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Something that Worries me about Cole...

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Old
07-21-2008, 12:01 AM
  #51
guymez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Another line combo I mentioned in the past could be Penner-Gagner-Cole.

MacT kind of threw it out there around the time of the trades. Like he was thinking out loud whether or not a guy like Nilsson could be ready for 1st line minutes. Nilsson-Horcoff-Hemsky.

One thing would be for sure Gagner should have plenty of time and space with those two big wingers creating havoc.
One issue with Gagner playing in the middle is faceoffs. With the absence of Stoll and Reasoner (outside of Horcoff) this team really doesn't have a reliable centre for faceoffs. I guess one option is to have Penner take the draw but this is an aspect of Gagner's game that he really needs to focus on.

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07-21-2008, 12:01 AM
  #52
hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by Agent Zero View Post
Take Hemsky away from Horcoff and we'll see that Horcoff is truly a 2nd line center.
I don't know.

Hemsky didn't produce at the same level without Horcoff does that mean he isn't a first line winger?

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07-21-2008, 12:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Agent Zero View Post
Take Hemsky away from Horcoff and we'll see that Horcoff is truly a 2nd line center.
How do you define a second line centre?

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07-21-2008, 12:09 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I don't know.

Hemsky didn't produce at the same level without Horcoff does that mean he isn't a first line winger?
As blasphemous as it might be, I think its a make or break year for Hemsky in terms of being the prime offensive catalyst.

That right there is a very valid question. We'll have to see if this is the year he can truly be dominant night in and night out.

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07-21-2008, 12:14 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
As blasphemous as it might be, I think its a make or break year for Hemsky in terms of being the prime offensive catalyst.

That right there is a very valid question. We'll have to see if this is the year he can truly be dominant night in and night out.
Just because a player does not produce the same without another good player does not mean they aren't good players or first line material.

Gretzky never produced as well without Jarri Kurri and vice versa but it would be silly to assume that either of those players could not play on a first line.

Hockey is a team game, obviously finding combinations that work is part of the game.

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07-21-2008, 12:20 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Just because a player does not produce the same without another good player does not mean they aren't good players or first line material.

Gretzky never produced as well without Jarri Kurri and vice versa but it would be silly to assume that either of those players could not play on a first line.

Hockey is a team game, obviously finding combinations that work is part of the game.
And if your team's best players aren't as good as another team's best players then you really put your team at a disadvantage. Chemistry or no chemistry, your first line putting goals in the net on a consistant basis helps your team win hockey games.

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Old
07-21-2008, 12:26 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
And if your team's best players aren't as good as another team's best players then you really put your team at a disadvantage. Chemistry or no chemistry, your first line putting goals in the net on a consistant basis helps your team win hockey games.
Of course but any line in the NHL will be worse if you take an important component away.

So really that same point applies to all 30 teams.

No one is saying Horcoff is an elite centre but 70 - 80 points makes him a first line centre.

Can you 29 better centres?

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07-21-2008, 12:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Very interesting...it never occurred to me to put Cole and Penner on the 1st line. One concern i would have with this is that it makes the 2nd line very easy to play against. They would need some serious sheltering.
The other thing is that MacT would be playing his best player on the second line which would mean reduced minutes for Hemsky.
I think TC and the pre season is going to see a lot of fiddling and until the coaching staff get their fill of watching it is all open. And I don't think one line will necessarily get more time than the other EV. PP and PK will add to some player's totals though, of course.

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07-21-2008, 12:47 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Of course but any line in the NHL will be worse if you take an important component away.

So really that same point applies to all 30 teams.

No one is saying Horcoff is an elite centre but 70 - 80 points makes him a first line centre.

Can you 29 better centres?
It doesn't matter to me who puts up the points on this team as long as someone does it. Someone on the first 3 lines is going to see a production drop off just due to shear numbers, the question is who?

Ultimately I believe it will be Gagner that will elevate Hemsky's game. There hasn't been another player during Hemsky's time here that has had the offensive instinct and skill that Gagner brings. Horcoff, bless his soul, is a meat and potatoes player, gets his points through hard work and outbattling his opponent.

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07-21-2008, 01:15 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
It doesn't matter to me who puts up the points on this team as long as someone does it. Someone on the first 3 lines is going to see a production drop off just due to shear numbers, the question is who?

Ultimately I believe it will be Gagner that will elevate Hemsky's game. There hasn't been another player during Hemsky's time here that has had the offensive instinct and skill that Gagner brings. Horcoff, bless his soul, is a meat and potatoes player, gets his points through hard work and outbattling his opponent.

I always think of this article (from when Horcoff was injured) when people say Hemsky is just as good/better without Horcoff, and that without Hemsky...Horcoff is just a 2nd line center. They are great together. This has some good quotes.

