two-way center with some goal-scoring ability -- the very best would be someone in the Plekanec mold.

Their styles actually mesh well, and they've assisted on a significant number of each other's goals, which is interesting considering that they didn't play together THAT much. Sergei actually hangs on to the puck in the O-zone and he's a good passer -- he gives time to Latendresse to get to the net, or Lats comes in as the marauder off the rush. Latendresse has the hockey sense to get open and the hands and shot to convert Sergei's passes.

(BTW, that's another reason Lats and Lappy are a terrible match -- Lats needs a set-up man to be at his best, and Lappy so rarely passes it's an event when he does.)

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07-15-2008, 02:36 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think him and Lats are about the same place in development, both have strengths and weaknesses and they blend together pretty well.

My point is that some on here have S.Kost as a future star and Lats as a bust which is quite comical.
No, not many people have did that, and what is quite comical is all the BS you are ready to invent just to overate Lats. Not saying Lats is a bust, but he's one step down from SKost at the moment, which you've went through a lot of imagination to try and disprove as I will show below :


Quote:
If he got that many point playing with those guys like 5-10% of his ice time(which averages out to 12 min a game) then he would put up monster numbers with those guys full time.
No he put up 9 points playing with at least 3 low-tier players. He put up 18 points playing with at least 2 top tier players.

Game 6 - 1st goal, assists Plekanec-Kostopoulos (line : 6, 8, 14, 44, 84) ES
Game 9 - 1st assist, goal Pleks, assist Streit (line : 14, 27, 32, 79, 84) PP
Game 9 - 2nd assist, goal Pleks, assist Breezer (line : 14, 27, 71, 79, 84) PP
Game 12 - 2nd goal, assists Koivu (line : 8, 11, 27, 44, 84) ES
Game 19 - 3rd goal, assists Chips, Hamr (line : 6, 28, 44, 51, 84) ES
Game 20 - 4th goal, assists Breezer, Kovy (line : 14, 27, 71, 79, 84) PP
Game 24 - 5th goal, assists Koivu, Higgy (line : 11, 21, 44, 51, 84) PP
Game 26 - 6th goal, assists Chips, Hamr (line : 25, 28, 44, 71, 84) ES
Game 26 - 7th goal, assists Hamr, Chips (line : 8, 28, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 34 - 8th goal, assists Koivu, Higgins (line : 11, 21, 32, 79, 84) PP
Game 34 - 9th goal, assists Dandy, Lappy (line : 25, 40, 44, 51, 84) ES
Game 37 - 10th goal, assists Koivu, SKost (line : 8, 11, 74, 79, 84) ES
Game 38 - 11th goal, assists Hamr, Koivu (line : 3, 11, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 41 - 3rd assist, goal Hamr, assist Streit (line : 11, 32, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 42 - 4th assist, goal Koivu, assist SKost (line : 11, 44, 71, 74, 84) ES
Game 42 - 12th goal, assist Lapierre, Streit (line : 32, 40, 79, 84) ES
Game 46 - 6th assist, Ryder goal, assist Smokes (line : 20, 32, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 51 - 7th assist, SKost goal, assist Lappy (line : 32, 40, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 51 - 13th goal, assists SKost, Komi (line : 8, 40, 74, 79, 84) ES
Game 51 - 14th goal, assists Pleks, Streit (line : 11, 14, 32, 74, 79, 84) ES

After that Lats went on a 16 game streak with only ONE assist... talk about crapping the bed

Game 64 - 7th assist, SKost goal, assist Bouillon (line : 26, 51, 54, 74, 84) ES
Game 69 - 15th goal, assist SKost, Gorges (line : 20, 26, 51, 74, 84) ES
Game 69 - 8th assist, Kosto goal (EN), assist Hamr (line : 6, 14, 26, 44, 84) ES EN
Game 71 - 9th assist, Ryder goal, assist Lappy (line : 26, 40, 51, 73, 84) ES
Game 73 - 16th goal, assists Koivu, Ryder (line : 11, 51, 73, 79, 84) ES
Game 75 - 10th assist, Ryder goal, assist Koivu (line : 11, 32, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 80 - 11th assist, Dandy goal, assist Lappy (line : 25, 32, 40, 71, 84) ES

