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Forsberg, Joe or Sundin - Who would you take in their prime!?

View Poll Results: In their prime:
Forsberg 149 60.57%
Sakic 92 37.40%
Sundin 5 2.03%
Voters: 246. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-09-2008, 07:08 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Yep. We all know you think Lidstrom is the only guy allowed to be unnoticeable, play a quiet, extremely effective game and get credit for it. Yessir.
I have explained this before. Do we really want to walk down that road again?

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08-09-2008, 08:33 AM
  #77
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At his best Forsberg was the best of the three.

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08-09-2008, 08:39 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But they both have a Hart trophy, so they were recognized as the best forward in the world for the same amount of time (1 year).

Offensively, they were both overshadowed by Jagr most years.
They do, but honestly, I think the Hart should be more defined as "best season" than "best player in the world"... Forsberg was still widely considered a much better, more dominant player than Martin St-Louis, even though he did win the Hart the same year. Brodeur was still seen as a superior goaltender even though Theodore won the Hart trophy. I think Forsberg has been considered the best overall forward in the NHL for many years in the early 2000s, while I don't remember Sakic ever being adressed this way.

But this is splitting hair when talking about players of that quality!

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08-09-2008, 02:12 PM
  #79
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08-09-2008, 02:13 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiffler View Post
They do, but honestly, I think the Hart should be more defined as "best season" than "best player in the world"... Forsberg was still widely considered a much better, more dominant player than Martin St-Louis, even though he did win the Hart the same year. Brodeur was still seen as a superior goaltender even though Theodore won the Hart trophy. I think Forsberg has been considered the best overall forward in the NHL for many years in the early 2000s, while I don't remember Sakic ever being adressed this way.

But this is splitting hair when talking about players of that quality!
Hart supposedly goes to the MVP. But generally it goes to the guy with the most points.

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08-09-2008, 04:02 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Shooter Mcgavin 21 View Post
This video shows you just how good he really is, he probably could have scored 50 goals in a season if he wanted to.

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08-09-2008, 08:45 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilros View Post
I have explained this before. Do we really want to walk down that road again?
No need. I completely disagreed with your ridiculous assessments and you brazen attempt to justify why Lidstrom can get away with being unnoticeable and effective, yet Sakic gets punished for being unnoticeable but extremely effective in your eyes.

Your spoken answer is because you consider different traits for position assets, but the real answer is because Lidstrom is Swedish and Sakic is Canadian. For all your proclamations of Canadian bias on this forum, you are always most absolutely Nationality biased poster on this forum, and even many of your fellow Swedes have proclaimed embarrassment over your bias.

I can barely count the times different Swedish posters have PM'ed me to assure me you are unique and that they are not biased like you.

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08-10-2008, 06:00 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
No need. I completely disagreed with your ridiculous assessments and you brazen attempt to justify why Lidstrom can get away with being unnoticeable and effective, yet Sakic gets punished for being unnoticeable but extremely effective in your eyes.

Your spoken answer is because you consider different traits for position assets, but the real answer is because Lidstrom is Swedish and Sakic is Canadian. For all your proclamations of Canadian bias on this forum, you are always most absolutely Nationality biased poster on this forum, and even many of your fellow Swedes have proclaimed embarrassment over your bias.

I can barely count the times different Swedish posters have PM'ed me to assure me you are unique and that they are not biased like you.

I'm sure they have Like they would be ashamed to write that stuff in any given thread here instead


Lidström. Positioning is half his game, he cuts off passinglanes, shuts down counterattacks, makes crisp passes to set his team up for that ridiculous possession game they always use. He´s always right on top of the best player on the opposing team, taking him out of the game with smarts, not physique. His main goal is to prevent the other team from scoring, he is a defender.

Sakic. How often does he shut someone down? I saw him in one playoff run, in the role, that's it. I could buy in to this invisible stuff if he was a player in John Maddens mould. Then he would be doing his job if he was unnoticeable, if at the same time, they other teams superstar also was. Sakic is a star forward, and as such he should dominate the game more like other stars the last 15 years... Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Forsberg.

