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Bobby Orr: Greatest Player of All Time?

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Old
08-10-2008, 02:35 PM
  #76
Inner Gear
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Are the two of you planning on breaking new ground at any point?
No, I'm not.

Wrap-up: greatest player of all time is player, who should be perfectly effective (being no.1 in his role) in any hockey era, current or past. As I stated, Bobby Orr is not such player, his point totals mostly due to enormous advantage of his skating skill in relation of his era's hockey players plus good ice vision and good (precise) passing. Projecting into current NHL - he would be very good defenceman, but no Art Ross.

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08-10-2008, 03:35 PM
  #77
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mario lemieux and bobby orr were the most dominant players over the last 40 yrs

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08-10-2008, 03:44 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post
Do you know definition of hockey talent? Talent composed of various components. Components of Gretzky's talent and Orr's talent is very different. Because of that, their game is different too.

There are TONS of players who changed the game forever.

Pierre Lapin invented stick curvature.
Bernie Geoffrion invented slapshot.

So what? Are they best players of all-time?

Which changes he benefited from? Why Gretzky was almost two times effective than Orr in terms of points?

Yes, his skating was unique (very speedy, non-typical for Canadian) - for 1970s. For now, his skating is not unique, just very good - much of Orr's style was based on his skating. Canadian skating school begin to change after 1979 Challenge Cup, because NHL players was badly outskated by Soviet players.


Ha-ha. How often Orr played centre? How often Orr played wing? Orr isn't complete player, no way. His is just genius - for his time.
Many people have argued that Gretzky would not have been as effective had he played in the 70's because the league was a harder hitting league and much rougher. Is that true? I sure wouldn't count on it.

Orr's skating was not just speedy, his skating was very deceptive, he would skate around or through just about anyone. I never have seen another player make the same kind of moves Orr made, he would turn on a dime at full speed, I have never seen another player who could make the moves he could make, including Bure. With the enforcement of hooking and holding rules in the NHL today, it might just make Orr that much better. When Orr played, people would hack him with their stick, hook him, hold him, trip him, and they were not called as penalties nearly as much as they are now.

The changes in the game that Gretzky benefited from is the way the defense would move up into the offensive play, Paul Coffey excelled at this and it was Orr who lead the way.

Geoffrion IMHO is one of the all time greats, I am not talking about equipment changes like curves on sticks, but Geoffrion is a good example.

I just don't understand why you want to minimize Orr's accomplishments, Orr and Gretzky did not play that very far apart.
1 year, Orr had no knees left at that time and Gretzky was a rookie, but the league did not all of a sudden become different over the course of one off season.
The league started to open up offensively when Orr was in his heyday, it was in response to Orr that it happened. It reached it's peak when Gretzky was playing. When the league started to tighten up again, Gretzky's point totals reflected that, he was also getting older but he never had to deal with the kind of injuries Orr had to deal with. Orr had more than a dozen surgeries on his knees.

Again, I am not arguing who is the best, it is close and a lot of people have different opinions. I am debating your claim that Gretzky is the undisputed best player ever. A claim that is obviously not true or you would not have one single person argue any different with you. I am not sure you understand what "undisputed" means.

undisputed
1570, "not argued with"-taken from dictionary.com

The mod is right, this is going in a circle. I will respond no further, peace.

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08-10-2008, 04:26 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post
Orr's game can be easily duplicated (defender-playmaker), but it will be ineffective in current hockey.
"Easily duplicated," eh? By whom?

And who cares if it would be ineffective in current hockey, as your Time Warp machine apparently informs you?

It was DOMINANT at the time that Orr was a player. That is all that matters.

The debate of "who is the greatest," is fun and often insightful. And subjective. A great, VALID case can be made for any of #4, #99 and #66.

But the lengths that some go to make their case simply re-enforces my signature (below).

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08-10-2008, 04:37 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
"Easily duplicated," eh? By whom?

And who cares if it would be ineffective in current hockey, as your Time Warp machine apparently informs you?

It was DOMINANT at the time that Orr was a player. That is all that matters.

The debate of "who is the greatest," is fun and often insightful. And subjective. A great, VALID case can be made for any of #4, #99 and #66.

But the lengths that some go to make their case simply re-enforces my signature (below).
to take your point a step further, you can define greatness a lot of ways but if you ever saw Orr, you'd know that you saw something unique, someone who just played at another level. If you weren't fortunate enough to have seen him, it's difficult to appreciate. I don't mean highlight film great, Orr was game 60 in a February game when the game was irrelevant great. To have seen Orr and still discount his place in history would be stupid.

'Easily duplicated', where does this stuff come from ?