Quote:
If S.Kost is that far ahead of Lats why did he crap the bed at the end of the year? I'm sure Lats could have put up more than 0.5 PPGM on a line with Koivu and Higgins all year, he nearly got that with Lapierre and Begin/Dandenault.
Okay here is the real kicker. He didn't get those points with Lappy Bégin and Dandy, he got most of his points playing with Higgy, Koivu, SKost, Plekanec, Kovalev. So that statement is a load of crap. And you really lay it on because Skost got 9 points in his last 17 games, yet you said that he crapped the bed, that's a 0,53 ppg average, and you say that Lats could've gotten that.. so that means that at 0,50 ppg Lats would've also crapped the bed????

SKost managed to garner 27 points, as much as Lats, and did this in 20 games less, and also having a lot of those points playing with Lats, the only time Lats produced regularly on the bottom lines.

SKost also got 8 points in his first 12 playoff games. talk about crapping the bed, I wish Lats would crap the bed like that.

Also, Lats finished at -2 playing against low-tier players for almost half of his on-ice minutes. And SKost finished at +9 playing 2/3 of his on-ice time against the opposing top 2 lines.

Skost also finished the 12 playoff games with a +5. That means only 2 (or maybe less or more, depending on goals he wasn't givin points) goals were scored against the team when he was on the ice at even strenght (147:48 minutes at ES) because he had 7 points total at ES.

And you think they are at the same level?

Take off those rose tainted glasses.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-15-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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Old
07-15-2008, 03:05 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
SKost managed to garner 27 points, as much as Lats, and did this in 20 games less, and also having a lot of those points playing with Lats, the only time Lats produced regularly on the bottom lines.
Let's not oversell this difference. SKost got more points-per-game, but he had better players to work with for more of the time, and most of his points were assists, which makes sense since he is a passer. Latendresse played more time with bottom-six guys, had a similar number of points, but most of his points were goals. Since he is a goal-scorer, that makes sense. But that's not the only reason he had fewer assists -- who he played with was a factor.

A goal-scorer will never get too many assists playing with Dandenault, that's just a fact. Sergei's linemates were better goal-scorers. Typically, Higgins alone has more goals than both Latendresse's linemates put together, and even Koivu is a better scorer than Lapierre or Dandenault.

Heck, Lats had one of the highest goal-scoring rates of the entire team. He was slightly below Kovalev and slightly above AKost and Plekanec -- he actually improved over last year. And I keep being told we sorely need shooters.

It's not really tough -- Lats is an offensive player who does well when he plays with other offensive players. Sergei is an offensive player who does well when playing with other offensive players. Sergei and Lats were productive when they played together. Sergei was productive with Koivu. Lats was productive with Koivu. It's just that when Sergei played on the bottom lines, he had Lats to play off of (and that was a good match). Without Sergei, Lats was stuck with Dandenault and the like -- that's a world of difference, and Sergei never ended up playing with only grinders.

Latendresse isn't as productive without other offensive players, which is fine. We don't know if Sergei would be, since it never happened for him, but I would be surprised if he were.

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Old
07-15-2008, 03:22 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let's not oversell this difference. SKost got more points-per-game, but he had better players to work with for more of the time, and most of his points were assists, which makes sense since he is a passer. Latendresse played more time with bottom-six guys, had a similar number of points, but most of his points were goals. Since he is a goal-scorer, that makes sense. But that's not the only reason he had fewer assists -- who he played with was a factor.
Did you check the comprehensive layout of his stats that I just posted? He got less than 10 points with 3rd-4th line players. 18 of his points came when playing with a combination of either Koivu, Higgins, Plekanec, Kovalev, SKost, Streit, Markov, Hammer and Komi... all top 6 top 4 guys. Only 1/3 of his points were scored when he was on a combination of 3rd and 4th line forwards and bottom Ds.

Quote:
A goal-scorer will never get too many assists playing with Dandenault, that's just a fact. Sergei's linemates were better goal-scorers. Typically, Higgins alone has more goals than both Latendresse's linemates put together, and even Koivu is a better scorer than Lapierre or Dandenault.

