OT: Top-15 D-men - Phaneuf vs. Visnovsky and some more Flames/Oilers comparisons
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11
Pitkanen is the biggest headcase in the league(No joke), even if he has the talent, he hasn't put it all together for one season. I would take Visnovsky over him currently. Visnovsky is only 31 and signed on for another 5 years. Yes he had a bad season last year, but so did Kiprusoff. Visnovsky was a Top 10 Defenseman the two years prior to last, just like Kiprusoff was a Top 10 Goaltender the first two years after the lockout. I think he can rebound due to the talent in Edmonton this year.
If Schremp breaks camp, we should have 8-9 Top 6 forwards
uhh? really? off the top of my head i can name 10 defensemen that were better than him 2 years ago.
yes and no, if were only talking offensive stats then i agree, top 10 defensemen, if were talking guys that can change a game with a hit, a goal (he can do that according to your stats and from the games ive been to see), a fight, or great defensive play which IMO a top 10 deffencemen should do then he doesnt break the top 10.
yes and no, if were only talking offensive stats then i agree, top 10 defensemen, if were talking guys that can change a game with a hit, a goal (he can do that according to your stats and from the games ive been to see), a fight, or great defensive play which IMO a top 10 deffencemen should do then he doesnt break the top 10.
He can be a game-changer by a goal and possibly a great defensive play(Kings fans have said he has a good stick), or an incredible end-to-end rush. But he doesn't have to do it with a big hit or fight.
When you talk about guys like Niedermayer,Lidstrom,Bouwmeester,Kaberle,Timmonen, Rafalski,Gonchar or Markov, they don't change a game through hits or fights(But through simple smart plays in the defensive end/A big offensive contribution).
I can understand your enthusiasm for Phaneuf, but he has every reason to flourish in Calgary(Which he does). Regehr and Sarich play the tough minutes, he plays with very good team mates(See his QualTeam) and gets tons of PP time.
But please compare the teams of these two players, Phaneuf played for a consistent playoff team. Visnovsky played for a consistent bottom-feeder. The feats that Visnovsky was able to establish in LA were unbelievable. Only two Defenseman have been more productive offensively since the lockout(Lidstrom and Gonchar) and both of those guys play on Stanley Cup contenders.
I know that many Flames fans dislike me and consider me a homer, and it is entirely your opinion on what to believe, but please consider the following facts:
-Could Phaneuf have been a 50+ Point scorer the first three seasons of his career if he played in LA?
-Can Phaneuf ever lead a team like LA in points?
-Could Phaneuf have succeeded in being the third highest scoring defenseman(since the lockout) on a team like Los Angeles?
Visnovsky is one of the most underrated defenseman in the league because he plays i A "Pathetic Hockey Market" as Klowe would put it.
If Visnovsky was playing for a Canadian Team, he would have just as much hype as Kaberle,Markov,Phaneuf or Chara(when he used to play for the Sens).
I have a question, who would think is better, Gonchar or Phaneuf?
If you say Gonchar, than I don't see the underhype for Visnovsky.
youre asking me to compare two entirely different types of defensemen.
gonchar on the one had is almost completely offensive, is not hugely physical and has 10 years more experience than phaneuf has.
and ive never thought that 2 years ago that phaneuf deserved to be on that list of the top 10 defensemen in the league, he was too young and too inexperienced for that.
do i believe that phaneuf has the offensive capibilities to lead a team like LA in points, no, because he is a more rounded player. he takes bigger risks with his physicality and plays a meaner game than visnovsky.
i dont know if phaneuf could be the 3rd highest scoring defensemen since the lockout, youre asking me hypothetical questions.
and lastly, i think anyone could lead LA in points... hell they are the kings, at this point they would take anyone who has NHL experience. over 50% of their lineup (as of right now) are rookies.
I know that many Flames fans dislike me and consider me a homer, and it is entirely your opinion on what to believe, but please consider the following facts:
-Could Phaneuf have been a 50+ Point scorer the first three seasons of his career if he played in LA?
-Can Phaneuf ever lead a team like LA in points?
