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Miikka Kiprusoff - Overrated or Under Appreciated?

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Old
08-02-2008, 11:07 AM
  #101
Ticonderoga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
he got nominated by sheer reputation... he was not great the first half of the season and only had middle of the pack numbers... Kipper WAS NOT a top 3 goalie in 06/07
Edit: I figure that you could make a strong case for both sides on this issue but for the sake of avoiding a pointless argue lets just agree to disagre.


Last edited by Ticonderoga: 08-02-2008 at 02:57 PM.
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08-02-2008, 05:19 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
Edit: I figure that you could make a strong case for both sides on this issue but for the sake of avoiding a pointless argue lets just agree to disagre.
what case is there for Kipper being top 3 in 06/07?

being tied for 3rd in wins? 12th in GAA? 9th in sv%? tied for 3rd in shutouts (with a guy who played 24 fewer games)? he was far from being a top 3 goaltender... there is no case that can be made otherwise if you look at that season as an individual one

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08-02-2008, 06:23 PM
  #103
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Kipper was top 10 that year, but not Top 3

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08-04-2008, 06:03 AM
  #104
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[QUOTE=JT Cool;15020950]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post

Our defense was probably the 3rd worse in the league (ATL and TBags being worse). No backchecking, our d was giveaway prone, too slow and couldn't make a breakout pass to save their life.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a troll, but do you actually think that Calgary's defence was in the bottom 3? I hate the flames and all but that is just ridicuous, do you really believe the Oilers were better last year on the defencive end, or a large number of other teams? The Flames were probably in the top 10 in defencive play last year imo, and Kiprusoff wasn't exactly saving the team. Though I do agree about the slowness and breakout pass, Giordano should help that.

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08-05-2008, 11:37 AM
  #105
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[QUOTE=TheOilersRule;15069318]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Cool View Post


I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a troll, but do you actually think that Calgary's defence was in the bottom 3? I hate the flames and all but that is just ridicuous, do you really believe the Oilers were better last year on the defencive end, or a large number of other teams? The Flames were probably in the top 10 in defencive play last year imo, and Kiprusoff wasn't exactly saving the team. Though I do agree about the slowness and breakout pass, Giordano should help that.
Dude, I'd rank there D last year more around 15th. Look how many shots they gave up, how bad their pk was and how poor their defensive coverage and backchecking were. The flames' team D was horrible last year. Phaneuf was the only one capable of carrying the puck out of his zone or making good breakout passes. As happy as I am to see Giordano back, the D hasn't changed and I don't expect them to be much better. They're not horrible but they're not elite either.

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08-06-2008, 11:54 AM
  #106
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"Calgary suffers from goaltending delusions. The Flames remember Kiprusoff as he was. His goals against average (the second most useless statistic in hockey) is trimmed by good defensive play. His play has been going downhill for a couple of years now."

"The leaders in defensive shot quality were Columbus, Minnesota and Calgary. The latter two teams repeat near the top of the list".

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...NHL_Review.pdf

The flames were 13th in shots against and 3rd in shot quality (the shots they allowed were easier to save). Overall this gives them the 5th highest defensive index in the league according to Alan Ryder's metric.


Last edited by imkinger: 08-06-2008 at 12:01 PM.
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08-06-2008, 05:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
"Calgary suffers from goaltending delusions. The Flames remember Kiprusoff as he was. His goals against average (the second most useless statistic in hockey) is trimmed by good defensive play. His play has been going downhill for a couple of years now."

"The leaders in defensive shot quality were Columbus, Minnesota and Calgary. The latter two teams repeat near the top of the list".

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...NHL_Review.pdf

The flames were 13th in shots against and 3rd in shot quality (the shots they allowed were easier to save). Overall this gives them the 5th highest defensive index in the league according to Alan Ryder's metric.
does his arbitrary formula take into account thing like the puck hitting the defenseman's skate and going in and such?... nto that some arbitrary formula really makes a difference

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08-07-2008, 04:21 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
does his arbitrary formula take into account thing like the puck hitting the defenseman's skate and going in and such?...
Nope, it does not and after taking a short look at his shot quality methodology, there is way more to question.