Heck, Lats had one of the highest goal-scoring rates of the entire team. He was slightly below Kovalev and slightly above AKost and Plekanec -- he actually improved over last year. And I keep being told we sorely need shooters.
By whom? This team finished 2nd in GF in the league??? I don't get it. And scoring goals is not the only thing that matters. SKost's defensive play is much better as shown by the stats I posted before.

Quote:
It's not really tough -- Lats is an offensive player who does well when he plays with other offensive players. Sergei is an offensive player who does well when playing with other offensive players. Sergei and Lats were productive when they played together. Sergei was productive with Koivu. Lats was productive with Koivu. It's just that when Sergei played on the bottom lines, he had Lats to play off of (and that was a good match). Without Sergei, Lats was stuck with Dandenault and the like -- that's a world of difference, and Sergei never ended up playing with only grinders.

Latendresse isn't as productive without other offensive players, which is fine. We don't know if Sergei would be, since it never happened for him, but I would be surprised if he were.
Right now, SKost played on the top lines because he was more complete, which is the whole point of this debate.

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07-15-2008, 04:25 PM
  #155
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You act like 30% is an insignficant number...it's actually a very big chunk of his points, produced with non-scorers, non-passers.

Is Kosty Jr a little ahead of Latendresse, maybe I'd agree with that, but I think the truth is it's really too close to call, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

For one thing, Kosty has his older brother, which surely adds motivation and confidence/competitiveness to his game. I really doubt Sergei would've performed as well on a team without his older brother. We saw all year long the sibling rivalry that existed, and whenever one brother turned it on, you knew the other was not going to be far behind...

Another factor is that Sergei never really spent time on a line with no scorers at all, like Lats did for a big portion of the season, so is the points comparison really fair?

Sergei probably played on the 2nd line because his skillset was a better match with the Line 2 players, and Carbo would rather have 230lb Latendresse on his checkin line, rather than 180lb Kostitsyn if he had to make the choice between them. It doesn't really speak to who's more balanced, or who'se further along...

Both Lats and Sergei are showing excellent development for their age and well on track to great NHL careers.


Last edited by yukoner: 07-15-2008 at 04:37 PM.
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Old
07-15-2008, 04:31 PM
  #156
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Lats did not play on the top lines because he is no better than any players of the top6.

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07-15-2008, 04:31 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukoner View Post
You act like 30% is an insignficant number...it's actually a very big chunk of his points, produced with non-scorers, non-passers.

Is Kosty Jr a little ahead of Latendresse, maybe I'd agree with that, but I think the truth is it's really too close to call, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

For one thing, Kosty has his older brother, which surely adds motivation and confidence/competitiveness to his game. I really doubt Sergei would've performed as well on a team without his older brother. We saw all year long the sibling rivalry that existed, and whenever one brother turned it on, you knew the other was not going to be far behind...

Another factor is that Sergei never really spent time on a line with no scorers at all, like Lats did for a big portion of the season, so is the points comparison really fair?

Both Lats and Sergei are showing excellent development for their age and well on track to great NHL careers.
The bolded parts I can agree with fully.

But for the 30% of points thing, that's 9 points total, Chips, Lappy and Smokes did about the same on the bottom lines... So I'm pretty sure SKost would easily manage 10 points on the 3rd and 4th line.

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07-15-2008, 05:27 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Wouldn't he be better off with Chuck Norris?

Latendresse

.
No no Tony Stark so he can put a rocket up his a$$.

j/k

I like Lats.

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07-15-2008, 05:49 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
No no Tony Stark so he can put a rocket up his a$$.

j/k

I like Lats.



Yeah, but we would have to test which one would propel Lats further, Iron Man's rocket up Lats a$$ or Chuck Norris round-kick up his a$$...

Remember, Chuck Norris doesn't walk upon the earth, the earth rather moves under his feet.

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07-15-2008, 05:53 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
No, not many people have did that, and what is quite comical is all the BS you are ready to invent just to overate Lats. Not saying Lats is a bust, but he's one step down from SKost at the moment, which you've went through a lot of imagination to try and disprove as I will show below :




No he put up 9 points playing with at least 3 low-tier players. He put up 18 points playing with at least 2 top tier players.

