HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Stern to NHLPA on Levitt:"can't imagine a person of more reliability on economics.."

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-20-2004, 12:37 PM
  #1
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 110,757
vCash: 5888
Stern to NHLPA on Levitt:"can't imagine a person of more reliability on economics.."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=72936


is it me or is the NBA getting involved with the NHL CBA? Very intersting since the NBA will reep all the benefits of a lockout..

GKJ is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 12:41 PM
  #2
ehc73
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,943
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to ehc73
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=72936


is it me or is the NBA getting involved with the NHL CBA? Very intersting since the NBA will reep all the benefits of a lockout..
Bah, Bettman used to work for the NBA. I wouldn't be surprised if this were a favour Bettman asked Stern to speak up on for the PR war.

ehc73 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 12:56 PM
  #3
Toonces
The beer kitty
 
Toonces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,676
vCash: 500
I don't know exactly what the NHLPA wants. Perhaps the NHL should just completely open their books to public scrutiny.

Why doesn't the NHLPA hire an auiditor and release their own figures?

Toonces is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 01:03 PM
  #4
Other Dave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New and improved in TO
Posts: 2,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonces
Why doesn't the NHLPA hire an auiditor and release their own figures?
Because the NHL won't let themselves be audited?

Other Dave

Other Dave is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 01:06 PM
  #5
Joe T Choker
Roll Wide Roll
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Country: Italy
Posts: 23,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Other Dave
Because the NHL won't let themselves be audited?

Other Dave
I could have sworn that is what Mr. Levitt just did

Joe T Choker is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 02:23 PM
  #6
MHJS
HFBoards Sponsor
 
MHJS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven_Nation_Army
I could have sworn that is what Mr. Levitt just did
He means being audited by someone elses accountants. The NHL hired Levitt to do it, they wouldn't want the NHLPA hiring somebody for fear of them twisting the NHL's figures.


Alteast that's what I think OtherDave means.

MHJS is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 02:29 PM
  #7
CH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHJS
He means being audited by someone elses accountants. The NHL hired Levitt to do it, they wouldn't want the NHLPA hiring somebody for fear of them twisting the NHL's figures.


Or possibly exposing the fact that the NHL has already twisted things in order to obtain their current figures.

CH is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 03:12 PM
  #8
discostu
Registered User
 
discostu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nomadville
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH
Or possibly exposing the fact that the NHL has already twisted things in order to obtain their current figures.
Which links back into the original comments that Stern had about Levitt, that he's a pretty reliable guy in this area.

I'm not denying that Stern may have been called on by Bettman to make some comments, but I think his point is valid. Levitt is the Chairman of the SEC, and is a well reputed person in this area. He has a lot to lose distorting his findings just because the NHL asks him too.


Last edited by discostu: 02-20-2004 at 03:40 PM.
discostu is online now  
Old
02-20-2004, 03:17 PM
  #9
Toonces
The beer kitty
 
Toonces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHJS
He means being audited by someone elses accountants. The NHL hired Levitt to do it, they wouldn't want the NHLPA hiring somebody for fear of them twisting the NHL's figures.
Fair enough, but it's in everybodys best intrests to avoid a lockout.

I can't beleive that a neutral party can't be found to avoid all this nonsense...

Toonces is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 03:47 PM
  #10
CH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
Which links back into the original comments that Stern had about Levitt, that he's a pretty reliable guy in this area.

I'm not denying that Stern may have been called on by Bettman to make some comments, but I think his point is valid. Levitt is the Chairman of the SEC, and is a well reputed person in this area. He has a lot to lose about distorting his findings just because the NHL asks him too.

Does he really have a lot to lose? Is there any realistic chance that the NHL books will be opened up and it will be made clear to the average joe hockey fan on the street what is in them?

There is very little chance that any of us will see the actual NHL numbers.

I suspect they are not in nearly as bad shape as the NHL is.

Should the NHLPA ever release some numbers (I dont know how they can since they are never given access to the books), I suspect the real situation will not be as good as the NHLPA claims it is.

I think Levitt can safely assume that nobody will ever know what the real situation in the NHL is.

Anyway, there is enough leeway in accounting that I'm sure that the NHL's books can be shown to have either a large profit or a large loss. I dont presume to know exactly where the numbers lie, but they are not as bad as the NHL claims. They never have been. Fifty years ago the owners claimed the NHL would go bankrupt if their stars got $50,000 a year and it wasn't true then. I suspect little has changed since except for dollar figures.

You dont become a multi-millionaire who is financially capable of owning an NHL franchise by hemmoraging money. Yet the NHL claims that is exactly what they are doing. Do you find that believable?