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08-07-2008, 11:14 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
what case is there for Kipper being top 3 in 06/07?

being tied for 3rd in wins? 12th in GAA? 9th in sv%? tied for 3rd in shutouts (with a guy who played 24 fewer games)? he was far from being a top 3 goaltender... there is no case that can be made otherwise if you look at that season as an individual one
Ok like I said before, you could make a case for and against, if you don't think he was then good for you I could care less.

Fact remains he was 3rd in wins, 3rd in shutouts and had a % and GAA that were pretty good considering the "problems" we had that year such as our fantastic road record and defensive problems till we acquired Stuart. Of course I am crazy and know nothing right? Kipper being 3rd in Veznia voting is a bunk claim due to his "reputation"? What the hell is that? Also who can forget his superhuman play in the playoffs that year vs Detroit he took us virtually alone to a 6 games series and gave us a chance to win some games. Sorry I think differently then you on this but from what I remember and from what most GM and media remember he most certainly was in top 3 form, but I respect your opinion as most of us do so lets just agree to disagree.

Now not so much I must say.


Last edited by Ticonderoga: 08-07-2008 at 11:27 AM.
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Old
08-07-2008, 01:10 PM
  #110
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[QUOTE=Cactus Jack;15079658]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOilersRule View Post

Dude, I'd rank there D last year more around 15th. Look how many shots they gave up, how bad their pk was and how poor their defensive coverage and backchecking were. The flames' team D was horrible last year. Phaneuf was the only one capable of carrying the puck out of his zone or making good breakout passes. As happy as I am to see Giordano back, the D hasn't changed and I don't expect them to be much better. They're not horrible but they're not elite either.
You also have to remember that the flames Defence was adapting to a new coach and sometimes that isn't easy especially since they were all used to an intense trap, there defence nearing the end of the season vastly improved IMO and i think you'll see a much more stingey D core.
And A little more on topic Kiprusoff is training this off season. Don't know if that means anything to you guys but he isnt coming to camp a fat tub of lard again this year.
And another note about our team we picked up some forwards this off season who i think might actually think about back checking That should help with our horrid defensive zone coverage... Hopefully

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08-07-2008, 09:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
but I respect your opinion as most of us do so lets just agree to disagree.

Now not so much I must say.
thats fine... i've been disrespected by much better posters than you

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08-07-2008, 10:09 PM
  #112
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Luongo, Kipper, Brodeur, they all have had slow starts in recent years and they are the top 3 goalies in the league in no particular order. Let's hope that Keenan's goalie fiasco doesn't come to Calgary and push him out.

Kipper is underrated by most fans after last season (an off season) not overrated.

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08-08-2008, 12:52 PM
  #113
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Disclaimer: I'm a Canucks fan, through and through. That being said, whenever the Flames aren't playing the 'nucks, I'm cheering for them - I love Calgary, great city.



As far as rating goaltenders.. I'd put Kiprusoff at between #5 and #8.

He had a fantastic season in '05, yes. Since then he's played 150 games and his GAA/sv% is 2.57 and 0.912 (378goals/8817minutes/4286shots). I know stats aren't everything, but Calgary's had a pretty decent team and defense both years - good enough to make the playoffs.

Top goalies don't have to put up top statistics and vice versa - obviously Osgood isn't the best goalie in the league but he did have the best GAA - but to say Kiprusoff is a top 3 goalie (as some have) when his GAA/sv% was 26th and 28th respectively, on a pretty good team?



Put it like this: If every goalie in the league was the same age and had the same contract, who would you RATHER have? Personally, I'd take Luongo, Brodeur, Lundqvist, Turco, and POSSIBLY Giguere/DiPietro/Fleury.

I hope Keenan doesn't ruin him

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Old
08-12-2008, 01:12 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
The Red Wings defense is great, but a big reason why they always look so great, is also because they have their forwards coming back to help. The same can't always be said for the Flames, and last season I thought it was very noticable and it made the defense look worse than it really is. They look solid when they get help from the forwards, and we saw that in games like the one after Regehr called out his teammates for not coming back to help the defense.
Well we got rid of the defensive plugs (ie-Huselius and Tanguay) So maybe that will help our defense..... hopefully

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08-12-2008, 01:15 AM
  #115
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For this tread to all the people who think Kipper is overrated... Who would you prefer we put in net? Joesph?