Game 6 - 1st goal, assists Plekanec-Kostopoulos (line : 6, 8, 14, 44, 84) ES
Game 9 - 1st assist, goal Pleks, assist Streit (line : 14, 27, 32, 79, 84) PP
Game 9 - 2nd assist, goal Pleks, assist Breezer (line : 14, 27, 71, 79, 84) PP
Game 12 - 2nd goal, assists Koivu (line : 8, 11, 27, 44, 84) ES
Game 19 - 3rd goal, assists Chips, Hamr (line : 6, 28, 44, 51, 84) ES
Game 20 - 4th goal, assists Breezer, Kovy (line : 14, 27, 71, 79, 84) PP
Game 24 - 5th goal, assists Koivu, Higgy (line : 11, 21, 44, 51, 84) PP
Game 26 - 6th goal, assists Chips, Hamr (line : 25, 28, 44, 71, 84) ES
Game 26 - 7th goal, assists Hamr, Chips (line : 8, 28, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 34 - 8th goal, assists Koivu, Higgins (line : 11, 21, 32, 79, 84) PP
Game 34 - 9th goal, assists Dandy, Lappy (line : 25, 40, 44, 51, 84) ES
Game 37 - 10th goal, assists Koivu, SKost (line : 8, 11, 74, 79, 84) ES
Game 38 - 11th goal, assists Hamr, Koivu (line : 3, 11, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 41 - 3rd assist, goal Hamr, assist Streit (line : 11, 32, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 42 - 4th assist, goal Koivu, assist SKost (line : 11, 44, 71, 74, 84) ES
Game 42 - 12th goal, assist Lapierre, Streit (line : 32, 40, 79, 84) ES
Game 46 - 6th assist, Ryder goal, assist Smokes (line : 20, 32, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 51 - 7th assist, SKost goal, assist Lappy (line : 32, 40, 44, 74, 84) ES
Game 51 - 13th goal, assists SKost, Komi (line : 8, 40, 74, 79, 84) ES
Game 51 - 14th goal, assists Pleks, Streit (line : 11, 14, 32, 74, 79, 84) ES

After that Lats went on a 16 game streak with only ONE assist... talk about crapping the bed

Game 64 - 7th assist, SKost goal, assist Bouillon (line : 26, 51, 54, 74, 84) ES
Game 69 - 15th goal, assist SKost, Gorges (line : 20, 26, 51, 74, 84) ES
Game 69 - 8th assist, Kosto goal (EN), assist Hamr (line : 6, 14, 26, 44, 84) ES EN
Game 71 - 9th assist, Ryder goal, assist Lappy (line : 26, 40, 51, 73, 84) ES
Game 73 - 16th goal, assists Koivu, Ryder (line : 11, 51, 73, 79, 84) ES
Game 75 - 10th assist, Ryder goal, assist Koivu (line : 11, 32, 44, 73, 84) ES
Game 80 - 11th assist, Dandy goal, assist Lappy (line : 25, 32, 40, 71, 84) ES



Okay here is the real kicker. He didn't get those points with Lappy Bégin and Dandy, he got most of his points playing with Higgy, Koivu, SKost, Plekanec, Kovalev. So that statement is a load of crap. And you really lay it on because Skost got 9 points in his last 17 games, yet you said that he crapped the bed, that's a 0,53 ppg average, and you say that Lats could've gotten that.. so that means that at 0,50 ppg Lats would've also crapped the bed????

SKost managed to garner 27 points, as much as Lats, and did this in 20 games less, and also having a lot of those points playing with Lats, the only time Lats produced regularly on the bottom lines.

SKost also got 8 points in his first 12 playoff games. talk about crapping the bed, I wish Lats would crap the bed like that.

Also, Lats finished at -2 playing against low-tier players for almost half of his on-ice minutes. And SKost finished at +9 playing 2/3 of his on-ice time against the opposing top 2 lines.

Skost also finished the 12 playoff games with a +5. That means only 2 (or maybe less or more, depending on goals he wasn't givin points) goals were scored against the team when he was on the ice at even strenght (147:48 minutes at ES) because he had 7 points total at ES.

And you think they are at the same level?

Take off those rose tainted glasses.
Thanks for proving my point. He got 18 points playing with top 2 line players and that was about 1/10 of his total ice time...what does that tell you? Pro rated that's probably above 1 PPGM.

S.Kost played 2/3 to 3/4 of his total ice time with Koivu and Higgins and he was barely above 0.5 PPGM...

