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Connolly and one of your goalies?

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Old
02-27-2004, 02:10 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
It doesn't mirror Satan's production. Satan was -7 in October. Most complaints about Satan occurred AFTER that, when he was no longer captain, particularly in November and December. In November he was -2 for an extended period. Once again, +/- fails to tell the story. And February, when Satan has been turning his game around, Satan is -1. +/- has been useless in judging Satan's play.

I could build a team of - players and win the Cup.

Well it's funny how you take Satan's example out of all the ones I provided. Do you care to comment on the others....

I know it's not applicable to every player in the league, but I did provide concrete examples of where it does show that the player's performance can correlate with his +/- . It can be useful, anyone who says it's 100% useless does not know what they are talking about.

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02-27-2004, 05:24 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
The cases of +/- correlating to good play is less than when it doesn't correlate.

Scouts don't use plus minus at all. That's not a scout's job. A scout's job is to judge the player on the ice, not read stats on a player.

In terms of judging defense, of those that saw the game against the Devils, does anybody think that Zhitnik, Kalinin, Delmore or Campbell played well in the least?

There are many reasons why +/- sucks. It makes the stat bad. Not paying attention to a bad stat doesn't make one biased, it makes one reasonable.
If you see someone with a - 10 rating or worse, you know they are having a bad season, whether it's a lack of scoring, or poor defensive play. Likewise, if you see someone with a +10 or better, it's likely that the player is having a good season. The Selke award winner generally has one of the best +/- ratings in the league. Since 1993, +19 is the lowest rating for a Selke winner, the average in that time is +31. Since 1990, the Norris trophy has only gone to one player with a - rating (Rob Blake, -3, 1998, career high 23 goals, led all defencemen that year), otherwise, the winners have been +9 or higher, with an average of +24.8.

How do you know that scouts don't use +/-? Are you a scout? Do you work for an NHL team? How many scouts do you know personally? I would assume that a scouts job is to use every available piece of information to judge a player. I assume that would include looking at all the stats, as well as watching how he plays in games, especialy big games (tounaments, playoffs, etc.). If you're a scout, are you going to see a player in 4 or 5 games a season (if that) and then say that that player has got to be on your team? At the very least, I'd look at the +/- ratings for a players worst games and would be watching the tapes carefully to see exactly what that player was doing.

It's not perfect but it is not 100% useless either.

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02-27-2004, 10:19 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
If you see someone with a - 10 rating or worse, you know they are having a bad season, whether it's a lack of scoring, or poor defensive play. Likewise, if you see someone with a +10 or better, it's likely that the player is having a good season. The Selke award winner generally has one of the best +/- ratings in the league. Since 1993, +19 is the lowest rating for a Selke winner, the average in that time is +31. Since 1990, the Norris trophy has only gone to one player with a - rating (Rob Blake, -3, 1998, career high 23 goals, led all defencemen that year), otherwise, the winners have been +9 or higher, with an average of +24.8.

How do you know that scouts don't use +/-? Are you a scout? Do you work for an NHL team? How many scouts do you know personally? I would assume that a scouts job is to use every available piece of information to judge a player. I assume that would include looking at all the stats, as well as watching how he plays in games, especialy big games (tounaments, playoffs, etc.). If you're a scout, are you going to see a player in 4 or 5 games a season (if that) and then say that that player has got to be on your team? At the very least, I'd look at the +/- ratings for a players worst games and would be watching the tapes carefully to see exactly what that player was doing.

It's not perfect but it is not 100% useless either.
youre right. its only about 92% useless.

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Old
02-28-2004, 08:56 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
youre right. its only about 92% useless.
Out of the 25 winners of the Norris and Selke tropy mentioned above, only 1 had a negative +/-, and only 2 had less than a +10, that would make it only 8% useless...


Interesting comment found while surfing...

- 13 Kovalchuk Gets Benched for Failing to Understand What "Your Own Zone" Means
The Atlanta Thrashers benched star winger Ilya Kovalchuk on Thursday because of poor defensive play. The Thrashers entered Thursday's game against Toronto as the NHL's only winless team. Kovalchuk's rating of minus-13 ranks last in the NHL.

Talk about an understatement. -5 is poor defensive play. -13 is Cinncinnati Bengals bad. -13 is Keanu Reeves acting bad. -13 is Tommy Salo against Belarus bad. -13 is Mike Keenan interpersonal relationship abilities bad. -13 is Larry King marriage enrichment bad. -13 is Doug Reisbrough General Manager bad. I think we all get the picture.

posted by Jordon Cooper | 9:45 PM | Comment (0)

http://www.hockeypundits.com/2002_10_01_archives.html


Last edited by djhn579: 02-28-2004 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Added comment
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Old
02-28-2004, 11:54 AM
  #55
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And another interesting comment from a player...

Wideman has been saving that for his own end of the ice, where he's priding himself on his defensive play this season.

"This year I haven't thought a whole lot about points (he has 55), I've thought more about plus-minus," he said.

"Ever since I've been here (he joined the Knights in a trade from Sudbury in 2000-01), I think I've been a minus (meaning he was on the ice for more goals against, than goals scored by the Knights).

"That bothered me. If you're playing on a team that's 3-20, you're going to be a minus. But we were right around .500, so I should have been around zero.

"That reflects a lot on how you play in your own zone and I really wanted to work on that this year."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/London...28/363984.html

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Old
02-28-2004, 12:03 PM
  #56
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So much for GM's not using +/- at all...

"When you consider that approximately 70 to 75 percent of the game is played at even-strength -- and the plus/minus is (more of) an even-strength stat -- you have to consider it a significant statistic," said Flames general manager Craig Button. "I look at it, but I do so in relation to the total picture."

and...

Bruins GM Mike O'Connell also looks at the plus/minus numbers, but notes they can be misleading.

"It's an indicator, but I don't think it tells the whole story," O'Connell said. "But, in the long haul, it is a positive thing to be a plus player."

http://espn.go.com/nhl/columns/hradek_ej/1474603.html

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Old
02-28-2004, 12:08 PM
  #57
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Ok, ok... this has gone pretty far off topic and I'm closing it up.

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