"Seems like we haven't scored five-on-five in, oh, 55 games," said Hemsky, who clearly misses Horcoff's ability to carry the puck and wait in the attacking zone to find Hemsky, or shoot it himself.

"He would trade the puck and create some offence."

"He could score the goals, too, by finding some open space if people were reading me," said Hemsky. "It's tough to find somebody else like that."



MacT also agreed that Horcoff was the one missing from the top line.

What kind of centre would be the best fit for Hemsky?

"Horcoff," said MacTavish, not even attempting to stickhandle.



Did Penner play better with Horcoff as well? MacT sure thought so.

"Dustin missed Horc, too, because he's a grinder. He needs guys who can complement him the way he plays, too. It's not ideal (the line combination), but when you run into injuries, you make do with what you have," said MacTavish.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...e85b3d&k=88726

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Old
07-21-2008, 01:18 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
One issue with Gagner playing in the middle is faceoffs. With the absence of Stoll and Reasoner (outside of Horcoff) this team really doesn't have a reliable centre for faceoffs. I guess one option is to have Penner take the draw but this is an aspect of Gagner's game that he really needs to focus on.
Yeah that is true though Penner is good on face offs. I guess he could take some of the draws. Especially in the D zone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil View Post
I think TC and the pre season is going to see a lot of fiddling and until the coaching staff get their fill of watching it is all open. And I don't think one line will necessarily get more time than the other EV. PP and PK will add to some player's totals though, of course.
If Cole ends up with Horcoff and Hemsky. I could see that line logging some serious minutes at ES. All three can produce against tough comp and not get killed at the other end.

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07-21-2008, 09:32 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I don't know.

Hemsky didn't produce at the same level without Horcoff does that mean he isn't a first line winger?
Penner and Stoll are not first line centers. I think if you have a line of Horcoff-Cole without Hemsky both will put up only 50-60 points.

How about the following line up?

I would love too see Gagner and Hemsky move the puck around, opening up Cogliano for a shot in the slot.

Cole-Horcoff-Nilsson
Cogliano-Gagner-Hemsky

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07-21-2008, 09:34 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
It doesn't matter to me who puts up the points on this team as long as someone does it. Someone on the first 3 lines is going to see a production drop off just due to shear numbers, the question is who?

Ultimately I believe it will be Gagner that will elevate Hemsky's game. There hasn't been another player during Hemsky's time here that has had the offensive instinct and skill that Gagner brings. Horcoff, bless his soul, is a meat and potatoes player, gets his points through hard work and outbattling his opponent.
Hopefully they get time together to play 5v5.

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07-21-2008, 11:50 AM
  #64
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This is an exciting time to be an Oiler fan.

I cant wait to see our squad on the ice!

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Old
07-21-2008, 02:19 PM
  #65
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Gagner could play with Hemsky eventually but I don't think so this season. A lot of people can look good together on the PP when the team is at an advantage. Horcoff has proven that he and Hemsky can produce at a first line rate 5v5. And the way things were looking last year you would be an idiot to break up the chemistry between those two. Especially considering the defense that they can play too.

As for Cole,

he is a tough player who will work hard in whatever position he is put in. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we have seen him on both wings and there wasn't any huge point reduction in his game when switched from one to the other. I believe he will play on the top line at even strength for the simple fact of his speed and being able to keep up with horcoff and hemmer.

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Old
07-21-2008, 03:06 PM
  #66
hockeyaddict101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Zero View Post
Penner and Stoll are not first line centers. I think if you have a line of Horcoff-Cole without Hemsky both will put up only 50-60 points.

How about the following line up?

I would love too see Gagner and Hemsky move the puck around, opening up Cogliano for a shot in the slot.

Cole-Horcoff-Nilsson
Cogliano-Gagner-Hemsky
Hemsky seems to disagree about Horcoff not being a number one centre as does MacTavish.

His value as usual being underrated by some on this board.

Good quotes on Hemsky's opinion on who he wants as his centre were posted above. Certain players have chemistry together and splitting them and trying to find a better first line centre is not the best option.

Hemsky feels that Horcoff is his best fit, who are we to argue!

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Old
07-21-2008, 03:44 PM
  #67
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Horcoff means as much to Hemsky as Hemsky means to Horcoff.

Moving on...

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07-21-2008, 03:56 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Horcoff means as much to Hemsky as Hemsky means to Horcoff.

Moving on...
Couldn't have put it better myself.

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Old
07-21-2008, 06:00 PM
  #69
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The wink means he's kidding.
perhaps he should have used the sarcasm emoticon then. I definitely didn't get that from the wink.

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07-22-2008, 12:34 AM
  #70
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Well...

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
Hossa-Gagner-Cole
Moreau-Cogliano-Pisani
Nilsson-Brodziak-Schremp

To what could have been

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