The +- is BS, look at the +- on Detroit's roster, that doesn't make them good defensive palyers, they just have the puck 60% of the time.

Unlike you I can look at both prospects objectively, you are the one that wears rose coloured glasses, you know damn well taht if Lats had the opportunities that s.Kost had he'd have 10-15 more points.

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07-15-2008, 05:58 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
Lats did not play on the top lines because he is no better than any players of the top6.
He'd be a better fit than S.Kost on Koivu's line, they'd finally have somebody who can shoot the puck and has size in front of the net.

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07-15-2008, 06:03 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If S.Kost is that far ahead of Lats why did he crap the bed at the end of the year? I'm sure Lats could have put up more than 0.5 PPGM on a line with Koivu and Higgins all year, he nearly got that with Lapierre and Begin/Dandenault.
Hardly crapped the bed, he played 20 less games then Tenderness yet had the same points and a better +/-. Watching him go 9pts in 17 games is not much to scoff at the kid was taken 200th overall.

He also was one of our top 6 forwards when it counts in the playoffs, for a rookie of 50 games thats pretty good. Not to mention he wasnt a healthy scratch in the playoffs like Gui.

If Latendresse was capable of producing on a scoring line and playing defense he would have been there, the excuse of his linemates is lame.

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07-15-2008, 06:08 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Evil Ted View Post
Hardly crapped the bed, he played 20 less games then Tenderness yet had the same points and a better +/-. Watching him go 9pts in 17 games is not much to scoff at the kid was taken 200th overall.

He also was one of our top 6 forwards when it counts in the playoffs, for a rookie of 50 games thats pretty good. Not to mention he wasnt a healthy scratch in the playoffs like Gui.

If Latendresse was capable of producing on a scoring line and playing defense he would have been there, the excuse of his linemates is lame.
You're right Carbo is all knowing and would NEVER use the wrong lines or sit the wrong player

If linemates didn't matter, then guys like Kovalev and Plekanec would be playing with Kotsopoulos or Begin...but don't let the facts get in your way.

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07-15-2008, 06:08 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Ted View Post
Hardly crapped the bed, he played 20 less games then Tenderness yet had the same points and a better +/-. Watching him go 9pts in 17 games is not much to scoff at the kid was taken 200th overall.

He also was one of our top 6 forwards when it counts in the playoffs, for a rookie of 50 games thats pretty good. Not to mention he wasnt a healthy scratch in the playoffs like Gui.

If Latendresse was capable of producing on a scoring line and playing defense he would have been there, the excuse of his linemates is lame.
Different types of players. SK did look like a little kid in the playoffs though, and clearly was intimidated out there....but he's a kid, he'll learn.

As far as Lats is concerned...he is also just a kid...if he's still treading water by 23....I'd say time to raise an eyebrow...

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07-15-2008, 06:26 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Thanks for proving my point. He got 18 points playing with top 2 line players and that was about 1/10 of his total ice time...what does that tell you? Pro rated that's probably above 1 PPGM.
...

Proving your point? anyway I'm gonna go with FACTS you are gonna twist them to say you are right... You first say "Lats had the same stats as SKost, but Lats had those stats with 3rd and 4th liners... now that I've shown that this is untrue, you say that the 18 points he got would prorate to 1 PPG....

You're a bucket of laughs.

And you insist that you are not the one putting on rose tainted glasses?

Now tell me Mr I-like-to-invent-stuff, where did you get that 1/10 of his total ice time? Don't tell me, really, I have feeling I know exactly where that 'fact' comes from...

The same place where you found the fact that Lats made most of his points on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Actually, from what I was able to gather, Lats spent almost half of his minutes with top line players, whether it be Koivu, Plekanec, Kovalev, Higgins, Markov, Streit or Hammer, which would actually give him under 0,50 ppg with top players...

Quote:
S.Kost played 2/3 to 3/4 of his total ice time with Koivu and Higgins and he was barely above 0.5 PPGM...
Still more BS based on what you pull out of the air (or somewhere else, somewhere more dark and sinister that involves the exit point of the contents of your bowels)...

Also, you completely left out the part about playoff stats, SKost was 0,66 ppg, not playing top minutes. While Lats was left to dry

Quote:
The +- is BS, look at the +- on Detroit's roster, that doesn't make them good defensive palyers, they just have the puck 60% of the time.


