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OT: Top-15 D-men - Phaneuf vs. Visnovsky and some more Flames/Oilers comparisons

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Old
08-05-2008, 12:27 PM
  #76
Cactus Jack
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My thoughts:
- Lombardi is a top 6 forward. He had 50 points 2 years ago playing between the 2nd/3rd line and 28 (I believe last year) playing with Yelle and Primeau. You get 3rd line production when you bury a guy with 3rd line wingers. What, were we expecting 50-60 points from Lombardi who saw very little pp time and wingers with hands of stone? He'll play this year with Cammalleri/Bertuzzi/Boyd/Bourque and will get 20 goals and 30 assists.

Gagner is an excellent player and if we Flames fans are cursing his name for 20 years, let's hope Dion is here 20 years to pound him into the boards. I hope Dion develops the same love for hitting Gagner that Regehr has for Hemsky.

As for development, I thought Dion was going to be a top 10 D in the league right off the bat. The guy was amazing, playing huge minutes and doing everything. Even Don Cherry said Dion deserved Norris consideration in his rookie year. As for Iggy, I thought he'd be a good player but prior to 2002 I never would have thought that he would have turned out as he has.

LOTB11, sometimes a player explodes (like Iggy in 2002) and their development curve jumps up to a level you wouldn't expect. Just because Gagner had 50 points as a rookie doesn't mean he will get 100 some day. He has to get there first. Look at the numbers guys like Lecavalier and Thornton had for their first few years before they exploded, as opposed to high end guys like Crosby and Ovechkin that produced right away.

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Old
08-05-2008, 02:26 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
My thoughts:
- Lombardi is a top 6 forward. He had 50 points 2 years ago playing between the 2nd/3rd line and 28 (I believe last year) playing with Yelle and Primeau. You get 3rd line production when you bury a guy with 3rd line wingers. What, were we expecting 50-60 points from Lombardi who saw very little pp time and wingers with hands of stone? He'll play this year with Cammalleri/Bertuzzi/Boyd/Bourque and will get 20 goals and 30 assists.

Gagner is an excellent player and if we Flames fans are cursing his name for 20 years, let's hope Dion is here 20 years to pound him into the boards. I hope Dion develops the same love for hitting Gagner that Regehr has for Hemsky.

As for development, I thought Dion was going to be a top 10 D in the league right off the bat. The guy was amazing, playing huge minutes and doing everything. Even Don Cherry said Dion deserved Norris consideration in his rookie year. As for Iggy, I thought he'd be a good player but prior to 2002 I never would have thought that he would have turned out as he has.

LOTB11, sometimes a player explodes (like Iggy in 2002) and their development curve jumps up to a level you wouldn't expect. Just because Gagner had 50 points as a rookie doesn't mean he will get 100 some day. He has to get there first. Look at the numbers guys like Lecavalier and Thornton had for their first few years before they exploded, as opposed to high end guys like Crosby and Ovechkin that produced right away.
It's not the fact that he scored 50 Points as a rookie. It's how incredible he looked for the second half of the season, 40 games, putting up 36 points. When he actually got 1st unit PP time and was playing in the top 6 with Cogliano and Nilsson, the guy averaged a little over a PPG(36 P, 34 GP)

He's 18, if Flames fans think that Phaneuf is going to win the Norris, why can't Oilers fans think that Gagner is going to hit 100 Points?

I'm going to love seeing Phaneuf and Gagner have battles in the corners in the future. They are the future of the Battle of Alberta.

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Old
08-05-2008, 05:47 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by millax View Post
Do you really think Langkow is a better player than both Horcoff and Hemsky?

Really?

Also, Franzen had a great playoff.. Would you have ranked Pisani ahead of Hemsky, Horcoff etc. after the Oilers 05/06 run?
At no time history has Horcoff been better than Langkow. (OK maybe in the Oiler SC run when Langkow was golfing, but then it was close )IT is a huge hometown discount Langkow gave to the Flames. Meanwhile the Oilers gave Horcoff more than what he could get elsewhere for the "intangibles" of not minding playing in Edmonton for the McT and KLowe circus. With Tambellini in charge that shouldn't happen going forward. Horcoff is basically a 2nd/3rd line player that has had some hot streaks and looked good on a teams that haven't had much else. On a team like the Redwings Horcoff would be competing with Cleary/Hudler/Filppula/Holstom for top 6 ice time.


