HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Calgary Flames
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Miikka Kiprusoff - Overrated or Under Appreciated?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-29-2008, 01:24 AM
  #76
Respect Your Edler
Thank You 52
 
Respect Your Edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: China
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,221
vCash: 500
Kipper didn't scare me last year, which is rare for him to be honest. I expect him to snap back into form next year. He's still a top 4 goalie IMO.

Respect Your Edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 01:31 AM
  #77
CRDragon
\_(シ)_/
 
CRDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,782
vCash: 500
very overrated...
mind u..the fact...luongo's stat three years ago he was still in Florida.

comparing luongo is best because they are in same division and have same oppositions.
an dclearly...Luongo > Kiprusoff stat wise...even when luongo was not at his best last season.

__________________
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) BUT AT WHAT COST!!! ノ 益)ノ 彡 ʇsoɔ ʇɐɥʍ ʇɐ ʇnq
CRDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 01:36 AM
  #78
kruezer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 500
Kipper had a terrible start to the season last year to be sure, hopefully this year he can come in to camp ready to go, he was his usual self from January on last year I thought. And aside from debacle of game three (which I do not blame him for) he was good in the playoffs as well.

kruezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 11:04 AM
  #79
Cactus Jack
Registered User
 
Cactus Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 2,912
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Cactus Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada View Post
If the Flames did not have anything but a backup goalie they may not have made it but as far as first string goalies go, he was ordinary. He did not play anywhere near to his best. If he did, they probably get past SJ at least.
I think it's so unfair to base a team's success on one guy. Kipper needed to be better but to say he was why we lost the first round is ridiculous. Why is no one blaming it on all the undisciplined play and the dozens of penalties we took? What about always being badly outshot, outchanced and outplayed? What about the lack of committment to team defense and back checking? What about the inability to score? What about inconsistency?

Maybe people need to see it this way to - if the team helped Kiprusoff out then maybe they would have advanced to the next round.

Cactus Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 11:14 AM
  #80
bam09
Registered User
 
bam09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
Are you serious? For a long stretch last season, it was Kipper's play that held the Flames in a playoff spot. Regardless of his average season, it would have been worse without him.
And for most of the season Kipper's play was awful, and we were lucky our offense was clicking.

How is 28th and 30th placed stats behind tons of journeymen, considered an average season? Every goalie has a good stretch, at some point not just Kiprusoff.

I would have liked to see what another goalie could have done. An inspired goalie.

bam09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 02:09 PM
  #81
PhaneufsEnough3
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Cali
Country: United States
Posts: 88
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
I think it's so unfair to base a team's success on one guy. Kipper needed to be better but to say he was why we lost the first round is ridiculous. Why is no one blaming it on all the undisciplined play and the dozens of penalties we took? What about always being badly outshot, outchanced and outplayed? What about the lack of committment to team defense and back checking? What about the inability to score? What about inconsistency?

Maybe people need to see it this way to - if the team helped Kiprusoff out then maybe they would have advanced to the next round.


thank you! finally someone isnt blaming one person for a team sport.

you win together, you lose together.

PhaneufsEnough3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 02:25 PM
  #82
ComixZone
Registered User
 
ComixZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,725
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=bam09;14997639]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Cool View Post
Kipper took too much flak last year in my eyes. Our defense backed up to the crease all season long and just let players walk in and have their way with Kipper, also our forwards were rarely found backchecking.[/QUOTE}

He deserved all the flak he got. If you pay someone to be one of the premier goalies, and he plays like awful, it relays back to him. Our defense wasn't as good last year, but Kiprusoff didn't show the form we payed for. Elite players find ways to get the job done. He didn't.



No I think Kipper found out he had his job safely secured and that his offense could now bail him sometimes(unlike his 2 best years 04 and 05). He played better when Joseph was picked up, but when he found out he was still gonna keep his job no questions asked he slumped again. As I said elite players, find ways to achieve greatness. He didn't. 28th in GAA. Behind the likes of Khabibulin and Theodore who are both considered not worth anything near there contract. Why is Kiprusoff any different? Lives off his reputation. 30th in SV%, but top 5 in goaltender contracts. Something doesn't add up. Our defense wasn't horrible, or at least bad enough to warrent that kind of play from an "elite" goaltender. He's not elite, last season proved it.



You can't be considered or payed like an elite goaltender, if your play depends on your team. It might hurt your numbers, but not like what happened to Kiprusoff. Elite goalies find ways to steal games. He didn't.
Well, your entire arguement seems based off his salary...well..his salary was just over 3 million last year, so if that's your arguement - he overachieved.