Yeah, that's why in the playoffs Lats was -5 and SKost was +5... because that stat is utter BS and doesn't mean dick. Grow up. Even when playing top minutes, Lats managed to be in the minus, that is telling of his commitment to defense which is very lacking compared to SKost. Do you actually realize that Detroit plays a much more defensive system and that Montreal plays a system based on more opened play and offense, which requires speed, which Lats lacks compared to the Top 6 players the Habs have. Tell me, if +/- is such a BS stat, why was everybody up in arms when Ryder, Souray and Koivu had bad +/-??? It works both ways Mr.Objectivity.

Do me a favor, start a thread and ask everyone on the board if they think that the +/- stat is BS, and don't forget to mention your own opinion about it, and also don't forget to say that you are objective in your assertion.

Quote:
Unlike you I can look at both prospects objectively, you are the one that wears rose coloured glasses, you know damn well taht if Lats had the opportunities that s.Kost had he'd have 10-15 more points.
Nothing proves this, only your sorry inventions about on-ice minutes. Do you actually realize that what you write cannot be trusted because of your habit at making stuff up? A few examples of your BS : 1- On which lines and with which players Lats made most of his points. 2- That SKost 'crapped the bed' at the end of the season, when in reality, he had 17 points in 29 games in his last 17 games of the season and in the 12 playoff games he played. 3- That Lats played only 1/10 of his minutes with top players (which is laughable because 1/10 is lower than the time he spent on the PP with top players on the same PP line, now add to this the time on ES, and you'll get about half of his minutes with top players).

Talk about objectivity!!!!!!!!

Saying Lats would be PPG if he were to play top minutes... !!! (only Kovy was PPG, so that would mean Lats is better offensively than Koivu, AKost, Pleks, Higgins...)

What beautiful objectivity!!!

Saying the +/- stat is ********!!!

What rational objectivity ladies and gents.

Well Mr Objectivity, why did Carbo put him in the pressbox for 1/3 of their playoff run? Why was he -5 with only 1 point in 8 games?? Probably all Carbo's fault Mr.Objectivity will answer!! You can talk all you want about SKost 'penalties' yet Lats took more than 1 penalty per game for the 8 games he played in the playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You're right Carbo is all knowing and would NEVER use the wrong lines or sit the wrong player

If linemates didn't matter, then guys like Kovalev and Plekanec would be playing with Kotsopoulos or Begin...but don't let the facts get in your way.
That's not what he said. If you read correctly (I mean take off those rose tainted glasses already) he's saying Lats didn't get those minutes because his game wasn't up to it. He didn't do all that was required, meaning being offensive at the same time as having a commitment to defense.

And you're the one who's supposedly objective... gimme a break, give us all a break.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 07-16-2008 at 09:57 AM.
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07-15-2008, 06:56 PM
  #166
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Why always compairing our players...i.e. Lats vs S.Kost; Lats vs Pacioretty; Lapierre vs Chipchura...Price vs Halak, and so on. And its always to eliminate one or the other from the Habs roster...

Let's be happy instead to have so many young talent that will grow over the next few years to help the Habs remain Cup contenders for a long while.

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07-15-2008, 09:19 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Why always compairing our players...i.e. Lats vs S.Kost; Lats vs Pacioretty; Lapierre vs Chipchura...Price vs Halak, and so on. And its always to eliminate one or the other from the Habs roster...

Let's be happy instead to have so many young talent that will grow over the next few years to help the Habs remain Cup contenders for a long while.
Well, personaly, I like every Habs player and am always willing to as patient as possible with the youth. I never put a ceiling on a prospect because cases like Plekanec have shown that you can never do such a thing.

This comparison was prompted by the user CareyPrice, because he wishes to see Latendresse play top minutes instead of SKost. He's entitled to his opinion, but many here have seen that presently, Skost is more advanced in his development and shows more upside and is more complete, at this moment.

I also hate comparing players but when push comes to shove, I always chose the player that has shown his best game with consistency and in this case it's SKost.

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07-15-2008, 09:28 PM
  #168
shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated R Superstar View Post
What? He played bottom 6 minutes 90% of the time these 2 years. No wonder he hasn't proved anything. You want him to play with Lapierre and Kostopoulos and score 30 goals?