I give him an edge over Hemsky as a better all round player, much better in his own zone, producing when away from Iginla and still getting equivalent offensive stats to Hemsky. Both have 201 pts over the last 3 years with Langkow having 88 goals to Hemsky's 52. Hemsky a -21 and Langkow +41. The only advantage is that Hemsky plays on a soft team and takes a regular beating that Langkow avoids by playing on a team that wouldn't allow that kind of stuff. Going forward can Hemsky continue at this level and/or ask for a ticket out to a team that would protect him better??

As for Franzen/Pisani the Oilers management had him ahead of Horrcoff and close to Hemsky after the SC run. Chances are that the wheels won't fall off Franzen ... young and constantly taking on a bigger role.

We will never know how good Pisani could have turned out if he wasn't in the 07-08 Oiler circus and then the lucky to play again illness.

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Old
08-05-2008, 06:40 PM
  #79
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what i really dont understand is why we (as flames fans) are talking about the oilers...

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Old
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millax View Post
Also, Franzen had a great playoff.. Would you have ranked Pisani ahead of Hemsky, Horcoff etc. after the Oilers 05/06 run?
Franzen had more then just a good playoff. Sure he got all the attention in the playoffs, but the last 3rd of the regular season he was outstanding as well. Seemed to be coming into his own. I think he'll have a great season with the wings this year. Don't really see him being like Pisani where he struggles the following season.

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Old
08-06-2008, 12:42 PM
  #81
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Franzen is a better player than Pisani but he is not going to develop into a high end scorer. I don't think he's going to be any better offensively than he was before. He's the next Pisano or Lonny Bohonus in the line of surprise playoff performers who were never able to meet those expectations again. He's big, tough, defensive and competent offensively but he won't ever be a 30 goal scorer.

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Old
08-06-2008, 01:41 PM
  #82
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Franzen had 18 goals in 31 games following the All-Star Game. In the last 16 regular-season games, he scored 15 goals. As such, his goal streak wasn't just relegated to the post-season but rather he had an extended stretch of 3 months where he was on fire.

While I don't think he's the second-coming of Mike Bossy or Jari Kurri, he should be a consistent goalscoring threat for years to come, basically a poor man's Tim Kerr. He's not a playmaker, but he doesn't have to be in the role that he plays for Detroit. I think he'll be a consistent 25- to 30-goalscorer in the NHL.

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Old
08-06-2008, 03:24 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
Dude, you do know that Phaneuf spent almost the entire year playing with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale instead of Aucoin, Sarich and Regehr, right? Yeah, those 3 he played the majority of the year with are veeeeeeeeeery talented.

Phaneuf's last 3 years were his only 3 years. He'll be outscoring Visnovsky every year from here on out. And I think over the last 3 years Visnovsky has only outscored Phaneuf by about 6 points, if I'm not mistaken.
That's just not true.

ANDERS ERIKSSON 611:27
ADRIAN AUCOIN 434:04
JAMES VANDERMEER 207:40
DAVID HALE 95:14
CORY SARICH 86:58
ROBYN REGEHR 75:01
RHETT WARRENER 21:50

He spent 913 minutes with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale.
He spent 616 minutes playing with anyone else.

So approximately 60% of his season was spent with the players you listed, not "almost the entire year".


Last edited by imkinger: 08-06-2008 at 03:30 PM.
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Old
08-06-2008, 03:33 PM
  #84
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@Imkinger:
Your stats are impressive, but unfortunately they do not reflect, how much of this ice-time was spent on the PP and PK. Aucoin and Phaneuf were paired on the first PP-unit and I guess, huge fractions of their shared ice-time was on the PP, while most of the ice-time he saw with Regehr and Sarich were on the PK.
Thus the percentage of 5-on-5-ice-time with Eriksson, Hale and Vandermeer is remarkably higher and justifies Cactus Jack's statement, that he spent almost the entire year with those three.