Our defense was probably the 3rd worse in the league (ATL and TBags being worse). No backchecking, our d was giveaway prone, too slow and couldn't make a breakout pass to save their life.

You would have liked to have seen what an inspired goalie would have done? I think you have a large misunderstanding of the goaltending position. Do you truly believe that having 3 different styles of play go on in front of you over the last 3 seasons doesn't effect Kipper's play? Also, if your entire roster (except maybe Iginla) don't show up for half of the games, why should Kipper be any different?

In the playoffs, I truly only blame Kipper for one goal - the 1st roenick goal in game 7 (the extremely weak shot from the point that went in five-hole). It was a truly 'team deflating' goal, but you can't blame kipper for what happened next though...


Last edited by ComixZone: 07-29-2008 at 02:30 PM.
ComixZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2008, 11:59 PM
  #83
abracanada
Registered User
 
abracanada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
I think it's so unfair to base a team's success on one guy. Kipper needed to be better but to say he was why we lost the first round is ridiculous. Why is no one blaming it on all the undisciplined play and the dozens of penalties we took? What about always being badly outshot, outchanced and outplayed? What about the lack of committment to team defense and back checking? What about the inability to score? What about inconsistency?

Maybe people need to see it this way to - if the team helped Kiprusoff out then maybe they would have advanced to the next round.
Goaltenders are the biggest difference makers on the team. They can make a strong team look bad, and a bad team look good. They are key to a teams success. Before Kiprusoff came along, the Flames could do nothing right in spite of having an Iginla or Regehr. All of a sudden, with the addition of Kiprusoff, that team that could do nothing right ended up in the Stanley Cup finals. You could claim that Sutter and his coaching were the reason for success, but the fact is, he coached the team the year before to no avail.

If Kipper performs to the level he is being paid, the Flames will be contenders once again. If not, there will be a lot more to complain about.

abracanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2008, 02:29 AM
  #84
ArizonaGreenTea
Registered User
 
ArizonaGreenTea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada View Post
Goaltenders are the biggest difference makers on the team. They can make a strong team look bad, and a bad team look good. They are key to a teams success. Before Kiprusoff came along, the Flames could do nothing right in spite of having an Iginla or Regehr. All of a sudden, with the addition of Kiprusoff, that team that could do nothing right ended up in the Stanley Cup finals. You could claim that Sutter and his coaching were the reason for success, but the fact is, he coached the team the year before to no avail..
Sutter was hired in January, well after the team's playoff hopes were already in the toilet. When Sutter became GM he made several moves that put the 03/04 team well ahead of the previous season's team too. In fact, his ability to bring in quality players considered to be on the fringe in his first season inspired the phrase "In Sutter we trust", something which many Flames fans still quote today.

Who knows though? That team in his first full year as coach had many difficulties, including a starter who for almost 15 games played with a broken sternum, why? Because he was far better off than anybody who would have relieved him. Good goaltending was very important that year but Kipprusoff only played half the season, he didn't wear down the Wings and the Sharks to the point of submission. He just goaltended half the year and through the playoffs. The team in front of him, because of their coaching, played far beyond their level. That Flames team had games stolen for them, which was fantastic, but they also had games stolen from them from goaltenders on teams, which on paper should have dominated them for the full sixty minutes. McClennan won 12 games and lost 7 (tied 3) as a starter for the team, average that out over a season and the team still would've made the playoffs, hell they would've won the division with McClennan's win percentage. I will concede, Kipprusoff was a huge reason for the success of the team that year and they would've been hard pressed, with all the injury problems, to make it to the playoffs without him but to state that the team rode his back into the playoffs is disingenuous. He was a spark for the team's success but when he missed two months, that team still carried on without him. That team that could do nothing right disappeared once Sutter put his mark on the organization through coaching, trades and signings, Kipprusoff was only a part of the puzzle.

Edit: To imply that Iginla and Regher, by themselves, could make it is asinine. Why don't we suggest that Detroit surround Zetterberg, Lidstrom and say Turco (let's give em something besides Osgood) with AHL players? They should be able to make the playoffs with that troika of talent. Kipprusoff was the catalyst the team needed to get out of their seven year funk but without the other moves or the coaching system he would've been an average/above average goaltender on a bad team.

Now, going back to the save percentage stat. McClennan's save percentage in NY was bottom of the league material, in Calgary it was mediocre. I will rescind my comment about save percentage being negatively affected by a bad defense, it seems that some goaltenders actually have their save percentages, and their perceived value, increase if they play on a team with a worse defense, while some have their save percentages decrease if the defense in front of them falls off the boat. A good goaltender doesn't necessarily need to have a bad defense in front to prove himself, since the lack of a good defense in front can be both a catalyst for improvement or stagnation, same as a change to a good defense. Save percentage is a reflection of the goaltender's compatibility with the roster and system (as well as ability, duh) but that compatibility does not necessarily imply that the team the goaltender is on is any good defensively.