Tell me, you think Chris Higgins is so great? He's good but waaayyyyy overrated here.
The reason he plays on the 3rd and 4th line and was benched during the playoffs is because he didn't do anything when he was given top line responsibilities. Unlike say.... S. Kosty and Higins before him who took the bull by the horns. Tender, I reiterate, has done nothing to prove he is a power forward in this league. I wish he would, as do all Habs fan, but sorry to say he hasn't reached his potential yet.

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07-15-2008, 09:31 PM
  #169
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People love complaining too much and nitpicking and whatnot.

Lats and Skost have two very different skillsets, one is small,fast,feisty,and an exellent playmaker more than a shooter, the other is a big,slow,not as physical as we d like him to be for his size, and more of a shooter than a playmaker.
The two of them do have some commun points, like vision,good hands and both have a very good upside.

Lats did have a better opportunity than S kost, because he was brought in earlier and had more chances to show what he could do. S kost however thanx to some exellent coaching in the junior and some other things have showed more too, but that s no reason to dismiss Lats which as pretty much every other forwards his size and with his skillsets, take TIME AND PATIENCE to develop, it s not because one recipe work with one player that it ll work with the other player

I d actually love to see them on the same line with Koivu, Pleky needs to stay with Kovy, or they d probably do even fine with Chip, but I feel that they can compliment each other very well

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07-16-2008, 12:20 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Did you check the comprehensive layout of his stats that I just posted? He got less than 10 points with 3rd-4th line players.
While true, it tends to defeat your point. Lats has a good scoring rate. If his scoring rate dips when he plays with fourth-liners, that means his scoring rate when he does not play with fourth-liners is even higher than his (already good) overall rate... and that the Habs are missing out by not using him on the top six, unless they have better players to use. This happens to be the case, but only because Higgins is a more complete player (Lats is as good as scoring if not better). Lats was stuck between two very good LWs through no fault of his own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
By whom? This team finished 2nd in GF in the league??? I don't get it.
By Lafleur's Guy. I don't especially get it either. I'm more concerned with efficiency ratios, and Lats is pretty good there (so is Sergei).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
And scoring goals is not the only thing that matters. SKost's defensive play is much better as shown by the stats I posted before.
Oh yes. SKost got a better plus-minus while playing almost entirely with guys who were capable even-strength scorers and capable defensively. Lats got a worse plus-minus while playing significant chunks of icetime with guys that are offensively inept and defensively perilous. Small wonder SKost has a better plus/minus. I hope I don't have to reiterate how that's a +/- is a team stat and needs to be taken with a sizable chunk of salt... and that it's about both offense and defense.

There's no real statistical evidence to point to either of them being better than mediocre defensively. The shot for/against metrics, which I am ambivalent about, are comparable (and actually favor Latendresse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Right now, SKost played on the top lines because he was more complete, which is the whole point of this debate.
Skost played on the top lines because Ryder was booted down on the depth chart and SKost is a RW. Lats was stuck between AKost (who is a better player at this stage) and Higgins (who is maybe not as good a scorer but is more experienced and more complete). Then there's matters of chemistry.

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07-16-2008, 12:27 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Sthabs View Post
People love complaining too much and nitpicking and whatnot.
yea really. Just let them develop and see what happens. Comparing them both is retarded, at best.

arguing semantics is AWESOME.

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07-16-2008, 02:51 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He's good at carrying the puck, that's the strength of his game. He was just a very poor fit on the Koivu line, passed way too much and never shot the puck...and took a few dumb penalities. He is the major reason why they traded for Tanguay, he needs to play on the 3rd line.

He needs work defensively, but playing with Koivu and Higgins covered that up quite well.

I think him and Lats are about the same place in development, both have strengths and weaknesses and they blend together pretty well.

My point is that some on here have S.Kost as a future star and Lats as a bust which is quite comical.



If he got that many point playing with those guys like 5-10% of his ice time(which averages out to 12 min a game) then he would put up monster numbers with those guys full time.

If S.Kost is that far ahead of Lats why did he crap the bed at the end of the year? I'm sure Lats could have put up more than 0.5 PPGM on a line with Koivu and Higgins all year, he nearly got that with Lapierre and Begin/Dandenault.