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08-06-2008, 03:37 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoil11 View Post
@Imkinger:
Your stats are impressive, but unfortunately they do not reflect, how much of this ice-time was spent on the PP and PK. Aucoin and Phaneuf were paired on the first PP-unit and I guess, huge fractions of their shared ice-time was on the PP, while most of the ice-time he saw with Regehr and Sarich were on the PK.
Thus the percentage of 5-on-5-ice-time with Eriksson, Hale and Vandermeer is remarkably higher and justifies Cactus Jack's statement, that he spent almost the entire year with those three.
@Snoil11:

MY numbers are 5v5 only.

Source: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/2007...player0342.php

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08-06-2008, 03:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan View Post
And outside of Hemsky, Horxoff and kinda of Cole..who on Edmonton has shown to be a legit, consistant top 6 forward???

The young guys have potential but they havent proved jack yet. Just like Lombardi, Boyd, Bourque, etc.
How about Hemsky, Cole, Horcoff, Gagner, and Penner

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08-06-2008, 04:05 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Cogliano13Gagner89 View Post
How about Hemsky, Cole, Horcoff, Gagner, and Penner
You're fogetting Nilsson, Cogliano should warrant attention as a Top 6er as well.

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08-06-2008, 04:10 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
You're fogetting Nilsson, Cogliano should warrant attention as a Top 6er as well.
Perhaps the two of you should re-read the post as it actually said that the young guys haven't proven anything yet to be worth considering. I will give you Penner though he is a pretty decent player.

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Old
08-06-2008, 04:17 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
@Snoil11:

MY numbers are 5v5 only.

Source: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/2007...player0342.php
Uhhmm...ehhmm...What should I say?
Got me, although these numbers seem way off-base from what I remember of last season. Maybe it is, that twenty minutes of Eriksson a night seem like an eternity to us Flames' fans.

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Old
08-06-2008, 04:53 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
That's just not true.

ANDERS ERIKSSON 611:27
ADRIAN AUCOIN 434:04
JAMES VANDERMEER 207:40
DAVID HALE 95:14
CORY SARICH 86:58
ROBYN REGEHR 75:01
RHETT WARRENER 21:50

He spent 913 minutes with Eriksson, Vandermeer and Hale.
He spent 616 minutes playing with anyone else.

So approximately 60% of his season was spent with the players you listed, not "almost the entire year".

No offense but you must have a lot of time on your hands. Any way you slice it 60% of a full year is a lot of time to spend with 3rd pairing defensemen.

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08-06-2008, 05:13 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
No offense but you must have a lot of time on your hands. Any way you slice it 60% of a full year is a lot of time to spend with 3rd pairing defensemen.
Eriksson, Warrener and Hale are all bottom pairing guys. The rest are top 4 guys on any team in the league.

By that metric he spent the majority of his time with top 4 guys.

So you're wrong there as well.

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08-06-2008, 05:39 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
You're fogetting Nilsson, Cogliano should warrant attention as a Top 6er as well.
Those guys, along with Gagner and Penner are at the same point as a Matt Lombardi. They are goodish players that have shown flashes but are far from "legit, CONSISTANT, top 6 forwards". (except for Ganger as everyone knows he is likely to be a legit, consistant top liner in time).

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08-06-2008, 07:59 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ryz View Post
Those guys, along with Gagner and Penner are at the same point as a Matt Lombardi. They are goodish players that have shown flashes but are far from "legit, CONSISTANT, top 6 forwards". (except for Ganger as everyone knows he is likely to be a legit, consistant top liner in time).
I don't consider Lombo as a Top 6er, because he has had 1 40 Point season in his career so far. Penner has already had two in two seasons and Gagner 50+ as an 18 year old.

Sure, maybe Nilsson and Cogliano are not as consistent as the other 5, but to sell them short of Top 6ers is plain dumb.

The only legitimate Top sixer outside of your 1st line, IMO, is Lombardi, Bertuzzi is washed up and there is no explanation needed for Bourque,Moss,Glencross,Boyd etc.

And even mentioning Lombo as a top 6er is being slightly generous, Fernando Pisani has put up similar numbers to Lombo. We don't technically consider Pisani as a top 6 forward.

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08-06-2008, 08:00 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
I don't consider Lombo as a Top 6er, because he has had 1 40 Point season in his career so far. Penner has already had two in two seasons and Gagner 50+ as an 18 year old.

Sure, maybe Nilsson and Cogliano are not as consistent as the other 5, but to sell them short of Top 6ers is plain dumb.

