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The Most Overrated Player

View Poll Results: Who is the most overrated?
Rick Nash 13 12.15%
Dany Heatley 4 3.74%
Jeff Carter 21 19.63%
Chris Higgins 26 24.30%
Anze Kopitar 2 1.87%
Alexander Frolov 4 3.74%
Other (Include in reply) 37 34.58%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by The Big Swede View Post
Mogilny you mean?

That's for one season

What did he do when he left To and wasn't with Mats anymore?

Alfie has never been as consistent as Mats

Suddenly the last couple of years his stats went up, I'm not saying hes not good,just dont deny hes a much better player with Spezza and Heatley around him
He put up 80 points playing with Bonk and White..

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08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Alfredsson View Post
He put up 80 points playing with Bonk and White..
Sundin has put up multiple 80 point season playing with Garry Valk and Jonas Hoglund

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08-13-2008, 02:21 AM
  #128
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IMO the whole Detroit Red Wings team is overrated. Lidstrom is only good because of Zetterberg, Zetterberg is only good because of Lidstrom and the system makes them all better than they really are. Zetterberg is the best two-way forward in the world. Live with it, embrace it, accept it.
...I think you forgot the sarcasm smiley when talking about Lidstrom. There is only one player in the League who never plays badly. I am convinced that when he retires (hopefully soon so markov might one day have a chance at the norris) Detroit will not be nearly as good.

their only slump last year... when he was injured.

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08-13-2008, 02:24 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by kingswillwinthecup View Post
You're terribly misinformed. I don't think any Kings' fan in the world believes that Frolov is better than one of Ottawa's big three.

I suggest you stay up past your bed time to watch some Kings' games, though. Your ignorance is staggering.
Kelowna is in British Columbia... So he is on the west coast.

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08-13-2008, 10:49 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Kikizaz View Post
Kelowna is in British Columbia... So he is on the west coast.
But I moved a month ago from Manitoba, so he thinks I know nothing of the Kings

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08-13-2008, 12:26 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by The Big Swede View Post
Sundin has put up multiple 80 point season playing with Garry Valk and Jonas Hoglund
What the hell ...He probably only played like one game with mats...

Joe Newenduyk
Jason Blake
Gary Roberts
Owen Nolan
Antropov
Moginly

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08-13-2008, 12:56 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Cogliano13Gagner89 View Post
Do you ever even watch the Sens play? The guy is arguably the hardest working player in the league. He does absolutely everything for the Sens. He can score, pass, skate, defend and kill penalties....Alfredsson is underrated not overrated. And when people say that Spezza and Heatley are the best players on the Sens, there wrong. It's Alfredsson. I wish the Oilers had a player half of what Alfredsson is.
Thank you for summing that up so well, non-Senators fan.

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08-13-2008, 01:24 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Alfredsson View Post
Alfredsson also played with crappy teamates pre lockout. Yuo dont hear Sens fasn complaining.
And Sundin had good teamates and moginley actually outproduced Mats.
Exactly. I Hate people that underrate Alfie, him, definately helps the franchise out. People think its all about scoring points, without him, Heatley would struggle to score 50 every year. Great leadership. Everybody should just face it, Ottawa has the best 3 in the enitre league.

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Old
08-13-2008, 03:00 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Super Sniper Cele View Post
I don't think any of those players are overrated. May I ask why you do?
Agreed!!!.....where is Aucion, Campbell, Briere...

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Old
08-13-2008, 04:28 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Nashology View Post
1st in Wins
3rd in Shutouts
3rd in GAA

opposed to Brodeur

2nd in Wins
9th in Shutouts
5th in GAA


San Jose doesn't allow many shots per game. Goalies who only face 15-20 shots a game will generally have low Save %s. If he had a high Save% his GAA would be like 1. Other than GAA, Nabby has Brodeur beat in every goaltending category. It isn't like Brodeur was top 5 either in Save Percentage.

Wishful speculation on your part.

I, on the other hand, have actually computed the correlation between save percentage (for the top 30 goaltenders who faced >600 shots in a particular year) and the amount of shots that they faced in that particular year (per minute played).

