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HOH Top 100: Aggregate List

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07-28-2008, 08:12 PM
  #1
FissionFire
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HOH Top 100: Aggregate List

Here is the aggregate list compiled from the 26 approved lists which were submitted. This is the list used to determine what order players would be eligible for voting.

Pts is the total aggregate score for the player
100Rank is the ranking of the player on the final Top 100 list
Diff is the difference in ranking between the aggregate and the final Top 100 list

Aggregate List
RankPtsPlayerPos100RankDiff
13099Wayne GretzkyC10
23092Bobby OrrD20
33076Gordie HoweRW30
43053Mario LemieuxC40
52968Maurice RichardRW6-1
62967Bobby HullLW5+1
72961Eddie ShoreD70
82939Jean BeliveauC80
92918Doug HarveyD90
102809Jacques PlanteG12-2
112806Ray BourqueD110
122742Guy LafleurRW15-3
132681Howie MorenzC10+3
142680Patrick RoyG16-2
152679Stan MikitaC14+1
162668Denis PotvinD17-1
172636Terry SawchukG19-2
182630Phil EspositoC20-2
192601Dominik HasekG13+6
202589Mark MessierC24-4
212555Glenn HallG210
222551Red KellyD18+4
232544Ted LindsayLW230
242509Bobby ClarkeC22+2
252502Mike BossyRW27-2
262408Jaromir JagrRW25+1
272401Nicklas LidstromD26+1
282346Larry RobinsonD32-4
292335Bryan TrottierC28+1
302254Steve YzermanC36-6
312225Valeri KharlamovLW30+1
322212Ken DrydenG37-5
332203Milt SchmidtC31+2
342184Joe SakicC33+1
352174Newsy LalondeC29+6
362054Martin BrodeurG34+2
372033Viacheslav FetisovD35+2
382030Chris CheliosD42-4
392009Bernard GeoffrionRW390
401989Charlie ConacherRW45-5
411935Brad ParkD40+1
421869Frank MahovlichLW49-7
431868Bill DurnanG44-1
441861Paul CoffeyD46-2
451850Syl Apps, Sr.C38+7
461813Marcel DionneC48-2
471760Cyclone TaylorC41+6
481721Tim HortonD58-10
491697Bill CookRW43+6
501656Dit ClapperRW/D53-3
511648Joe MaloneC50+1
521630Dickie MooreLW55-3
531627Henri RichardC57-4
541588Pierre PiloteD51+3
551568Max BentleyC46+9
561567Brett HullRW67-11
571526Vladislav TretiakG52+5
581522Walter "Turk" BrodaG60-2
591521Jari KurriRW63-4
601496King ClancyD53+7
611461Andy BathgateRW56+5
621301Bernie ParentG81-19
631254Frank BoucherC59+4
641251Cy DennenyLW65-1
651208Al MacInnisD64+1
661193Earl SeibertD61+5
671191Ted KennedyC72-5
681150Aurel JoliatLW69-1
691127Peter StastnyC73-4
701120Scott StevensD92-22
711115Nels StewartC66+5
721111Johnny BucykLW87-15
731110Peter ForsbergC74-1
741098Clint BenedictG62+12
751093Elmer LachC76-1
761090Johnny BowerG75+1
771071Gilbert PerreaultC85-8
781058Sprague CleghornD69+9
79990Frank BrimsekG71+8
80966Boris MikhailovRW68+12
81952Sergei FedorovC80+1
82928George HainsworthG81+1
83886Hector "Toe" BlakeLW79+4
84883Bill CowleyC78+6
85865Brian LeetchD100-15
86805Dave KeonC87-1
87793Ron FrancisC94-7
88773Serge SavardD98-10
89750Sergei MakarovRW77+12
90726Borje SalmingD85+5
91723Billy SmithG--10
92712Bill GadsbyD83+9
93658Anatoli FirsovLW84+9
94635Chris ProngerD--7
95623Sid AbelC/LW93+2
96555Busher JacksonLW89+7
T-97553Charlie GardinerG91+6
T-97553Doug BentleyLW90+7
99552Norm UllmanC990
100538Alex DelvecchioC/LW96+4
101515Tony EspositoG--
102512Yvan CournoyerRW--
103494Bob GaineyLW--
104482Scott NiedermayerD--
105467Grant FuhrG--
106454Valeri VasilievD97+9
107448Frank NighborC95+12