But he didn't.


And please, continue to make your thoughts on my mental status take up 50% of the space in posts, when you reply to something I've written.

Yeah I know, you'd have to be borderline retarded to not share your opinions on everything

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08-10-2008, 06:56 PM
  #84
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Sakic....if only Forsberg wasn't so brittle...

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08-10-2008, 07:16 PM
  #85
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08-10-2008, 07:30 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilros View Post
I'm sure they have Like they would be ashamed to write that stuff in any given thread here instead


Lidström. Positioning is half his game, he cuts off passinglanes, shuts down counterattacks, makes crisp passes to set his team up for that ridiculous possession game they always use. He´s always right on top of the best player on the opposing team, taking him out of the game with smarts, not physique. His main goal is to prevent the other team from scoring, he is a defender.

Sakic. How often does he shut someone down? I saw him in one playoff run, in the role, that's it. I could buy in to this invisible stuff if he was a player in John Maddens mould. Then he would be doing his job if he was unnoticeable, if at the same time, they other teams superstar also was. Sakic is a star forward, and as such he should dominate the game more like other stars the last 15 years... Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Forsberg.

But he didn't.


And please, continue to make your thoughts on my mental status take up 50% of the space in posts, when you reply to something I've written.

Yeah I know, you'd have to be borderline retarded to not share your opinions on everything
I guess you neglected to notice he was a Runner up for the Selke.

Sakic has ALWAYS been a great two way forward, backchecking with the best of them. Comparing him to Forsberg year by year, on average. Sakic puts up the same, if not more points, Blocks more shots, has a better faceoff percentage and has fewer giveaways + more takeaways. EVERY YEAR. This includes the year Forsberg won the Hart.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app

Sakic also *Gasp* Plays on average 2-3 minutes more a game than Forsberg EVERY YEAR, and yes, Sakic faced the other teams top Defense just as much as Forsberg, and is far more durable and reliable. Hate him all you want for being Canadian, but his style, while unnoticeable, was exceptionally effective on both ends of the ice and more consistent.

I voted for Forsberg, but the level of dung coming out of your mouth in attempts to discredit Sakic is phenominal


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-10-2008 at 09:01 PM.
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Old
08-10-2008, 08:43 PM
  #87
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Why is Sundin even in this poll? I chose Forsberg but it's very close between him and Sakic.

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Old
08-10-2008, 10:41 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Yeah, but Forsberg "prime" consist of a consistent season + some stretches of brillance between injuries while Sakic's prime consist of a contiuous 15 years of pure brillance. I don't think the choice is too difficult here.

If you take Forsberg in his prime that means that you'd have him only for a complete year while you'd have Sakic for 15 years in his prime. You just cannot take injuries out the equation in my opinion. Forsberg was dominant and probably would have been more dominant then Sakic without all the injuries, but we'll never know for sure because, actually, he was never better than Sakic except for one little season.
Why are we forgetting the fact that in 97, 98 and 99 Forsberg outscored joe sakic and was better defensively.

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08-11-2008, 03:31 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I guess you neglected to notice he was a Runner up for the Selke.

Sakic has ALWAYS been a great two way forward, backchecking with the best of them. Comparing him to Forsberg year by year, on average. Sakic puts up the same, if not more points, Blocks more shots, has a better faceoff percentage and has fewer giveaways + more takeaways. EVERY YEAR. This includes the year Forsberg won the Hart.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app

Sakic also *Gasp* Plays on average 2-3 minutes more a game than Forsberg EVERY YEAR, and yes, Sakic faced the other teams top Defense just as much as Forsberg, and is far more durable and reliable. Hate him all you want for being Canadian, but his style, while unnoticeable, was exceptionally effective on both ends of the ice and more consistent.

I voted for Forsberg, but the level of dung coming out of your mouth in attempts to discredit Sakic is phenominal

You yourself said he was unnoticeable, why are we even arguing if you basically agree with me.