Here are the results for the last five seasons:

Yearr-sv% and SA/minuteSignificance? (p<0.05)
07-080.24NO
06-070.02NO
05-060.04NO
03-040.31YES
02-03-0.19NO

As you can see, there isn't much evidence that save percentage is prejudicial to goalies who face fewer shots.

Only one (03-04) of the correlations was statistically significant, another (07-08) was in the predicted direction but not significant, two (06-07 and 05-06) were effectively nill, and one (02-03) was actually in the opposite direction.


Last edited by Master_Of_Districts: 08-13-2008 at 04:36 PM.
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08-13-2008, 05:08 PM
  #136
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Higgins is overrated by who exactly? There are many Habs fans who consider him a third liner.

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08-13-2008, 11:07 PM
  #137
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Phaneuf by a long shot IMO.

Too bad they never show all his bad defensive plays on the highlights, and instead put in hits that take him out of the play and give the other team a 2-1.

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08-13-2008, 11:11 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Cogliano13Gagner89 View Post
Do you ever even watch the Sens play? The guy is arguably the hardest working player in the league. He does absolutely everything for the Sens. He can score, pass, skate, defend and kill penalties....Alfredsson is underrated not overrated. And when people say that Spezza and Heatley are the best players on the Sens, there wrong. It's Alfredsson. I wish the Oilers had a player half of what Alfredsson is.
This is exactly right.

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08-13-2008, 11:17 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
I, on the other hand, have actually computed the correlation between save percentage (for the top 30 goaltenders who faced >600 shots in a particular year) and the amount of shots that they faced in that particular year (per minute played).
To further support this, let's go back to the 1980s:

SeasonCorrelation
1981-820.17
1982-83-0.32
1983-840.15
1984-850.14
1985-860.25
1986-870.08

Source: Iain Fyffe, "Goaltender Perseverance: a meaningless stat". (link)

The author doesn't calculate statistical significance but, at best, only '83 and '86 would be significant at the 95% level. The problem is the correlations are in opposite directions so it doesn't prove a predictable relationship.

People often claim that fewer shots allowed results in a lower save percentage (usually the people claiming this are fans of goalies that play on good defensive teams). However, nobody has actually been able to prove that any systematic relationship between shots allowed and save percentage exists. The data consistently shows a random relationship. My conclusion is that either shots allowed & save percentage are independent, or, if a causal relationship exists, it's so small that it has no discernible impact on the data.

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Old
08-13-2008, 11:18 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredsson View Post
What the hell ...He probably only played like one game with mats...

Joe Newenduyk
Jason Blake
Gary Roberts
Owen Nolan
Antropov
Moginly
Joe was a center he never played with Mats

Blake like maybe 40 games with Mats we all know how well that went

Roberts,Mogiliny,Antropov, all had career years playing with Mats funny no?

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08-14-2008, 01:21 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
To further support this, let's go back to the 1980s:

SeasonCorrelation
1981-820.17
1982-83-0.32
1983-840.15
1984-850.14
1985-860.25
1986-870.08

Source: Iain Fyffe, "Goaltender Perseverance: a meaningless stat". (link)

The author doesn't calculate statistical significance but, at best, only '83 and '86 would be significant at the 95% level. The problem is the correlations are in opposite directions so it doesn't prove a predictable relationship.

People often claim that fewer shots allowed results in a lower save percentage (usually the people claiming this are fans of goalies that play on good defensive teams). However, nobody has actually been able to prove that any systematic relationship between shots allowed and save percentage exists. The data consistently shows a random relationship. My conclusion is that either shots allowed & save percentage are independent, or, if a causal relationship exists, it's so small that it has no discernible impact on the data.


The link provided is interesting because the author actually attempts to refute the opposite argument -- the notion that there is a negative correlation between save percentage and shots against.

However, the important part, I think, is that the relevant data, whether from the mid 80s or more recently, fails to provide any evidence for a relationship between shots against and save percentage.

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08-14-2008, 01:30 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
But I moved a month ago from Manitoba, so he thinks I know nothing of the Kings
You think Kopitar and Frolov are overrated. Absolutely no one who watches them on a consistent basis, Kings' fan or not, thinks this. So either: 1. you haven't seen them play that much and are basing such an opinion on numbers alone; 2. you're below average intelligence; or 3. both.

I take option 3.