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08-12-2008, 01:35 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
And for most of the season Kipper's play was awful, and we were lucky our offense was clicking.
How many times are you going to write the same thing in this thread? Everybody knows your opinion so why donīt you stop that spamming?

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08-12-2008, 02:08 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by OvetchkinSOS View Post
Well we got rid of the defensive plugs (ie-Huselius and Tanguay) So maybe that will help our defense..... hopefully
Unbelievable, Tanguay was great defensively. The dude had nothing wrong with him besides the fact that he just didn't want to be getting 2nd line minutes and didn't want to play here. Well, that and not shooting the puck.

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08-12-2008, 11:27 AM
  #118
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I'm a little worried about the defensive play of the forwards we've acquired. I think Bourque is a good defensive player but I worry about the defensive abilities of guys like Bertuzzi, Cammalleri, Glencross and Roy (although I don't expect anything from Roy in his own zone). I don't think they are any better defensively than the guys we let go, let alone Tanguay, although SOME of them will play harder and more physically but that doesn't necessarily translate into defensive play. At least guys like Boyd and Nystrom, who will see more ice time, are defensively responsible.

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08-14-2008, 12:03 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Calgary Highlander View Post
Unbelievable, Tanguay was great defensively. The dude had nothing wrong with him besides the fact that he just didn't want to be getting 2nd line minutes and didn't want to play here. Well, that and not shooting the puck.
No he wasn't - he improved his defensive game. Yes, he got PK time but our PK sucked.

Our team defense was terrible last year and we had one of the worst bottom 3 defenders in the league last year. They couldn't make a breakout pass, they were ungodly slow. It was painful to watch. Our forwards rarely backchecked.

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08-16-2008, 11:05 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
I'm a little worried about the defensive play of the forwards we've acquired. I think Bourque is a good defensive player but I worry about the defensive abilities of guys like Bertuzzi, Cammalleri, Glencross and Roy (although I don't expect anything from Roy in his own zone). I don't think they are any better defensively than the guys we let go, let alone Tanguay, although SOME of them will play harder and more physically but that doesn't necessarily translate into defensive play. At least guys like Boyd and Nystrom, who will see more ice time, are defensively responsible.

I somewhat agree, because I wouldn't classify Bert or Cammy as good two way players. I think they are both better than Huselius but that isn't saying much. I personally like Glencross' two way play.
However, I think the players we've acquired are faster, much of the problem for me last year were the Nolans, Nilson, Yelle, Primeau's who are just too slow to be good two way players in this league, as well as show a desire. I agree that I dont' think the players acquired are great in defensive abilities, but I think they are at least faster enough and smart enough to buy in to two way play. Last year we had alot of players that were smart two way players, but were too slow and not physical enough to execute it. Now I think the players they have can execute much better than last.

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08-16-2008, 02:07 PM
  #121
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No he wasn't - he improved his defensive game. Yes, he got PK time but our PK sucked.
For a guy that was ragged on- when he was with the Avs- for not having much of a defensive game, Tanguay was fantastic. He was the third (and you could make a case for second) most complete forward on the team.

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08-16-2008, 02:14 PM
  #122
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For a guy that was ragged on- when he was with the Avs- for not having much of a defensive game, Tanguay was fantastic. He was the third (and you could make a case for second) most complete forward on the team.
Just to chime in here with some numbers:

Alex Tanguay played the toughest minutes among all Calgary players with a +0.07 QUALCOMP rating and had a 2.32 GA/60, the lower among players who played against plus competition. He was on for the third best 5v5 goals-for to goals-against ratio on the team (+17) and was third among forwards in +/-, first among all left-wingers, with a +11 rating. All that averaging the third most minutes among forwards on the team and in an off-year as far as offense goes.

The numbers don't support any argument that Tanguay was a liability or anything other then an above-average to stellar two-way player.

That is all.

EDIT: And Glencross is an exceptional two-way player in softer minutes.

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