The selke last last 15 years have been awarded to a good 2-way player with alot of points points and a good +/-, the whole award is pathetic since it has nothing to with who the best defensive shutdown forward is. Sakic getting a nomination could just aswell happen to 50 other guys, most of the focussing alot more on defence than he ever did.


I said Sakic got the stats without visibly dominating, he was infact unnoticeable.

The best players takes over and dictate how the game is played, when they enter the rink. Sakic didn't, and you know it.

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08-11-2008, 03:50 AM
  #90
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Pretty easy for me.. Forsberg then Sakic..

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08-11-2008, 03:52 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I guess you neglected to notice he was a Runner up for the Selke.

Sakic has ALWAYS been a great two way forward, backchecking with the best of them. Comparing him to Forsberg year by year, on average. Sakic puts up the same, if not more points, Blocks more shots, has a better faceoff percentage and has fewer giveaways + more takeaways. EVERY YEAR. This includes the year Forsberg won the Hart.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app

Sakic also *Gasp* Plays on average 2-3 minutes more a game than Forsberg EVERY YEAR, and yes, Sakic faced the other teams top Defense just as much as Forsberg, and is far more durable and reliable. Hate him all you want for being Canadian, but his style, while unnoticeable, was exceptionally effective on both ends of the ice and more consistent.

I voted for Forsberg, but the level of dung coming out of your mouth in attempts to discredit Sakic is phenominal
I missed the comment you quoted since like most I have Bilros on the ignore, but I couldnt help but notice he said Sakic didnt dominate games but Bure did.

Bure skated figure 8's in the neutral zone waiting for a breakout pass. On a good year maybe he gets you 60 goals while being a liability every second he's on the ice.

Sakic on a good year gets about 50 goals while playing against opposing top lines and being able to shut them down and control the game with his speed and smarts. It's strange how 7-10 years makes everyone's memory fuzzy.

Being quietly effective and winning games without getting on the highlight reel is bad unless you're Swedish.

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08-11-2008, 07:47 AM
  #92
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I don't like Forsberg, never done so, but still it's hard to not see how good he was, Sakic is not far behind thou and Sundin is clearly number three between these.

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08-11-2008, 08:45 AM
  #93
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Two totally different players with two totally different styles. They both excelled phenominaly in their own way, it's all a matter of what you like. Forsberg's always been my favorite player so I'm biased towards him. I just feel he was a very unique player and I loved his combination of skill, grit, and smarts. He would become a totally different player in the playoffs and always was pounded on but never backed down. But then you look at Sakic, who's been one of the most consistent players the NHL's ever seen and also ups his game in the playoffs. He's got a completely different style, one that has made him very durable and extremely effective. To say he wasn't dominant is a joke, he just did it differently.

Anyways, one of the best 1-2 punches of all time.

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08-11-2008, 10:31 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilros View Post
You yourself said he was unnoticeable, why are we even arguing if you basically agree with me.

The selke last last 15 years have been awarded to a good 2-way player with alot of points points and a good +/-, the whole award is pathetic since it has nothing to with who the best defensive shutdown forward is. Sakic getting a nomination could just aswell happen to 50 other guys, most of the focussing alot more on defence than he ever did.


I said Sakic got the stats without visibly dominating, he was infact unnoticeable.

The best players takes over and dictate how the game is played, when they enter the rink. Sakic didn't, and you know it.
No actually, I am showing how Sakic dominated the game without being flashy or noticeable like Forsberg. And yes, he did dominate.

And yes, he dictated the game. Opposing teams put their top Defenders on Sakic just as much as they did Forsberg. More if you count that Sakic played on average 2-3 more minutes a game than Forsberg(More 1st line minutes). Sakic makes people on opposing teams nervous every time he is on the ice. You don't get top 10 in points 10 times(top five 5 times) while being solid defensively by NOT dominating.

Lidstrom dominates the Defensive zone without being flashy, yet to you, he gets a free pass because he is Swedish.