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08-14-2008, 01:36 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by The Big Swede View Post
Joe was a center he never played with Mats

Blake like maybe 40 games with Mats we all know how well that went

Roberts,Mogiliny,Antropov, all had career years playing with Mats funny no?

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08-14-2008, 01:37 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by kingswillwinthecup View Post
You think Kopitar and Frolov are overrated. Absolutely no one who watches them on a consistent basis, Kings' fan or not, thinks this. So either: 1. you haven't seen them play that much and are basing such an opinion on numbers alone; 2. you're below average intelligence; or 3. both.

I take option 3.
lol, trolling/flaming.

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08-14-2008, 02:34 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by MetalheadSen View Post
lol, trolling/flaming.
edit: nm not worth another infraction

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08-14-2008, 02:48 AM
  #146
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...I think you forgot the sarcasm smiley when talking about Lidstrom. There is only one player in the League who never plays badly. I am convinced that when he retires (hopefully soon so markov might one day have a chance at the norris) Detroit will not be nearly as good.

their only slump last year... when he was injured.
You're actually incorrect. They had lost their last 6 games (1 in OT) and then he got hurt in the game against Colorado in which they won. They then lost 4 straight (1 in OT), beat the Sabres and Blues. To say there was a direct relationship between Lidstrom's injury and the Wings' slump last year is incorrect as the slump simply continued, not started as they lost 6 straight with him in the line up.

Most overrated in the league IMO is probably Phaneuf. I really like the guy but his defensive game simply still has a lot of flaws IMO.

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08-14-2008, 10:02 AM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post


The link provided is interesting because the author actually attempts to refute the opposite argument -- the notion that there is a negative correlation between save percentage and shots against.

However, the important part, I think, is that the relevant data, whether from the mid 80s or more recently, fails to provide any evidence for a relationship between shots against and save percentage.
That stat is bit of a generalization though. There are differences in systems that would have to be considered a variable not calculated in those numbers; for example the 4 teams with the lowest shots against/game in the NHL this season:

Detroit:
Chris Osgood - .914

New York:
Henrik Lundqvist -9.12

San Jose:
Evgeni Nabakov - .910

Dallas:
Marty Turco - .909

Probably four of the best goaltenders in the league, right? Better then Lehtonen, Biron, Vokoun, Backstrom, Price, Thomas and Ellis at any rate? The later list of goaltenders all have significantly higher shots/game and better save percentages.

You'd have to think there's a common sense argument involving high percentage shots and the elimination of low-percentage shots in a system like, say, the Dallas Stars organization? If your teammates aren't allowing shots from the outside into the crest and the ratio of good scoring chances to total shots is higher because of it, it only makes sense that a goaltenders save percentage would suffer. Even if the blanket stats don't support the argument.

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08-14-2008, 10:45 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Eh... I would take Spezza on my team before Alfredsson, I would take Heatley after Spezza but before Alfredsson.
No friggin way man. As an unbias Sabres fan, Alfredsson might be the most underrated player in the league, and is 100x the overall player Heatley and Spezza wish they could be.

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08-14-2008, 10:51 AM
  #149
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Yes, Spezza is my favourite player in the league.
I've seen that a lot on this thread alone. Why? He might be among the more talented players but he's a huge ***** as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post

I still fail to see why Heatley is in this poll and not Zetterberg.
Is this a joke? Zetterberg the guy who was just the best player in the playoffs hands down, more overrated than a guy with a hard slap shot who feeds off his ultra-skilled linemates. Zetterberg is so much better than Heatley it shouldn't even be talked about.

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08-14-2008, 11:05 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingswillwinthecup View Post
You think Kopitar and Frolov are overrated. Absolutely no one who watches them on a consistent basis, Kings' fan or not, thinks this. So either: 1. you haven't seen them play that much and are basing such an opinion on numbers alone; 2. you're below average intelligence; or 3. both.

I take option 3.
I have already explained this to you doppy, Kings fan overrvalue Frolov and Kopitar saying Kopitar is at of Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin is plain homerism, and anyone who thinks Frolov is better than Alfredsson/Spezza/Heatley is also a homer

And all the people who thought that were L.A fans, so obviously you are unaware of the posts and people around you and you are either: 1. An extreme homer who thinks that he isn't a homer, or 2. below the average intelligence

K.O

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