It's still a team stat, to an extent. It's just hard to calculate because a goaltender's motivation, ability and character are all challenged or brought out in different ways depending on the team they're with. Roloson's sv% drops when moving to Edmonton, Bryzgalov's improves. Some goaltenders you put a good defense in front of and they're Vezina material, others let in soft goals and bring a good team down until you take away that protection. Kipprusoff is of the former, a good defense can cater to his strengths and limit exposure to his weaknesses, it also would give him more freedom to play within his own rules, instead of taking the wrong risks or not taking one at all when one was needed.

Another Flame who suffered the same fate was Roman Turek, the guy posted in his career season a .912, and a .915 the year before as the starter for the Blues and the backup for the Stars, respectively (both above average quality, respective to the season played). Both teams with high quality defenses. He moves to Calgary and his seasons ranged from .900 to .905 (very poor quality). There was one exception, where he posted .914 (average quality) in the 03/04 season, behind a team with a solid defense.

I also stand by my point, Giguere's stats put him as a top three, he's more like a 7th/8th. His stats overvalue him and a five point difference in a league with only 30 starters is pretty dramatic. I'm not overrating Kipprusoff, he performed below expectations but to imply that he was supported by even an average defense is laughable.


Last edited by ArizonaGreenTea: 07-30-2008 at 03:02 AM.
ArizonaGreenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2008, 11:20 AM
  #85
Cactus Jack
Registered User
 
Cactus Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 2,912
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Cactus Jack
This team wouldn't qualify for the playoffs or go as far as they did with McLennan or Turek. McLennan did a heroic job of keeping this team in the chase with that injury but McLennan is not a goalie that can play that many games, nor is Turek capable of having that good of a streak for that long. Kiprusoff was the catalyst and without that trade we would never still be talking about 2004.

Cactus Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2008, 12:54 PM
  #86
ArizonaGreenTea
Registered User
 
ArizonaGreenTea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
This team wouldn't qualify for the playoffs or go as far as they did with McLennan or Turek. McLennan did a heroic job of keeping this team in the chase with that injury but McLennan is not a goalie that can play that many games, nor is Turek capable of having that good of a streak for that long. Kiprusoff was the catalyst and without that trade we would never still be talking about 2004.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Comedian View Post
I will concede, Kipprusoff was a huge reason for the success of the team that year and they would've been hard pressed, with all the injury problems, to make it to the playoffs without him but to state that the team rode his back into the playoffs is disingenuous. Kipprusoff was the catalyst the team needed to get out of their seven year funk but without the other moves or the coaching system he would've been an average/above average goaltender on a bad team.
I was making a point, not a half assed claim...

ArizonaGreenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 12:09 AM
  #87
abracanada
Registered User
 
abracanada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Comedian View Post
I was making a point, not a half assed claim...

It really gets to be quite simple. 2004 Flames with Kiprusoff, were a finalist for the cup. Without Kiprusoff? Don't even make the playoffs.

You can hypothesize all you want, but it all boils down to a half assed claim. The only reason the Flames went where they did, was because of Kiprusoff. That doesn't mean he was the only member of the team, just the most important.

abracanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 01:37 AM
  #88
ArizonaGreenTea
Registered User
 
ArizonaGreenTea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada View Post
It really gets to be quite simple. 2004 Flames with Kiprusoff, were a finalist for the cup. Without Kiprusoff? Don't even make the playoffs.

You can hypothesize all you want, but it all boils down to a half assed claim. The only reason the Flames went where they did, was because of Kiprusoff. That doesn't mean he was the only member of the team, just the most important.
You should proof read your posts. Six sentences and you can't avoid contradicting yourself. Hell, you condescend me for hypothesizing, something I didn't even do in my post, yet you do the very same thing.

ArizonaGreenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 03:45 PM
  #89
abracanada
Registered User
 
abracanada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Comedian View Post
You should proof read your posts. Six sentences and you can't avoid contradicting yourself. Hell, you condescend me for hypothesizing, something I didn't even do in my post, yet you do the very same thing.
No contradictions there my friend.

abracanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 04:31 PM
  #90
Luongo4VP
 
Luongo4VP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: India
Posts: 1,436
vCash: 500
He had an off-year, he is still Top 10-15 in the league.

Luongo4VP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:06 PM
  #91
Snoil11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,336
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Snoil11 Send a message via Yahoo to Snoil11
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
He had an off-year, he is still Top 10-15 in the league.
Even with last year's performance, he was among the top 15 in the league, so may I extract from your words, that you expect him to have another off-year next season?