108439Eric LindrosC--
109427Vsevolod BobrovRW--
110403Rod LangwayD--
111401Black Jack StewartD--
112396Georges VezinaG--
113392Mark HoweD--
114382Igor LarionovC--
115350Adam OatesC--
116345Guy LapointeD--
117340Teemu SelanneRW--
118312Babe DyeRW--
119305Jiri HolecekG--
120292Brendan ShanahanLW--
121262Doug GilmourC--
122243Lionel ConacherD--
123235Dale HawerchukC--
124215Luc RobitailleLW--
125214Bill QuackenbushD--
126211Ed BelfourG--
127205Denis SavardC--
128204Sweeny SchrinerLW--
129188Tiny ThompsonG--
130186Vaclav NedomanskyRW--
131179Butch BouchardD--
132177Georges BoucherD--
133163Jean RatelleC--
134158Jacques LaperriereD--
135156Cam NeelyRW--
136153Alexander MaltsevRW--
137151Pavel BureRW--
138138Pat LaFontaineC--
139124Darryl SittlerC--
140119Joe PrimeauC--
141115Babe PrattD--
142108Mike ModanoC--
143107Mike GartnerRW--
144102Larry MurphyD--
145100Alexei KasatonovD--
14696Tumba JohanssonC--
T-14792Vladimir PetrovC--
T-14792Lorne ChabotG--
T-14990Hap HolmesG--
T-14990Joe NieuwendykC--
15189Michel GouletLW--
15288Gump WorsleyG--
15381Russell BowieC--
15473Mats SundinC--
15572Jarome IginlaRW--
T-15666Jan SuchyD--
T-15666Harry CameronD--
T-15862Alexander MogilnyRW--
T-15862Marcel PronovostD--
16060Moose JohnsonD--
16157Mats NaslundLW--
16254Eddie GerardLW/D--
16353Jeremy RoenickC--
T-16451Ebbie GoodfellowC/D--
T-16451Guy CarbonneauC--
16649J.C. TremblayD--
16747Kent NilssonC--
16846Ken ReardonD--
16942Lennart SvedbergD--
T-17041Bill BoucherRW--
T-17041Harry LumleyG--
T-17239Hakan LoobRW--
T-17239Tom JohnsonD--
T-17239Joe ThorntonC--
T-17239Lanny McDonaldRW--
T-17638Peter LindmarkG--
T-17638Alexander RagulinD--
T-17638Ching JohnsonD--
17937Dave AndreychukLW--
18036Pelle LindberghG--
T-18135Rob BlakeD--
T-18135Glenn AndersonRW--
18334Phil HousleyD--
18433Claude ProvostRW--
18532Brian ProppLW--
T-18631Vladimir MartinecRW--
T-18631Hod StuartD--
T-18631Vladimir KonstantinovD--
18930Markus NaslundLW--
T-19028Frank FredricksonC--
T-19028Eddie GiacominG--
T-19028Alexander YakushevLW--
T-19327Sidney CrosbyC--
T-19327Joe MullenRW--
T-19526Roy ConacherLW--
T-19526Hugh LehmanG--
T-19725Woody DumartLW--
T-19725Mickey MacKayC--
T-19725Didier PitreRW/D--
20024Alex ConnellG--
T-20122Bert OlmsteadLW--
T-20122Frantisek PospisilD--
T-20122Joe SimpsonD--
T-20421Vladimir KrutovLW--
T-20421Marty BarryC--
T-20421Paul ThompsonLW--
20720Bill MosienkoRW--
T-20819Punch BroadbentRW--
T-20819Paul KariyaLW--
T-20819Steve LarmerRW--
21118Anders HedbergRW--
21216Milan NovyC--
T-21314Frank FoystonC/RW--
T-21314Ernie RussellC--
T-21314Steve ShuttLW--
T-21613Gary RobertsLW--
T-21613Roy WortersG--
T-21812Bill BarberLW--
T-21812Zigmund PalffyRW--
T-21812Mark RecchiRW--
T-22111Willy LindstromRW--
T-22111Frank McGeeC--
T-22111Mike VernonG--
T-22410Lester PatrickD--
T-22410Sergei ZubovD--
2269Craig RamsayLW--
T-2278Dick IrvinC--
T-2278Jacques LemaireC--
T-2278Kevin StevensLW--
T-2307Jack DarraghRW--
T-2307Brad McCrimmonD--
T-2307Alexander OvechkinLW--
T-2307Duke KeatsC--
T-2346Neil ColvilleD--
T-2346Doug WilsonD--
2365Mike RichterG--
T-2374Harry HowellD--
T-2374Art RossD--
T-2393Gordie DrillonLW--
T-2393Felix PotvinG--
T-2393Tod SloanC--
T-2422Bryan HextallRW--
T-2422Claude LemieuxRW--
T-2422Dutch ReibelC--
T-2451Tommy DunderdaleC--
T-2451Adam FooteD--