The only legitimate Top sixer outside of your 1st line, IMO, is Lombardi, Bertuzzi is washed up and there is no explanation needed for Bourque,Moss,Glencross,Boyd etc.

And even mentioning Lombo as a top 6er is being slightly generous, Fernando Pisani has put up similar numbers to Lombo. We don't technically consider Pisani as a top 6 forward.
Sorry, I mean to say I DO consider Lombo as a top sixer, cant edit(damn infractions)

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08-06-2008, 11:08 PM
  #95
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The Phaneuf dissenters are way too hung up on stats. Vague, complicated stats. If you are going to bring a legitimate argument about Phaneuf's play, you'll have had to actually watch the games. You watch the games for the context of the statistics, because stats on their own mean very little.

Phaneuf is not a shutdown quality defensemen like Regehr but he is solid in his own end. He is learning how to be a franchise defensmen. Meaning along with being great defensively he's expected to put up points as well. He is not only allowed to join the rush and take chances, but expected to. This style of play will lead to more scoring chances for as well as against. However, his play was very solid in his own end in the games I saw. He's the second best defensive defensemen on the team next to Regehr.

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08-06-2008, 11:57 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sec of Partying Down View Post
The Phaneuf dissenters are way too hung up on stats. Vague, complicated stats. If you are going to bring a legitimate argument about Phaneuf's play, you'll have had to actually watch the games. You watch the games for the context of the statistics, because stats on their own mean very little.

Phaneuf is not a shutdown quality defensemen like Regehr but he is solid in his own end. He is learning how to be a franchise defensmen. Meaning along with being great defensively he's expected to put up points as well. He is not only allowed to join the rush and take chances, but expected to. This style of play will lead to more scoring chances for as well as against. However, his play was very solid in his own end in the games I saw. He's the second best defensive defensemen on the team next to Regehr.
I agree with all this; well said.

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08-07-2008, 02:37 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Eriksson, Warrener and Hale are all bottom pairing guys. The rest are top 4 guys on any team in the league.

By that metric he spent the majority of his time with top 4 guys.

So you're wrong there as well.
The Flyers beg to differ concerning Vandermeer and I doubt, that he would be a top-4 defender on that many teams right now.

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08-07-2008, 03:41 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Snoil11 View Post
The Flyers beg to differ concerning Vandermeer and I doubt, that he would be a top-4 defender on that many teams right now.
Really?

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?page=Play...=page&tab=gbgt

Sorry Snoil11, 20 minutes a night =! 3rd pairing minutes.

The Flyers, John Stevens, Mike Keanen and Darryl Sutter would agree that Jim is a top 4 guy (unless you think you're GM hands out 2.3M/yr contracts to bottom pairing defensemen).

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08-07-2008, 04:09 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Really?

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?page=Play...=page&tab=gbgt

Sorry Snoil11, 20 minutes a night =! 3rd pairing minutes.

The Flyers, John Stevens, Mike Keanen and Darryl Sutter would agree that Jim is a top 4 guy (unless you think you're GM hands out 2.3M/yr contracts to bottom pairing defensemen).
considering brooks orpik is a bottom pairing dman(no, 1 playoff & half a season of top4 play dont count as a top4 caliber dman) and received a 3.5 mil/year salary, and one trick ponies like striet and hainsey are earning 4 mil/year, vandemeer's 2.3 mil/year is fair if not slightly below market value with the way this years ufa crop was

just becuase vandemeer received top4 mins doesnt mean that his skillset is suited for it

you can keep listing all the stats you want, but your stats dont necessarily reflect the situation


Last edited by Hyperkookeez*: 08-07-2008 at 04:17 AM.
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08-07-2008, 05:05 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Really?

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?page=Play...=page&tab=gbgt

Sorry Snoil11, 20 minutes a night =! 3rd pairing minutes.

The Flyers, John Stevens, Mike Keanen and Darryl Sutter would agree that Jim is a top 4 guy (unless you think you're GM hands out 2.3M/yr contracts to bottom pairing defensemen).
Sorry, I should have made myself clearer by stating, that the whole Flyers' fan base begs to differ, as all of them stated, that Vandermeer was heavily misused by Stevens.
Do you really want Vandermeer on your team as a top-4 defenseman?

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