P.S.: Please, do not post the same GAA, S% and SO-statistics from last season again. I know, that he ranked far below 15, but you have to bring up something more persuasive to change my mind on this topic.

Snoil11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:08 PM
  #92
ArizonaGreenTea
Registered User
 
ArizonaGreenTea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoil11 View Post
Even with last year's performance, he was among the top 15 in the league, so may I extract from your words, that you expect him to have another off-year next season?

P.S.: Please, do not post the same GAA, S% and SO-statistics from last season again. I know, that he ranked far below 15, but you have to bring up something more persuasive to change my mind on this topic.
The Flames' defense was at least average.

ArizonaGreenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:22 PM
  #93
Ticonderoga
Undercover agent
 
Ticonderoga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Westminster
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,506
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
He had an off-year, he is still Top 10-15 in the league.
No that I mind you actully contributing to a discussion here, as it is always nice to see other fans opinions, but top 15? Me thinks you under estimate Kipper a wee bit. At this time last year he was considered top 3 and a all-world goalie, I don't think he slid that far in one year.

Ticonderoga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:30 PM
  #94
ArizonaGreenTea
Registered User
 
ArizonaGreenTea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
No that I mind you actully contributing to a discussion here, as it is always nice to see other fans opinions, but top 15? Me thinks you under estimate Kipper a wee bit. At this time last year he was considered top 3 and a all-world goalie, I don't think he slid that far in one year.
I'll cut him some slack, he probably was only considering last season's merits, which is fair if you do. I'd rank him just below the 15th mark for last year's performance.

ArizonaGreenTea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:35 PM
  #95
PhaneufsEnough3
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Cali
Country: United States
Posts: 88
vCash: 500
you cant gauge how good someone is based on one year... if that was the case then the hall of fame would have a lot more inductees

PhaneufsEnough3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 05:51 PM
  #96
Ticonderoga
Undercover agent
 
Ticonderoga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Westminster
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,506
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Comedian View Post
I'll cut him some slack, he probably was only considering last season's merits, which is fair if you do. I'd rank him just below the 15th mark for last year's performance.

I agree based off his numbers he looks like a top 15 goalie as they are not too pretty. Still most people know he is much better then that and if you look at his stats monthly you see a completly different picture. I remember when he broke a .900 SV/% last year and it took a fair bit of time and also alot of solid play to make up for his terrible start to last year.

Kipper has the ability to be a top 3 goalie and could put it together last season as well but lacked the consistency to do it for extender periods of time just like the rest of the team. I expect him to jump back to his previous form or I say trade him as he is far to expensive to not be performing up to par.


Last edited by Ticonderoga: 07-31-2008 at 05:57 PM.
Ticonderoga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 09:30 PM
  #97
Luongo4VP
 
Luongo4VP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: India
Posts: 1,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
No that I mind you actully contributing to a discussion here, as it is always nice to see other fans opinions, but top 15? Me thinks you under estimate Kipper a wee bit. At this time last year he was considered top 3 and a all-world goalie, I don't think he slid that far in one year.
I don't think he was Top 3 in 2006-2007, If I could rank him in 2006-2007.

1.Brodeur
2.Luongo
3.Turco
4.Lundqvist
5.Miller
6.Kiprusoff

Luongo4VP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2008, 10:48 PM
  #98
PhaneufsEnough3
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Cali
Country: United States
Posts: 88
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
I don't think he was Top 3 in 2006-2007, If I could rank him in 2006-2007.

1.Brodeur
2.Luongo
3.Turco
4.Lundqvist
5.Miller
6.Kiprusoff
i dunno... i agree with the first 2 picks, but turco through kipper is not right.

PhaneufsEnough3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2008, 10:35 PM
  #99
Ticonderoga
Undercover agent
 
Ticonderoga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Westminster
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,506
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
I don't think he was Top 3 in 2006-2007, If I could rank him in 2006-2007.

1.Brodeur
2.Luongo
3.Turco
4.Lundqvist
5.Miller
6.Kiprusoff
Nope he was. I think he was 3rd in Veznia votes and he just came off winning the Veznia and the Jennings the year before.

Ticonderoga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2008, 10:31 AM
  #100
Lunatik*
 
Lunatik*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lethbridge
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
Nope he was. I think he was 3rd in Veznia votes and he just came off winning the Veznia and the Jennings the year before.
he got nominated by sheer reputation... he was not great the first half of the season and only had middle of the pack numbers... Kipper WAS NOT a top 3 goalie in 06/07

Lunatik* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.