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Old
07-19-2008, 03:11 PM
  #1
Velociraptor
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The Flames.

The Flames are doing exactly what we did last off season, adding useless 3rd, 4th liners. I'm not saying it's completely inadequate but are they headed for a similar season to what we had last season?

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07-19-2008, 03:14 PM
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Cammalleri and Bourque arent 3rd liners.

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07-19-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
Cammalleri and Bourque arent 3rd liners.
yeah but if you look at it this way....

Iginla-Langkow-Cammalerri was our Sedin-Sedin-Naslund

relying on Morrison (Lombardi) and Pyatt (Bourque) for secondary scoring?

Morrison > Lombardi
Pyatt > Bourque

Calgary is beyond screwed for offense past that 1st line, and we all know Luongo is a better goaltender than Kiprusoff

sure they still have Dion and Regehr but I just can't see the Flames exceeding this year

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07-19-2008, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
Cammalleri and Bourque arent 3rd liners.
aye but they lost Tanguay as well.

The Flames may not be improving greatly but their offense was already better than ours so its not as big of a deal.

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07-19-2008, 03:30 PM
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Probably not, as they have Iginla, who is the ultimate dealbreaker. We had no such dominating, assertive offensive force last season.

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07-19-2008, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAuldie View Post
aye but they lost Tanguay as well.

The Flames may not be improving greatly but their offense was already better than ours so its not as big of a deal.
They lost Tanguay and Huselius which is a solid 140 points and not to mention the skill they bring to Flames PP. They replaced them with Bertuzzi, Cammallari, and Bourque which I believe does not justify the skill level the former brought.

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07-19-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SonicY View Post
Probably not, as they have Iginla, who is the ultimate dealbreaker. We had no such dominating, assertive offensive force last season.
Agreed. Iginla is so dominant that any line-up with him in it has a decent chance to win. The way I look at it Iginla, Kiprusoff and Phanuef are all top tier players that can dominate in any game. Beyond that it drops off dramatically. If one or more of these three go down for an extended period the Flames won't be far off the Tavares sweepstakes.

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07-19-2008, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
Cammalleri and Bourque arent 3rd liners.
How is Bourque not a third liner? The guy is going on 28 and has a career high of 16 goals and 34 points. He's as much of a top-6 player as Taylor Pyatt.

The Flames have a lot of variables in terms of how they are going to perform. They have reduced their offense, as Cammalleri, Glencross, and Bourque are a clear downgrade on Tanguay, Huselius, and Nolan and I don't think that improvements from Boyd, Lombardi, etc. will be enough to make up for it. That said, they should be expecting a rebound season from Kiprusoff which should help them. Whether they can get their consistency back will go a long way to determining how they fare this season.

EDIT: Yikes, how did I forget about Bertuzzi. He'll replace Nolan in the lineup.


Last edited by pitseleh: 07-19-2008 at 03:46 PM.
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07-19-2008, 03:44 PM
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I don't know, I was thinking they would try and spread things out a little and move Cammalleri down to the second line with Lombardi and Bertuzzi. There's no one left of Tanguay's caliber to play with Iginla and Langkow, but from a crowd of Bourque, Boyd, Moss, Glencross, etc. they should be able to find a Pyatt type player that can fit in.

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07-19-2008, 03:49 PM
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Well, they've clearly downgraded offensively. Tanguay, Huselius, and Nolan is clearly a better group than Cammallari, Bertuzzi, Bourque, and Glencross.

Something no-one has mentioned yet is how ridiculously healthy Calgary was last year, too. Their 11 most important players (top-6/top-4/#1) missed a combined 18 games, which is just obscenely good luck, and probably represented the healthiest core group in the league. That won't repeat this year.

I suspect they might be in a bit of trouble next year. The big question mark is Kiprusoff. He was very average last year. If he returns to his previous form, Calgary will be in the playoffs. If he doesn't, they'll probably be on the outside looking in, IMO.

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07-19-2008, 03:56 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
Cammalleri and Bourque arent 3rd liners.
Bourque is a 3rd liner.

I live in Calgary and follow the Flames pretty close and I think they're in trouble this year. Secondary scoring will be a problem and their backend lacks puckmovers as well as guy's that can skate the puck out of their own zone. Dion Phaneuf will help keep the offense respectable but I just don't think it'll be enough.

Defensively the Flames are in a bit of trouble as well if Kiprussoff can't regain his Vezina form. The consensus in Calgary is that the loss of Tanguay and specifically Huselius will help with team defense but adding Cammalleri and especially Bertuzzi will put them even further behind IMO. Bertuzzi like Huselius is a liability defensively but with Todd comes penalties and lot's of them. Calgary being in the bottom 1/3 of the league in PK will cost them.

One of the biggest backwards steps the Flames have taken that could come back to haunt them is durabilty. Huselius and Tanguay never missed more than a handful of games between them during their stints in Calgary. With a thin top 6 and no youngsters ready to step into increased scoring roles it could prove catastrophic if Cammalleri and the oft injured Todd Bertuzzi can't stay healthy for the majority of the 08-09 season.