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08-10-2008, 05:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post
No, I'm not.

Wrap-up: greatest player of all time is player, who should be perfectly effective (being no.1 in his role) in any hockey era, current or past. As I stated, Bobby Orr is not such player, his point totals mostly due to enormous advantage of his skating skill in relation of his era's hockey players plus good ice vision and good (precise) passing. Projecting into current NHL - he would be very good defenceman, but no Art Ross.
Uh, Orr had a massive advantage of several things outside of skating, with his eyes in the back of his head vision(Gretzky/Lemieux caliber vision), his perfect tape to tape passes and Snipers shot. Playmaking wasn't his only attribute. He was also nearly perfect in his own end, always in the correct position, shot blocking and taking away passing lanes. His takeaway rate was ridiculous too.

To say he "could not" win an Art Ross in this day and age is stretching it. It would depend completely on the sort of team he played on and if they decided to do what Boston did and Build around him and his style.

Orr would be even faster and more agile modern day, with the much better ice conditions and advanced Agility Skates + lighter gear and sticks + his knee would have lasted much longer with modern surgeries. In short, he would be like a faster, more agile Bure, but with the defense of Lidstrom.

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08-10-2008, 05:20 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Uh, Orr had a massive advantage of several things outside of skating, with his eyes in the back of his head vision(Gretzky/Lemieux caliber vision), his perfect tape to tape passes and Snipers shot. Playmaking wasn't his only attribute. He was also nearly perfect in his own end, always in the correct position, shot blocking and taking away passing lanes. His takeaway rate was ridiculous too.

To say he "could not" win an Art Ross in this day and age is stretching it. It would depend completely on the sort of team he played on and if they decided to do what Boston did and Build around him and his style.

Orr would be even faster and more agile modern day, with the much better ice conditions and advanced Agility Skates + lighter gear and sticks + his knee would have lasted much longer with modern surgeries. In short, he would be like a faster, more agile Bure, but with the defense of Lidstrom.

I think when we try and categorize Orr, we put too much effort inti individual skills. I'm not sure he was the flat out fatest guy back then. Was he faster than Cournoyer,Keon ? He was as fast as he had to be. He didn't leave guys in his dust, he simply skated away from them. I think that's why it's very hard to quantify why a guy was great. Sometimes you had to see him, hell, he just 'played' better.

Everything I've heard about Harvey points me to the same situation. Was he the most feared checker, best skater, best passer, hardest shot, hard to say, but everyone says he was the best player, or d man anyways.

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08-10-2008, 05:48 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I think when we try and categorize Orr, we put too much effort inti individual skills. I'm not sure he was the flat out fatest guy back then. Was he faster than Cournoyer,Keon ? He was as fast as he had to be. He didn't leave guys in his dust, he simply skated away from them. I think that's why it's very hard to quantify why a guy was great. Sometimes you had to see him, hell, he just 'played' better.

Everything I've heard about Harvey points me to the same situation. Was he the most feared checker, best skater, best passer, hardest shot, hard to say, but everyone says he was the best player, or d man anyways.
Bobby Hull was faster. So Was Cournoyer. Neither had the same skill as Orr at top speed though.

I have never heard anyone say Harvey was the most feared Checker though, nor do I remember it.

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08-10-2008, 05:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
"Easily duplicated," eh? By whom?

And who cares if it would be ineffective in current hockey, as your Time Warp machine apparently informs you?

It was DOMINANT at the time that Orr was a player. That is all that matters.

The debate of "who is the greatest," is fun and often insightful. And subjective. A great, VALID case can be made for any of #4, #99 and #66.

But the lengths that some go to make their case simply re-enforces my signature (below).
Remember he thinks Sergei Fedorov > Bobby Orr.

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08-10-2008, 07:11 PM
  #85
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Staying healthy is not a hockey skill. It is affected by style of play, luck and other dirty players. It never ceases to amaze me how people make blanket statements blaming players for getting injured.
Staying healthy (and playing through minor injuries) is absolutely a hockey skill - I never said that it wasn't affected by outside influences. But everything in hockey - including goalscoring, passing, and saving - is affected by outside influences, from how good your linemates are, to whom the opponents match up against you, even to how much icetime you get in the first place.

Obviously many injuries are out of a player's control. But I can't see how you can't see that some players are more prone to being injured - and for missing time when they are injured - than other players.

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08-10-2008, 07:45 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Gretzky played a quiet, simple brain game. he knew where everyone was, and has such a ridiculously quick release on his shots or passes that goaltenders just didn't have the reaction time to match it. He knew where everyone was on the ice without even looking half the time. His brain worked that fast.