-Could Phaneuf have succeeded in being the third highest scoring defenseman(since the lockout) on a team like Los Angeles?
Maybe, yes and yes! It is a common misperception, that it is more difficult to record outstanding offensive numbers on a bad team than on a good one. While you may argue, that less talented teams score less goals and offer less support, the player however gets more ice-time, in particular on the PP and thus gets more scoring chances. Thus said, do you believe, Phaneuf would have posted 50+ points season three times in a row, if he were on a team like Detroit or Pittsburgh, where he would have seen less PP ice-time respectively would have played a system, which focus more on puck movement than shooting from the point? Do you believe, Phaneuf would have posted his numbers, if there were another #-1offensive defensemen? I fairly doubt it.
Thus said, the pivotal question is less about overall team performance and more about team identity, team system and how the pieces complement each other.
Btw, this has been a burning issue to me for a long time, as you always seem to ignore these fundamentals of team sports, when making your assessments.
Last edited by Snoil11: 08-01-2008 at 02:29 AM.
Reason: Fixing the spelling
Maybe, yes and yes! It is a common misperception, that it is more difficult to record outstanding offensive numbers on a bad team than on a good one. While you may argue, that less talented teams score less goals and offer less support, the player however gets more ice-time, in particular on the PP and thus gets more scoring chances. Thus said, do you believe, Phaneuf would have posted 50+ points season three times in a row, if he were on a team like Detroit or Pittsburgh, where he would have seen less PP ice-time respectively would have played a system, which focus more on puck movement than shooting from the point? Do you believe, Phaneuf would have posted his numbers, if there were another #-1offensive defensemen? I fairly doubt it.
Thus said, the pivotal question is less about overall team performance and more about team identity, team system and how the pieces complement each other.
Btw, this has been a burning issue to me for a long time, as you always seem to ignore these fundamentals of team sports, when making your assessments.
Ok, thanks for letting me know.
I admit that Phaneuf plays a big role on the Flames, when Iginla is no longer 90 Point player(4-5 years), I think that Phaneuf will be the centerpiece for the Flames Franchise in general. I think that Phaneuf is going to be an awesome defenseman(Top 3), when he hits his stride.
If Phaneuf was playing for the Oilers, I think that he would have developed his defensive game by this time(Mact always forces kids to play tough minutes), would I enjoy his game on the Oilers? Yes, would I try to find ways so that he can improve? definitely.
I agree whole-heartedly with your post, I just feel that Visnovsky is being terribly underrated, many Kings fans believe that he is still one of the best defenseman in the league.
I am not here to argue over Phaneuf with you, just cut Visnovsky some slack, that's all I'm saying.
ill take burns. and you dont think redden is one of the top 15 defensemen in the league?
and i do agree that visnovsky is underrated, just not to the extent that you seem to think. we have different opinions nothing wrong with that.
Redden has seriously regressed over the last two years(I am a sens fan), the guy is a terrible leader and hasn't proven to be anything more than a good 40 Point second-pairing guy.
The guys is simply not capable of being a No. 1 Defenseman anymore.
I can understand your enthusiasm for Phaneuf, but he has every reason to flourish in Calgary(Which he does). Regehr and Sarich play the tough minutes, he plays with very good team mates(See his QualTeam) and gets tons of PP time.
But please compare the teams of these two players, Phaneuf played for a consistent playoff team. Visnovsky played for a consistent bottom-feeder. The feats that Visnovsky was able to establish in LA were unbelievable. Only two Defenseman have been more productive offensively since the lockout(Lidstrom and Gonchar) and both of those guys play on Stanley Cup contenders.
Dude, you do know that Phaneuf spent almost the entire year playing with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale instead of Aucoin, Sarich and Regehr, right? Yeah, those 3 he played the majority of the year with are veeeeeeeeeery talented.
Phaneuf's last 3 years were his only 3 years. He'll be outscoring Visnovsky every year from here on out. And I think over the last 3 years Visnovsky has only outscored Phaneuf by about 6 points, if I'm not mistaken.
Dude, you do know that Phaneuf spent almost the entire year playing with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale instead of Aucoin, Sarich and Regehr, right? Yeah, those 3 he played the majority of the year with are veeeeeeeeeery talented.