Sutter may have replaced some of the goals from Huselius, Tanguay and Nolan but he certainly hasn't addressed the loss of the teams 2 most proficient set up men. Without Tanguay and Huselius' high end playmaking abilities who will the Flames rely on to make plays?

More questions than answers, that's for sure. IMO the Flames will fall to the bottom of the NW division.

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07-19-2008, 04:10 PM
  #12
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Yeah, the Kiprusoff is going to have to have a good year for the Flames to make any noise.

Their offense is centered around Iginla, which isn't a bad thing, but drops off significantly after him.

The defense has Regehr, who is a serviceable 2nd defensemen, and Phaneuf, who is good but is overpaid at this moment of time. He isn't a Pronger, Niedermeyer, or Lidstrom, though he likely will be at that level one day. After that, they've some has beens but not much else, with nobody who looks like they could step up and exceed expectations.

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07-19-2008, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstoppable View Post
yeah but if you look at it this way....

Iginla-Langkow-Cammalerri was our Sedin-Sedin-Naslund

relying on Morrison (Lombardi) and Pyatt (Bourque) for secondary scoring?

Morrison > Lombardi
Pyatt > Bourque

Calgary is beyond screwed for offense past that 1st line, and we all know Luongo is a better goaltender than Kiprusoff

sure they still have Dion and Regehr but I just can't see the Flames exceeding this year
Iginla-Langkow-Cammalleri is much much better than Sedin-Sedin-Naslund.

I also think Rene Bourque has a higher ceiling than Taylor Pyatt.

Cammalleri-Langkow-Iginla
Bourque-Lombardi-Bertuzzi

not a bad top 6...not spectacular, but not bad. Overall I'd say they're a 6th or 7th place team.

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07-19-2008, 04:57 PM
  #14
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Something I find about Bertuzzi is that he gets a lot of penalties when he isn't necessarily deserving of them. This has too play havic with his mind, because he doesn't seem to play with the same edge he used to.
I do believe however, that Calgary mght just be the place where he can get some confidence back. Iginla seems excited to have Bertuzzi on the team and the coach is a fan of his. If Bertuzzi is not able to regain some of his former play, I think Calgary is weaker on offense than before.

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07-19-2008, 05:03 PM
  #15
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Calgary's offense is worse than last year but not that bad. Bert will likely be on the first line and Cammy will anchor the second line. Flames are obviously banking that Lombardi and Cammy build some chemistry which they probably will cause those are some fast skaters.

The biggest fear Flames fans should be worried about is Kipper's annual start of the season suckfest. It's been getting longer and longer since he become a full time starter in 2004.

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07-19-2008, 05:16 PM
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Bourque is ridiculously overrated. Watch and see.

Nice to see them pick up Roy, going to be some intense fights amongst everyone in the NW this year.

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Old
07-19-2008, 05:25 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Calgary's offense is worse than last year but not that bad. Bert will likely be on the first line and Cammy will anchor the second line. Flames are obviously banking that Lombardi and Cammy build some chemistry which they probably will cause those are some fast skaters.
The biggest fear Flames fans should be worried about is Kipper's annual start of the season suckfest. It's been getting longer and longer since he become a full time starter in 2004.
Cammalleri is a below average skater, weak on the puck and a total non factor in his own zone. With that said a healthy Cammalleri is a very good offensive player and will give them another lethal shot on the pp to go with Iginla.

Kiprussoff has fallen off but part of his struggles have to be attributed to the Flames lack of defensive game and Keenan's inability to implement a system or put time in practicing the penalty kill.

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07-19-2008, 05:28 PM
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I think the Flames season comes down to two people: Keenan and Kiprusoff.

Kiprusoff for obvious reasons. If the Flames want to get anywhere, he needs to return to form. I expect he'll have a bounce-back season, but I think the peak of his career is behind him (which I base on little more than my sincere hope as a Canuck fan.)

Keenan's case is more interesting. Personnel-wise, the Flames seem to be making an effort to return to the gritty, working class, defensive teams of coach Sutter's era. They had great success with this formula during their big run. But can Keenan coach a structured, defense-first style? I don't think he can. He's all about "gut" and "instinct" and riding his star players. He's from an altogether different era.

As far as I'm concerned, the Flames have a really solid line-up. They should be able to do some damage. But it's going to be up to these two key guys to deliver -- Keenan and Kiprusoff -- and I'm not at all convinced the can.

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07-19-2008, 05:43 PM
  #19
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I liked the flames last year better than this seasons squad. There are more holes IMHO, and I think they are in for a 9th - 11th place finish. Edmonton passes them this season.

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07-19-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana Murzyn View Post
I think the Flames season comes down to two people: Keenan and Kiprusoff.

Kiprusoff for obvious reasons. If the Flames want to get anywhere, he needs to return to form. I expect he'll have a bounce-back season, but I think the peak of his career is behind him (which I base on little more than my sincere hope as a Canuck fan.)

Keenan's case is more interesting. Personnel-wise, the Flames seem to be making an effort to return to the gritty, working class, defensive teams of coach Sutter's era. They had great success with this formula during their big run. But can Keenan coach a structured, defense-first style? I don't think he can. He's all about "gut" and "instinct" and riding his star players. He's from an altogether different era.