He used to bank his goals off skates, legs and people. He just knew where the puck would end up. He could fire a shot into the boards and know exactly where it would end up based on how hard he shot it, and how fast it could get there. It was truly sickening to watch in his prime. He could also slap it from the blueline and send a lazer to any spot in the net. As a famous quote goes, "If you hung a dime from the net by a string, he could hit it every time."
Very well said.

And how many ridiculous "blind" tape-to-tape passes did he make a game? 10? 20? (Not all ending in goals of course, but all amazing to behold).





Last edited by lextune: 08-10-2008 at 07:55 PM.
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08-10-2008, 08:13 PM
  #87
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It's not just 'I think', it's opinion of very good hockey specialists. Gretzky is undisputed No.1 Canadian player.
Its being disputed right now...and it always will be. Not to take anything away from Gretzky, but IMO Orr was the greatest ever if you took the two players at their best. It is literally a pick 'em though. Both were so outstanding you cant go wrong with either...but it is not cut and dry either way.

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08-10-2008, 08:15 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post

In Los Angeles too?
Three seasons with 100+ assists in row. Orr has only one season with 100+ assists.
You cant possibly be this obtuse as to not realize that being a center vs being a defenseman will have some factor in this, can you?

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08-10-2008, 08:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post
No, I'm not.

Wrap-up: greatest player of all time is player, who should be perfectly effective (being no.1 in his role) in any hockey era, current or past. As I stated, Bobby Orr is not such player, his point totals mostly due to enormous advantage of his skating skill in relation of his era's hockey players plus good ice vision and good (precise) passing. Projecting into current NHL - he would be very good defenceman, but no Art Ross.
This is possibly the single dumbest thing posted on hfboards ever. Orr wasnt perfectly effective at being #1 in any era? Good god....than no defenseman has ever been close.

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08-10-2008, 08:25 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Inner Gear View Post
You confusing game and awards. Orr's game can be easily duplicated (defender-playmaker), but it will be ineffective in current hockey. It's impossible NOW to win Norris and Art Ross, playing like Orr.Maybe, some genius in future gets same award pack, but definitely his game will be different.

Best all-around player is Sergei Fedorov, who can play any position - centre, l/r wing, l/r defence. When Bobby Orr wins a Selke while playing centre, I will gladly change my opinion.
How about winning a scoring title while winning the Norris?

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08-10-2008, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Staying healthy (and playing through minor injuries) is absolutely a hockey skill - I never said that it wasn't affected by outside influences. But everything in hockey - including goalscoring, passing, and saving - is affected by outside influences, from how good your linemates are, to whom the opponents match up against you, even to how much icetime you get in the first place.

Obviously many injuries are out of a player's control. But I can't see how you can't see that some players are more prone to being injured - and for missing time when they are injured - than other players.
Some players are injury prone. That's why I said "blanket statement" in my earlier post. Don't paint all players whose careers were ended or shortened by injuries with the same brush.
I'll use Orr as an example as we are in an Orr thread. It's well known to those who watched him play that every team deliberately tried to injure him because there was no other effective way to stop him. Same with Lemieux. You can find quotes and clips of various players talking about it. Esposito comes to mind. Orr himself has said that people would say to him "they're trying to hurt you". But he just shrugs it off and humbly replies "it's a contact game and if you carry the puck a lot you're going to get hit a lot. And I was hit a lot." There are many clips you can find of the dirty hits used to slow him down. Check out some clips and watch for the Bill Barber knee on knee. Just brutal. But people blame Orr for his injuries. Maybe they're right. He shouldn't have been so damn great. If only he had settled for mediocrity. Maybe he could have played for 20 years.

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08-10-2008, 09:24 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
Some players are injury prone. That's why I said "blanket statement" in my earlier post. Don't paint all players whose careers were ended or shortened by injuries with the same brush.
You see - I didn't respond to that part, because I was sure that you weren't referring to me. I don't make blanket statements. Ever. (Irony duly noted)

Staying healthy is a hockey skill.

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08-10-2008, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
You see - I didn't respond to that part, because I was sure that you weren't referring to me. I don't make blanket statements. Ever. (Irony duly noted)

Staying healthy is a hockey skill.
Staying healthy is not a "hockey skill". Guys are hurt by fluke type injuries all the time that end up lingering for years. I understand the point you are trying to make, but calling it a skill seems pretty silly. Guys who play different types of games open themselves up to more opportunity for injury.

Staying healthy is often more the residue of luck more than anything else.

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08-10-2008, 10:25 PM
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I'm sorry that you find my opinions silly, but that's my opinion and I'm not going to change it just to win points.