Whatever you think of the Selke voting, or the veracity of the trophy, Sakic was a better defensive forward than Forsberg. I posted the stats already. Sakic blocked more shots(Around double Forsberg's total blocked shots on average, even on his Hart year playing 15 less games), Sakic has far less giveaways, and Sakic has more takeaways + a better faceoff percentage. All this while almost always matching or bettering Forsberg in points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
I missed the comment you quoted since like most I have Bilros on the ignore, but I couldnt help but notice he said Sakic didnt dominate games but Bure did.

Bure skated figure 8's in the neutral zone waiting for a breakout pass. On a good year maybe he gets you 60 goals while being a liability every second he's on the ice.

Being quietly effective and winning games without getting on the highlight reel is bad unless you're Swedish.
Yep. Next coming is "Alfredsson was more dominant than Sakic" which would be a humongous joke.

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08-11-2008, 11:20 PM
  #95
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1a) Sakic
1b) Forsberg
2) Sundin
100% right:hand clap::hand clap:

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08-12-2008, 01:27 AM
  #96
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I will easily take the only guaranteed Hall of Famer in the group, Joe Sakic.

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08-12-2008, 02:28 AM
  #97
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I will easily take the only guaranteed Hall of Famer in the group, Joe Sakic.
If you don't think Forsberg's a lock for the HOF then you've got blinders on.

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08-12-2008, 02:31 AM
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If you don't think Forsberg's a lock for the HOF then you've got blinders on.
Likely yes, lock no...

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08-12-2008, 02:52 AM
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Likely yes, lock no...
Great AV by the way, but you're still wrong about this.

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08-12-2008, 05:40 AM
  #100
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No actually, I am showing how Sakic dominated the game without being flashy or noticeable like Forsberg. And yes, he did dominate.

And yes, he dictated the game. Opposing teams put their top Defenders on Sakic just as much as they did Forsberg. More if you count that Sakic played on average 2-3 more minutes a game than Forsberg(More 1st line minutes). Sakic makes people on opposing teams nervous every time he is on the ice. You don't get top 10 in points 10 times(top five 5 times) while being solid defensively by NOT dominating.

Lidstrom dominates the Defensive zone without being flashy, yet to you, he gets a free pass because he is Swedish.

Whatever you think of the Selke voting, or the veracity of the trophy, Sakic was a better defensive forward than Forsberg. I posted the stats already. Sakic blocked more shots(Around double Forsberg's total blocked shots on average, even on his Hart year playing 15 less games), Sakic has far less giveaways, and Sakic has more takeaways + a better faceoff percentage. All this while almost always matching or bettering Forsberg in points.



Yep. Next coming is "Alfredsson was more dominant than Sakic" which would be a humongous joke.

Forsberg had less icetime, since he gave more when he was on the ice.

Just like Lidström isn't as physical and gritty as alot of other defenders, which gives him more juice to play those extra minutes and be on top at the latter stages of his career. If he had a game with more focus on physique (IE hitting and getting in peoples faces) he wouldn't play 30 min/game at age 38-39, more like 22-23.

Look at the guys who played that game to its limit, Forsberg and Lindros.

One is retired, the other is but a shell of his former self. BUT, when they played and was at the top of their games, they brought everything and dominated every shift they made, Sakic never did.

But then there's the question; would you rather take Lindros & Foppa playing a softer game, having less of an importance to their team, but at the same time having a longer healthier career? I don't think that was ever the choice with those guys since they had that mentality, they were both all heart. Yeah, anyone who says Lindros played with no heart don't know their elbow from their @ss.


Which would you take.

Lidström & Sakic playing at 95% for 18 years

or

Forsberg & Lindros playing at 100% for 5 years


I'd take Sakic and Lidström, but for those 5 years, Forsberg & Lindros dominated the game in a way neither of the other two was capable of. And dominance can't be measured simply with stats.


And what I meant about Bure vs Sakic, was that Bure was more noticeable.

Anyone disputing that?

Ofcourse Sakic was the better over all player...

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