The players who made the largest climb up the list:
+12: Clint Benedict, Sergei Makarov, Boris Mikhailhov, Frank Nighbor
+9: Max Bentley, Sprague Cleghorn, Anatoli Firsov, Bill Gadsby, Valeri Vasiliev
+8: Frank Brimsek

The players who dropped the furthest down the list:
-22: Scott Stevens
-19: Bernie Parent
-15: Johnny Bucyk, Brian Leetch

The lowest rated player to appear on all the lists:
75th: Elmer Lach
61st: Andy Bathgate
59th: Jari Kurri

The highest rated player not to appear on all the lists:
29th: Bryan Trottier
44th: Paul Coffey
45th: Syl Apps, Sr.

The highest standard deviation for a player:
30.28: Anatoli Firsov
30.15: Clint Benedict
28.80: Vladislav Tretiak

The lowest standard deviation for a player:
0.64: Mario Lemieux
0.84: Gordie Howe
0.94: Wayne Gretzky

The highest standard deviation for a player appearing on all lists:
21.06: Martin Brodeur
19.99: Viacheslav Fetisov
18.52: Joe Malone

The lowest standard deviation for players outside of the top 10:
4.01: Ray Bourque
4.53: Stan Mikita
4.94: Denis Potvin

Anyone who wishes a copy of the aggregate list Microsoft Excel spreadsheet please submit a written request via email to hohtop100@yahoo.com

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07-29-2008, 12:10 AM
  #2
Kyle McMahon
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The name that stood out most to me in terms of being underrated was Ching Johnson, at T-176. I had him at 86 on my list. What surprises me is that he played his entire career post-1926, so competition issues shouldn't really come into play.

Craig Ramsay and Brad McCrimmon were two names I certainly didn't expect to see, especially the former. Not disagreeing, since I haven't heard arguments, just surprised. Was the list with Ramsay also the one (or possibly two or three?) with Provost and Carbonneau?

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07-29-2008, 01:05 AM
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kmad
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Who the hell voted for Felix Potvin?

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07-29-2008, 03:55 AM
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I'd like to show the top ten - at every position - that didn't make the list. Rank indicates ranking on the aggregate list, not the top 100 list.

Left Wingers
Player Rank
Bob Gainey 103
Brendan Shanahan 120
Luc Robitaille 124
Sweeney Schriner 128
Michel Goulet 151
Mats Näslund 161
Eddie Gerard (also D) 162
Dave Andreychuk 179
Brian Propp 185
Markus Näslund 189
Number of players in the 101-150 range: 4

Centers
Player Rank
Eric Lindros 108
Igor Larionov 114
Adam Oates 115
Doug Gilmour 121
Dale Hawerchuk 123
Denis Savard 127
Jean Ratelle 133
Pat LaFontaine 138
Darryl Sittler 139
Joe Primeau 140
Number of players in the 101-150 range: 14

Right Wingers
Player Rank
Yvan Cournoyer 102
Vsevolod Bobrov 109
Teemu Selänne 117
Babe Dye 118
Vaclav Nedomansky 130
Cam Neely 135
Alexander Maltsev 136
Pavel Bure 137
Mike Gartner 143
Jarome Iginla 155
Number of players in the 101-150 range: 9

Defensemen
Player Rank
Chris Pronger 94
Scott Niedermayer 104
Rod Langway 110
Jack Stewart 111
Mark Howe 113
Guy Lapointe 116
Lionel Conacher 122
Bill Quackenbush 125
Butch Bouchard 131
George Boucher 132
Number of players in the 101-150 range: 13

Goaltenders
Player Rank
Billy Smith 91
Tony Esposito 101
Grant Fuhr 105
Georges Vezina 112
Jiri Holecek 119
Ed Belfour 126
Tiny Thompson 129
Lorne Chabot T-147
Hap Holmes T-149
Gump Worsley 152
Number of players in the 101-150 range: 8

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07-29-2008, 07:16 AM
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ck26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The name that stood out most to me in terms of being underrated was Ching Johnson, at T-176. I had him at 86 on my list. What surprises me is that he played his entire career post-1926, so competition issues shouldn't really come into play.

Craig Ramsay and Brad McCrimmon were two names I certainly didn't expect to see, especially the former. Not disagreeing, since I haven't heard arguments, just surprised. Was the list with Ramsay also the one (or possibly two or three?) with Provost and Carbonneau?
I've lost my original list, but if I recall correctly, I included Provost and Carbonneau but not Ramsay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketshockey View Post
Who the hell voted for Felix Potvin?
LOL seconded. Same with Ovechkin and Crosby.