Phaneuf's last 3 years were his only 3 years. He'll be outscoring Visnovsky every year from here on out. And I think over the last 3 years Visnovsky has only outscored Phaneuf by about 6 points, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't know about him outscoring Phaneuf every year here on out, take a look at the Flames forwards outside of their Top Line.
Dude, you do know that Phaneuf spent almost the entire year playing with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale instead of Aucoin, Sarich and Regehr, right? Yeah, those 3 he played the majority of the year with are veeeeeeeeeery talented.
Phaneuf's last 3 years were his only 3 years. He'll be outscoring Visnovsky every year from here on out. And I think over the last 3 years Visnovsky has only outscored Phaneuf by about 6 points, if I'm not mistaken.
You do know that Visnovsky spent the last three years on a lottery team right? You also do know that he was partners with Rob Blake(From what I've heard from Kings fans, he is the biggest pylon on the planet) in LA?
I would consider both to be Top 10-15 defenseman in the league currently. But, Phaneuf will be Top 5 in the future(3-4 years), Visnovsky's current status won't change by that time.
So if Visnovsky can perform with bad players and a bad team in LA, why can't Phaneuf do it with a Flames team that lacks depth?
Did I say he can't? I am saying that you should also acknowledge other players achievements as well. There is only two young defenseman I would take over Phaneuf currently.
Cactus Jack, I respect you, you are one of the only Flames fans who considers Visnovsky a Top 10-15 Defenseman.
Anyways, you want to just continue this Convo on a PM? Or battle it out hard here
You do know that Visnovsky spent the last three years on a lottery team right? You also do know that he was partners with Rob Blake(From what I've heard from Kings fans, he is the biggest pylon on the planet) in LA?
I would consider both to be Top 10-15 defenseman in the league currently. But, Phaneuf will be Top 5 in the future(3-4 years), Visnovsky's current status won't change by that time.
I don't think anyone would say that Visnovsky is not top 15.
I for one think he is a excellent offensive defense man, but if I had the choice between Dion Phaneuf or Vish I would go with Dion, and really don't need to explain why as it's pretty obvious.
As for Blake he is not the biggest pylon in the planet that honor goes to Semsenov form the Sharks, and even they would agree I think.
I like you Loftb11, you got alot of heart most would just leave after about month but you stick it out and do a decent job working with what you know. I'm going to cut you some slack as I think I have pretty hard on you. Still it's not so much the substance of what you post but the tone and method in which you present information that gains so mush attention. Plus your anti-Flames bias just oozes out of your words which makes it even harder to resist. Also you over-value your players a whole lot without seeing much in terms of results,but base it off other posters opinion mostly which is like putting a candle in a room full of moths for Flames fans (we cant help it).
Perhaps you should steer clear of threads involving us, and maybe watch some more games this year that don't have either Calgary or Edmonton make your own opinions.
Last edited by Ticonderoga: 08-01-2008 at 02:31 PM.
I don't think anyone would say that Visnovsky is not top 15.
I for one think he is a excellent offensive defense man, but if I had the choice between Dion Phaneuf or Vish I would go with Dion, and really don't need to explain why as it's pretty obvious.
As for Blake he is not the biggest pylon in the planet that honor goes to Semsenov form the Sharks, and even they would agree I think.
I like you Loftb11, you got alot of heart most would just leave after about month but you stick it out and do a decent job working with what you know. I'm going to cut you some slack as I think I have pretty hard on you. Still it's not so much the substance of what you post but the tone and method in which you present information that gains so mush attention. Plus your anti-Flames bias just oozes out of your words which makes it even harder to resist. Also you over-value your players a whole lot without seeing much in terms of results,but base it off other posters opinion mostly which is like putting a candle in a room full of moths for Flames fans (we cant help it).
Perhaps you should steer clear of threads involving us, and maybe watch some more games this year that don't have either Calgary or Edmonton make your own opinions.
It's proven that he is Top 15 due to his overall stats over the last three years.
at the Semenov comment, as an Oiler fan, I totally know where your're coming from.