Sorry, but you don't know anything about hockey if you think Guillaume Latendresse is better than Sergei Kostitsyn !! I mean is this a joke ?!

Latendresse is slow, lazy, doesn't use his size and is useless defensively while Sergei has it all !! The only thing Latendresse has on Sergei is size and even that, Gui doesn't even use it like Sergei and he's way smaller than him !!

Anybody that is a little sane would tell you that Sergei Kostitsyn put Latendresse in his pocket any time !! Do you know why Latendresse didn't play in the top 2 lines ?!?! Because he didn't deserves to !! Being too Slow, lazy and useless defensively was why he coudn't play in a top 6 role. Latendresse in a top 6 role means we are in deep trouble.

And what do you mean by crapping the bed at the end of the year ?!?! Sergei had a ratio of 0,55 ppg in his last 17 games (he got 9 points) and 8 points in 12 games in the playoffs !! Also, Sergei was one of the best Habs player in the playoffs and all this at barely 21 years old !! He was probably the best player after Koivu and Kovalev. Where was Latendresse in all this ?!?! Ohh yeah, he was a healthy scratch for 4 games in the playoffs and had an incredible production of.... 1 assist !!


Don't you even dare to compare Sergei Kostitsyn to Guillaume Latendress, because Gui is not even in the same league as Sergei.


Skating = Sergei
Agility = Sergei
Grit = Sergei
Hustle = Sergei
Agressiveness = Sergei
Toughness = Sergei
Shooting skills = Tie (Sergei has an incredible shooting percentage and possess a wicked wrister)
Scoring ability = Tie (Sergei Scoring ability is very underrated because he didn't shot much, but he can scores)
Passing Skills = Sergei
Playmaking ability = Sergei
Offensive awareness = Sergei
Defensive awareness = Sergei
Vision = Sergei
Positionning = Sergei
Size = Latendresse
Strenght = Latendresse


So tell me where do you see Latendresse being better than Sergei other than strenght and size ?!


Sorry to wake you up in a brutal way, because nobody would take Latendresse instead of Sergei.


Sergei Kostitsyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Latendresse and it's not even close !!




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07-16-2008, 06:43 AM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Lats is just an average player, who can fill a top 6 role for a short period of time if someone is injured, yes he is still young, but he hasn't shown anything in his game that gives indication to improvement. Lats is a very straight-forward player, with little vision in his game, he has the size that he does not use it and avergae hands.
I'll agree that he's young and that as of now, he was better suited to short stints on the top 6 but you're totally out to lunch about everything else.

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07-16-2008, 07:01 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
I'll agree that he's young and that as of now, he was better suited to short stints on the top 6 but you're totally out to lunch about everything else.
If you stopped there, it would have been funnier.

Young players play in short stints for the most part. That's why you don't see as many 19 year old d men as forwards, the mistakes cost more. When he figures what works for him in terms of using his particular talents, and can do it more consistently, he'll get more time with good players.

That's the way it works and like usual it falls well between the extreme opinions. If he's retrieving pucks and taking a strong shooting position, he's an asset alongside a Koivy type playmaker, when he isn't, he isn't complete enough to stick around after bad games. Bad teams can afford to wait, while the CH as they've improved and are closely scrutinized, can't.

Play well, you play in better situations, don't and you don't.

You have to figure that he'll fall somewjere between Isbister and Bertuzzi and in both of those cases, theguy was 5-6 years in before you could make a good educated guess.

Of course, this is hf and if anyone slights someone's favourite player, you immediately know nothing about hockey. Tiresome at times ehhh ?

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07-16-2008, 07:36 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
I'll agree that he's young and that as of now, he was better suited to short stints on the top 6 but you're totally out to lunch about everything else.
Well, I would have also agreed that at times he doesn't use his size effectively, but the rest of what that guy said was crap.

I still have high hopes for both Gui and Sergei. What I don’t understand is people who cannot the potential that Gui possesses. Sure, he is going to have to continue to work hard at it, especially his skating, but the kid has the hands and vision of an excellent offensive player. I think he can definatley turn out to be a heathlyer (hopefully) version of Eric Daze, with perhaps a bit more grit in his game.

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