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07-29-2008, 07:19 AM
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I didn't vote for Potvin...

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07-29-2008, 10:49 AM
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seventieslord
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A list that had Felix Potvin on it was accepted?

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07-29-2008, 11:47 AM
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FissionFire
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Like I said, the standards for a list being included weren't particulary tight.

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07-29-2008, 12:29 PM
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holy crap, 1 point between the Rocket and Bobby Hull... might as well make that 5A - 5B... 0.3% difference.

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07-29-2008, 02:55 PM
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FissionFire
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Quite a few players were separated on the aggregate by only 1 point. Morenze - Roy - Mikita were all 1 point apart for 13-15 for exampe.

Also, a 1 point separation in the Top 10 is far more significant that it is at 20 or 30 or 50. The higher up the list you go, the less likely there is to be large ranking gaps.

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07-29-2008, 05:31 PM
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Thanks for posting this, FF. Been wondering for a while how this would shake out.

One thing I definitely noticed was that the big gainers between Votes 1 and 2 were the pre-expansion guys and the Soviets, and the guys who suffered the biggest drops were post-expansion guys. Not a surprise here.

Of course, it's fun to look and see who got votes, and who didn't get votes. I think the lowest-rated guy from my list was Vladimir Petrov at No. 147. I think its preposterous that NHL guys like Foote, Potvin and Palffy, who won't get a sniff of the HHOF (deservedly so) got votes. And I wonder how Joe Primeau could be behind Hawerchuk, Savard, Oates and Gilmour.

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07-29-2008, 06:14 PM
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The lowest ranked guy on my list is like 275th. And I probably gave Raglin and Olmstead 95% of the points they had.

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07-29-2008, 06:42 PM
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I should probably save this for when FF posts my list:

Players I voted disproportionately for

- Bill Boucher (100%). What a stupid mistake. I meant to vote for Buck Boucher, the outstanding offensive defenseman from the Senators dynasty. For some reason I thought his real name was Bill (it's actually Georges). Billy Boucher was a decent player but now he has more votes than Ching Johnson, Roy Conacher, etc. Sorry guys.

- Gump Worsley (36%). I overrated him but I'd still have him towards the end of my top 120.

- Ken Reardon (22%). I had him ranked 111th, and I stand behind this. An outstanding physical, defensive blueliner. I realize he retired young but I'm surprised there wasn't more support for him.

- Marcel Pronovost (15%). I stand by his 112th place ranking. I think I had a lot more defensemen than most people.

- Denis Savard (14%). I had him about 92, probably 40 spots too high. Did I mean Serge? I just noticed that he was absent from my list, I swore I included him.

- Rod Langway (14%). I probably had him higher than anybody but, again, I think I have more (and probably higher ranking) defensemen than most. (Including Kelly and Clapper I have 35 blueliners).

- Igor Larionov (12%). I had him as only the 4th best player on the CSKA Moscow 1980s team (77th).

- Doug Bentley (10%). Max is better but I don't think the difference is as big as our list indicates.

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07-29-2008, 06:59 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I should probably save this for when FF posts my list:

Players I voted disproportionately for

- Bill Boucher (100%). What a stupid mistake. I meant to vote for Buck Boucher, the outstanding offensive defenseman from the Senators dynasty. For some reason I thought his real name was Bill (it's actually Georges). Billy Boucher was a decent player but now he has more votes than Ching Johnson, Roy Conacher, etc. Sorry guys.

- Gump Worsley (36%). I overrated him but I'd still have him towards the end of my top 120.

- Ken Reardon (22%). I had him ranked 111th, and I stand behind this. An outstanding physical, defensive blueliner. I realize he retired young but I'm surprised there wasn't more support for him.

- Marcel Pronovost (15%). I stand by his 112th place ranking. I think I had a lot more defensemen than most people.

- Denis Savard (14%). I had him about 92, probably 40 spots too high. Did I mean Serge? I just noticed that he was absent from my list, I swore I included him.

- Rod Langway (14%). I probably had him higher than anybody but, again, I think I have more (and probably higher ranking) defensemen than most. (Including Kelly and Clapper I have 35 blueliners).

- Igor Larionov (12%). I had him as only the 4th best player on the CSKA Moscow 1980s team (77th).

- Doug Bentley (10%). Max is better but I don't think the difference is as big as our list indicates.
I would have Langway much, much higher.

But Pavel Bure at 137 is ridiculous. I know a few heavy hitters here really trashed him, but he should at the very least be in the top 100.

There is no freakin' way Johnny Bucyk was a better player than Peter Forsberg.