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08-10-2008, 10:29 PM
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I'm sorry that you find my opinions silly, but that's my opinion and I'm not going to change it just to win points.
I am simply just questioning the logic. A guy who plays a soft game and never gets injured is more adept at a skill at a guy who goes all out helping his team win is less adept at the same skill? A guy who gets cheapshotted and blows out a knee and loses his career is lacking at this same "skill"? I just dont see the logic in it.

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08-10-2008, 10:47 PM
  #96
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I am simply just questioning the logic. A guy who plays a soft game and never gets injured is more adept at a skill at a guy who goes all out helping his team win is less adept at the same skill? A guy who gets cheapshotted and blows out a knee and loses his career is lacking at this same "skill"? I just dont see the logic in it.
Sorry, but Doc is right on some levels. Now I do not agree that staying healthy is 100% a skill, but it is under certain cases. In other cases, there is a luck/Dirty factor involved that cannot be ignored, but Orr is not one of those.

Willus, for every Dirty hit and bump Orr took, he had 3 non-dirty collisions for his attempts at flying through traffic at top speed which wreaked havoc on his knees.

The Original hit which started his knee problems was completely his fault, Trying to jump over a hipcheck along the boards, crunching his knee into the board. The fact that he would just tape his injuries/knees up and not rest until healthy made them far worse in the long run.

Now, when you pit a guy like Lidstrom against Bourque and compare their careers, one major thing that sticks out is that until this past year, Lidstrom had only missed 14 games in his entire 15+ year career. The reason being his style does not take a toll on his body. Bourque crashed and banged a bit more, and flew through traffic carrying the puck into the zone a bit more, causing collisions, so he missed more games. Bourque > Lidstrom, but its still a cog in Lidstrom's favor, and it definitely is a skill with him.


Each player needs to be taken in a case by case context when debating this because calling it a skill is a fine line sometimes.

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08-10-2008, 11:08 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Sorry, but Doc is right on some levels. Now I do not agree that staying healthy is 100% a skill, but it is under certain cases. In other cases, there is a luck/Dirty factor involved that cannot be ignored, but Orr is not one of those.

Willus, for every Dirty hit and bump Orr took, he had 3 non-dirty collisions for his attempts at flying through traffic at top speed which wreaked havoc on his knees.

The Original hit which started his knee problems was completely his fault, Trying to jump over a hipcheck along the boards, crunching his knee into the board. The fact that he would just tape his injuries/knees up and not rest until healthy made them far worse in the long run.

Now, when you pit a guy like Lidstrom against Bourque and compare their careers, one major thing that sticks out is that until this past year, Lidstrom had only missed 14 games in his entire 15+ year career. The reason being his style does not take a toll on his body. Bourque crashed and banged a bit more, and flew through traffic carrying the puck into the zone a bit more, causing collisions, so he missed more games. Bourque > Lidstrom, but its still a cog in Lidstrom's favor, and it definitely is a skill with him.


Each player needs to be taken in a case by case context when debating this because calling it a skill is a fine line sometimes.
Gretzky is also a really good example of this. Always plays with his head up like Lidstrom, was good at avoiding checks, and just simply made smart plays all the time rather than flying through traffic. Now with that said, there are other guys who play like them who do get injured quite often, and there are lots who have played very rough and physical who don't really get injured very much, so yes it does have to do with luck also, and you can't really control what another guys going to do you just have to keep your head up I guess, something Lindros didn't do and it cost him.

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08-10-2008, 11:14 PM
  #98
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Gretzky is also a really good example of this. Always plays with his head up like Lidstrom, was good at avoiding checks, and just simply made smart plays all the time rather than flying through traffic. Now with that said, there are other guys who play like them who do get injured quite often, and there are lots who have played very rough and physical who don't really get injured very much, so yes it does have to do with luck also, and you can't really control what another guys going to do you just have to keep your head up I guess, something Lindros didn't do and it cost him.
The other side of the coin I was talking about would be a case like Bossy, where the player really had little control over his injuries. He played a very clean, keep your head up and do not rush through traffic kind of game for the most part. But the punishment he was delt from crosschecks to the back just wrecked him. Not his fault.

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08-10-2008, 11:18 PM
  #99
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Agreed. And one thing I've never said is that injuries are 100% the player's fault. I've never even said that they're half the player's fault, or 1/4, or whatever.

But there's at least some amount of control which a player has over his injury situation.

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08-10-2008, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
You see - I didn't respond to that part, because I was sure that you weren't referring to me. I don't make blanket statements. Ever. (Irony duly noted)

Staying healthy is a hockey skill.
Not when people are intentionally trying to injure you ...not just hurt you or check you...deliberately try to cut your career short if some dbag has that mindset how can you continually avoid it?

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