As far as I'm concerned, the Flames have a really solid line-up. They should be able to do some damage. But it's going to be up to these two key guys to deliver -- Keenan and Kiprusoff -- and I'm not at all convinced the can.
Six times he's coached teams that finished in the top 3 in GA in the league, twice with the lowest GA.

As for the flames, their offense will be more balanced this year than last, when they had an attrocious bottom 6. If you think they had no secondary scoring then...Kristian Huselius scored more goals last year than our entire bottom 6. Our Bottom 8 forwards scored as many as him. Huselius was third on the flames behind Iginla (50) and Langkow (30) with 25.

Their bottom six is greatly improved, from what was a terrible group last season. Conroy and Lombardi duke it out for the #2 and #3 C role. In a perfect world, Lombardi firmly establishes himself as the #2 centre, and Conroy settles into a third line of Bourque - Conroy - Glencross. Leaves a fourth line of Nystrom - Primeau - Prust/Andre Roy/Moss

The bottom six is now a decently offensive, quick group. Physical, pesky players who can gain and hold the zone and suck to play against.

If Bertuzzi maintains his health, there is no reason to believe he'll score less than 60 points on a line with Iginla. For 1.95 million, that's not bad. I don't believe Bertuzzi is the Nolan replacement.

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07-19-2008, 07:36 PM
  #21
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The Flames are doing exactly what we did last off season, adding useless 3rd, 4th liners. I'm not saying it's completely inadequate but are they headed for a similar season to what we had last season?
Useless compared to the Pylons and underachievers they bought out or got rid of from this past season? They improved their roster the moment they cut all those pylons from their roster.

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07-19-2008, 08:06 PM
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Dana Murzyn
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Six times he's coached teams that finished in the top 3 in GA in the league, twice with the lowest GA.
But wasn't that, like, 15 years ago? And with utterly stacked teams?

What have you seen lately that suggests Keenan is capable of coaching a tight, defensive system?

Like I said, I think the Flames line-up this year is really solid. But I think they've got a small question mark in goal, and a huge one behind the bench.

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07-19-2008, 10:50 PM
  #23
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Unless Bertuzzi has a complete reversal in form Calgary has weakened IMO

1. Bertuzzi's defense is very poor. Even in the good WCE years Bertuzzi payed scant attention to defense. He looked to outscore the other team and certainly not out-defend them. Really Bertuzzi without the puck can be a disaster. Also we have not seen the physical Bert since the Moore incident. Added to that you have the problems with Cammalleri on defense

2. Conroy - I don't like this player. Skating has very much fallen off in the last couple of years and he is no kind of offensive player. Points he does get are generated by line mates. At one point Conroy was a good defensive player but lack of speed and strength have diminished this aspect of his game. I think Calgary is just running out the string with Conroy. Good team spokesman but not much more effective than Linden was for the last couple of years

3. McElhinney - If Kipper goes down I don't see McElhinney as being any where close to taking on the load. Nor do I see him providing the type of goal-tending that can allow the Flames to rest up Kipper.

4. Aucoin and Vandermeer - both of these players can be absolute pylons on defense. Aucoin miraclously made it through a full season last year but given his history the odds are long he makes it through another one.

5. As mentioned non scoring after the first few players None of Primeau, Nilsson, Moss, Prust, Bourque or even Nystrom or Boyd can be counted on for consistent scoring

6. Loss of Yelle - play had fallen off andI can see why he might not be re-signed. However, without him Calgary lacks a proven 3rd or 4th line defensive center. ( and I don't see Conroy filling the bill)

Overall the system Calgary has relied upon is under question. Basically Calgary tried to play good defense, get good goaltending and then hope a few upper end player (especially Iginla) could chip in enough goals to win. But with the addition of Bertuzzi, Bourque and Cammalleri the team's defense should suffer. Whether their offense is actually improved is also questionable. Thus with a weaker defensive team and probably being no better offensively it is probable they will be weaker.

Calgary's biggest problem is that they have had no players moving out of their system that can take on a major role on the team. The other problem is that Calgary is absolutely dependent on Iginla. If he goes down then the playoff chances virtually are gone. Could say the same about a lot of players around the League, But in Calgary's case I think this is more obviously true.

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07-19-2008, 11:00 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Cammalleri is a below average skater, weak on the puck and a total non factor in his own zone. With that said a healthy Cammalleri is a very good offensive player and will give them another lethal shot on the pp to go with Iginla.
Maybe I'm mixing him up with O'Sullivan? Who's the smallish player on the Kings that's ultra fast?

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07-19-2008, 11:07 PM
  #25
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I'm worried about Calgary's lack of "youth movement" in the future, as whom the future of this team is when Iginla is gone. Backlund might fill the role but you have to have some other players fill the void. Iginla can't carry this team on his back forever, the scoring should spread out this season. The defense? I think it will be improved from the blue line...hard to say at this point.

Lets see if Kipper gets out of his early season laziness...which seems to handcuff him every year.

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