CH is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:00 PM
  #11
discostu
Registered User
 
discostu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nomadville
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH
Does he really have a lot to lose? Is there any realistic chance that the NHL books will be opened up and it will be made clear to the average joe hockey fan on the street what is in them?
Levitt's concern is not with Average Joe Hockey Fan. It is with the financial community. He holds a very powerful position, and if it was discovered that he distorted the results of his analysis because the NHL asked him to, it would damage his reputation and force him to quit.

If he did willingly distorted the results, there's a significant chance that he would be discovered. The full report is not available to the public right now, but it could always be opened up at a later date, or more likely, could be subject to inspection by another group of auditors.

As Chairman of the SEC, he's privy to a lot of confidential financial information before the rest of the financial community is aware of it. If he was going to risk his reputation on something, there are a lot more safer and more lucrative ways for him to do so. Risking his reputation for the relatively small fee the NHL is paying him makes little sense.

discostu is online now  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:11 PM
  #12
craig1
Registered User
 
craig1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,207
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
Levitt's concern is not with Average Joe Hockey Fan. It is with the financial community. He holds a very powerful position, and if it was discovered that he distorted the results of his analysis because the NHL asked him to, it would damage his reputation and force him to quit.

If he did willingly distorted the results, there's a significant chance that he would be discovered. The full report is not available to the public right now, but it could always be opened up at a later date, or more likely, could be subject to inspection by another group of auditors.

As Chairman of the SEC, he's privy to a lot of confidential financial information before the rest of the financial community is aware of it. If he was going to risk his reputation on something, there are a lot more safer and more lucrative ways for him to do so. Risking his reputation for the relatively small fee the NHL is paying him makes little sense.
I couldn't agree more. Levitt wouldn't risk millions in future earnings for a paltry $250,000 from the NHL. He has even said he took it because he thought it would be interesting and fun.....that's paraphrasing what he said at least. He didn't do this for the money.

craig1 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:18 PM
  #13
CH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
Levitt's concern is not with Average Joe Hockey Fan. It is with the financial community. He holds a very powerful position, and if it was discovered that he distorted the results of his analysis because the NHL asked him to, it would damage his reputation and force him to quit.

If he did willingly distorted the results, there's a significant chance that he would be discovered. The full report is not available to the public right now, but it could always be opened up at a later date, or more likely, could be subject to inspection by another group of auditors.
The financial community in general doesnt give a crap about the NHL and wont even notice it unless such a significant scandal develops based on his report that it catches the interest of the average joe hcokey fan.

I submit that his accounting is probably all legal and all very aggressive. His job was to present a report that put the NHL's finances in as poor a state as he could within accepted accounting rules. And he did just that. And the NHL didn't tell anybody about it until they knew that his report would tow their company line. So if it turned out that he didn't produce the report it would have been buried and we would not be discussing it.

In principle somebody else could present a report that puts the NHL's finances in as rosy a position as they can under accepted accounting rules. I bet they show a large profit. And I bet the "actual scenario" when you strip away the aggressive acounting lies somewhere in the middle.

You arguement as I understand it is there is a closed group of people commenting on this Levitt report. The NHL who hired them, Levitt himself and David Sterne (who makes no claim to have actually read the report). And you cannot imagine them lying. So it must be true.

Fact is the NHL has been lying about how poor finacnes are since day one. Sterne probably hasn't seen the book at all, but is an old buddy of Gary Bettman. Levitt was hired to show how poor the NHL books were with aggressive (though likely legal) accounting practises. All have strong motives to agree with one another.

Nobody impartial has ever been shown the NHL books. Ever wonder why that is?

CH is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:36 PM
  #14
discostu
Registered User
 
discostu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nomadville
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH
His job was to present a report that put the NHL's finances in as poor a state as he could within accepted accounting rules.
You haven't read the report, have you?

He is very clear in his methodology on how he handled some of the more delicate items, such as arena profits and television deals. He passed over some obvious areas where he could have exagerrated the losses, and still stayed well within the accounting limits.

I understand that some people wish to remain skeptical. In the initial thread where this report was discussed, I asked if anybody who still is skeptical and has read the report, if they could still see some room to materially distort the figures based on the methodology used, to share it with the board, to which no one has replied. If you still are skeptical, then by all means, tell us why?

As for the financial community not responding, I'm afraid I can't agree with you there. The people behind the financial markets specialize in capturing and analyzing all available information to make their decisions. If a key person behind the SEC had allegations such as this thrown at him with the appropriate evidence, the financial community would take notice.

discostu is online now  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:39 PM
  #15
Motown Beatdown
Need a slump buster
 
Motown Beatdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Indianapolis
Country: United States
Posts: 8,554
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Other Dave
Because the NHL won't let themselves be audited?