I like you too Classy Iggy, I think that you are one of the only flames fans on this board that show the Oil any respect. I don't try to be cruel to Flames fans by harsh comments, but when guys like MrMastodonFarm show up and start heckling me like crazy, I get a little pissed.. I am sorry for any trolling I committed during the past, I'll try to avoid those in the future.
Dude, it's not even Flames fans on this board who piss me off, it's the people I know in reality. The Flames fans that I hang out with have pushed me just too far with their idiotic comments about the Oilers. I think the Flames idiots that I have met are the reason why I have such a bad opinion about you guys.
I don't think anyone would say that Visnovsky is not top 15.
I for one think he is a excellent offensive defense man, but if I had the choice between Dion Phaneuf or Vish I would go with Dion, and really don't need to explain why as it's pretty obvious.
As for Blake he is not the biggest pylon in the planet that honor goes to Semsenov form the Sharks, and even they would agree I think.
I like you Loftb11, you got alot of heart most would just leave after about month but you stick it out and do a decent job working with what you know. I'm going to cut you some slack as I think I have pretty hard on you. Still it's not so much the substance of what you post but the tone and method in which you present information that gains so mush attention. Plus your anti-Flames bias just oozes out of your words which makes it even harder to resist. Also you over-value your players a whole lot without seeing much in terms of results,but base it off other posters opinion mostly which is like putting a candle in a room full of moths for Flames fans (we cant help it).
Perhaps you should steer clear of threads involving us, and maybe watch some more games this year that don't have either Calgary or Edmonton make your own opinions.
So, I have to agree with Flames fans here, Phaneuf is the best defenseman in the NorthWest(But I would consider Ohlund,Burns and Visnovsky on the same page as him).
Sorry for all the crap I started about Iginla and Phaneuf.
Tough question. If this just based on ability to defend, then it looks different from 2way ability which is what I'll base mine on, (people currently playing mind you so no S. Neids):
I don't think anyone would say that Visnovsky is not top 15.
I for one think he is a excellent offensive defense man, but if I had the choice between Dion Phaneuf or Vish I would go with Dion, and really don't need to explain why as it's pretty obvious.
As for Blake he is not the biggest pylon in the planet that honor goes to Semsenov form the Sharks, and even they would agree I think.
I like you Loftb11, you got alot of heart most would just leave after about month but you stick it out and do a decent job working with what you know. I'm going to cut you some slack as I think I have pretty hard on you. Still it's not so much the substance of what you post but the tone and method in which you present information that gains so mush attention. Plus your anti-Flames bias just oozes out of your words which makes it even harder to resist. Also you over-value your players a whole lot without seeing much in terms of results,but base it off other posters opinion mostly which is like putting a candle in a room full of moths for Flames fans (we cant help it).
Perhaps you should steer clear of threads involving us, and maybe watch some more games this year that don't have either Calgary or Edmonton make your own opinions.
Sorry I misready your post. I thought you said that No one WOULD say that Visnovsky is Top 10-15 in terms of defenseman.
Tough question. If this just based on ability to defend, then it looks different from 2way ability which is what I'll base mine on, (people currently playing mind you so no S. Neids):
And outside of Hemsky, Horxoff and kinda of Cole..who on Edmonton has shown to be a legit, consistant top 6 forward???
The young guys have potential but they havent proved jack yet. Just like Lombardi, Boyd, Bourque, etc.
I would say Gagner. He has the skill set and smarts to be a great hockey player. He already put up 50 points as an 18-year-old. We consider Lombo as a top-6 guy with his 50'ish points, and so is Gagner.
I would say Gagner. He has the skill set and smarts to be a great hockey player. He already put up 50 points as an 18-year-old. We consider Lombo as a top-6 guy with his 50'ish points, and so is Gagner.
We do? I think the problem with Lombardi for many is the fact that he has yet to establish himself as a top 6 forward. To this point in his career he hasn't been one consistently.
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. I am sorry for any trolling I committed during the past, I'll try to avoid those in the future.
Sorry I misready your post. I thought you said that No one WOULD say that Visnovsky is Top 10-15 in terms of defenseman.