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07-29-2008, 07:03 PM
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reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
- Ken Reardon (22%). I had him ranked 111th, and I stand behind this. An outstanding physical, defensive blueliner. I realize he retired young but I'm surprised there wasn't more support for him.
I had him at #85, which means we were the only two to have him on our lists as that accounts for all of his 46 points.

Quote:
- Rod Langway (14%). I probably had him higher than anybody but, again, I think I have more (and probably higher ranking) defensemen than most. (Including Kelly and Clapper I have 35 blueliners).
Doing a quick count I had 35 as well. I tried to go with an intent of the list being 50% forwards, 20% goalies and 30% defencemen. I think the HHOF and award voting tends to be slanted a little too heavily in favour of forwards.

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07-29-2008, 07:17 PM
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My list was pretty heavy on defensemen as well (17 out of the top 50, 36 in total if you count F/D like Mark Howe and Ebbie Goodfellow).

The only player I voted extremely disproportionately for was Hod Stuart (100%). I think I had him a bit high in retrospect but I would still have him on a top-120 list if I was doing it again.

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07-29-2008, 07:17 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post

- Bill Boucher (100%). What a stupid mistake. I meant to vote for Buck Boucher, the outstanding offensive defenseman from the Senators dynasty. For some reason I thought his real name was Bill (it's actually Georges). Billy Boucher was a decent player but now he has more votes than Ching Johnson, Roy Conacher, etc. Sorry guys.
Ok, that makes sense. I saw you mention voting for Billy Boucher in another thread and just assumed you meant Buck. But then I saw that somebody actually voted for Billy, and assumed it must have been you, which I found strange.

Good job on ending up with 35 d-men. I had 29 (includes Kelly, Clapper, Gerard as blueliners), which was probably a touch higher than the average, but lower than it should have been.


Last edited by Kyle McMahon: 07-29-2008 at 11:28 PM.
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07-29-2008, 08:26 PM
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Poor Black Jack probably missed the Top-100 by two points...

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07-29-2008, 08:31 PM
  #19
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34 D's, including Taylor, Clapper and al.

Man, there are some stinkers in my master list. Jagr and Pronger's rating are disgusting.... in a different way.

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07-29-2008, 11:28 PM
  #20
Kyle McMahon
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Just realised I'm the only person who listed Roy Worters (107). If AST selections had been created a few years prior to when they were, he may be viewed in a different light. A Hart and two other top five finishes in years before AST's. Twice took the sad-sack Pirates to the playoffs. Take a look at the Pittsburgh roster for 1927-28. If you recognize any of those defensemen, you should win a prize.

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07-29-2008, 11:54 PM
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pitseleh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Just realised I'm the only person who listed Roy Worters (107). If AST selections had been created a few years prior to when they were, he may be viewed in a different light. A Hart and two other top five finishes in years before AST's. Twice took the sad-sack Pirates to the playoffs. Take a look at the Pittsburgh roster for 1927-28. If you recognize any of those defensemen, you should win a prize.
Hey, I know Bert McCaffrey. What do I win?

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08-17-2008, 09:43 PM
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Wow, I just realized Syd Howe isn't among the players appearing on the aggregate list. If I recall correctly, he wasn't too far on my list below position #120. He finished 3 times among the top-5 for Hart voting, was a great all around player, proven playoff performer and is a more than legit Hall of Famer. Maybe it's just a question of circumstances but it's pretty weird. I know WWII probably weights a lot in the equation but I still think he may be one of the most underrated player in here. What's the consensus on him in the all-time draft crew?

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08-17-2008, 11:16 PM
  #23
MXD
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Hey, I know Bert McCaffrey. What do I win?
I did know of Marty Burke, but I really don't know why. Probably when I was doing some research on either Lorne Chabot, Howie Morenz(trade-mates...) or Albert Leduc.

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08-18-2008, 12:51 AM
  #24
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
Wow, I just realized Syd Howe isn't among the players appearing on the aggregate list. If I recall correctly, he wasn't too far on my list below position #120. He finished 3 times among the top-5 for Hart voting, was a great all around player, proven playoff performer and is a more than legit Hall of Famer. Maybe it's just a question of circumstances but it's pretty weird. I know WWII probably weights a lot in the equation but I still think he may be one of the most underrated player in here. What's the consensus on him in the all-time draft crew?
I love Syd Howe. I coudln't find room for him in my top-120 but it was close. I am surprised that absolutely nobody else did.

Did he switch positions too often? Looking at his numbers and penchant for a great all-around game (from what I read, he was great defensively and physically) there are seasons where he really should have been a post-season all-star. Perhaps it was splitting time at center and LW that screwed him over there. Toe Blake made this list and Blake isn't THAT much better than Howe.

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