Other Dave


Very true, because if the NHLPA gets ahold of those books and reports the Owners are lying about their number the IRS would have to get involved. I;m sure the NHL doesn't want all 24 American teams having their books looked over long and hard by the government. And same for the 6 Canadians teams by their government.

The NHL Owners are already at a huge advantage when it comes to the fans. Everyone can find out what each player makes in no time. The owners on the other hand your just guessing on profits and loses. Unless you totally believe them

My question about Levitts report is why didn't he name names? His report was nothing new saying X amount of teams made money and X amount of teams lost money.

Motown Beatdown is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 04:55 PM
  #16
ehc73
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,943
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to ehc73
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
My question about Levitts report is why didn't he name names? His report was nothing new saying X amount of teams made money and X amount of teams lost money.
Probably for privacy reasons. NHL teams are, after all, private businesses.

ehc73 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 05:14 PM
  #17
craig1
Registered User
 
craig1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,207
vCash: 500
Levitt also retained the right to realease each teams Profits/Losses at a later date if necessary. Until that would happen, they will remain privat for the reason ehc73 stated.

I am fairly sure however that they could be disclosed to the NHLPA without disclosing to the public if Goodenow signed a non-disclosure agreement, which he probably wouldn't do.........

craig1 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 05:21 PM
  #18
Oilers Ent
Registered User
 
Oilers Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Burnaby, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,665
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Oilers Ent
Why don't both the NHL and the NHLPA just lock themselves into a room and hammer out a deal rather than playing schoolyard pissing games back and forth through the press?

Anyone else tired of hearing how they are getting nowhere?

Oilers Ent is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 05:23 PM
  #19
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 110,757
vCash: 5888
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeisevil
Why don't both the NHL and the NHLPA just lock themselves into a room and hammer out a deal rather than playing schoolyard pissing games back and forth through the press?

Anyone else tired of hearing how they are getting nowhere?
You have to get Goodenow in the room. Herein lies the problem.

GKJ is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 05:35 PM
  #20
ehc73
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,943
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to ehc73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeisevil
Why don't both the NHL and the NHLPA just lock themselves into a room and hammer out a deal rather than playing schoolyard pissing games back and forth through the press?

Anyone else tired of hearing how they are getting nowhere?
Sounds just like any other labour dispute really. Only here in BC, the government just legislates people back to work and both sides get so mad at each other they call in arbitrators.

ehc73 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 06:13 PM
  #21
CH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
You haven't read the report, have you?

He is very clear in his methodology on how he handled some of the more delicate items, such as arena profits and television deals. He passed over some obvious areas where he could have exagerrated the losses, and still stayed well within the accounting limits.

I most definitely have read the report. And I'm sure there is plenty of wiggle room in the accounting to adjust the profit or losses of the NHL by hundreds of millions of dollars.

CH is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 06:26 PM
  #22
ehc73
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,943
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to ehc73
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH
I most definitely have read the report. And I'm sure there is plenty of wiggle room in the accounting to adjust the profit or losses of the NHL by hundreds of millions of dollars.
You make Levitt sound like Arthur Anderson.

ehc73 is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 09:59 PM
  #23
IslesJack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 394
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to IslesJack Send a message via AIM to IslesJack
please...

CH give it up. Your arguments are just as bad as Bob Goodenow's!

Not only would Arthur Levitt jeopordize his career and reputation by lying and twisting the numbers around there would be even bigger legal issues here. The NHL and Arthur Levitt had a contract stating what he had to do. Look in the books, and give the NHL, NHLPA and the Public an accurate report of the NHL's financial situation and that is what he did.

Arthur Levitt makes millions doing what he does. Would he put everything on stake here for a measly $250,000?

IslesJack is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 10:03 PM
  #24
IslesJack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 394
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to IslesJack Send a message via AIM to IslesJack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonces
I don't know exactly what the NHLPA wants. Perhaps the NHL should just completely open their books to public scrutiny.

Why doesn't the NHLPA hire an auiditor and release their own figures?
Because the loses are legit and the NHLPA knows it. If they hire there own auiditor and he is honest, the report will be the same as the one the URO's and Levitt's report show. HUGE AMOUNTS OF LOSSES. This my friend, would weaken the PA TREMENDOUSLY and contradict everything Bob Goodenow has publicly stated.

IslesJack is offline  
Old
02-20-2004, 10:04 PM
  #25
IslesJack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 394
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to IslesJack Send a message via AIM to IslesJack
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeisevil
Why don't both the NHL and the NHLPA just lock themselves into a room and hammer out a deal rather than playing schoolyard pissing games back and forth through the press?

Anyone else tired of hearing how they are getting nowhere?
Because the NHLPA's best shot at getting a better deal from the NHL would be in the elventh hour. Then the NHL would be more willing to compromise....

IslesJack is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:04 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.