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The Everything Mats Sundin Thread

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Old
08-19-2008, 07:39 PM
  #251
Radek27
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He is being replaced by Redden, not a rookie.

Staal/Redden
Mara/Girardi
Kalinen/Pock/Potter/Sangs

I just don't see that huge of a downgrade like you guys do. At the same time the offense would be getting a HUGE upgrade. Small defensive downgrade for a large offensive upgrade. And if all 3 of Pock, Potter, and Sangs don't work out there is a thing called trade or even better, waivers. Plus you would have to think we would get a lower cost dman back in any deal for Rozy. Now we are talkin about replacing Strudwick which shouldn't really be that hard should it?

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08-19-2008, 07:53 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I disagree with the Pock comment. I thought on his last stint Pock played very well. He sure didn't do anything in my eyes to earn a year in the minors. He looked better than last time than his first two attempts to stick. I don't know I like Pock and think he's gotten the shaft from Slats. But then again I thought Immonen looked good when he was up.....
That explains everything. Immonen was slow as hell. I could walk through mud faster than he could skate.

Pock stunk as well. He was a constant liability. At times he seemed to forget his position and decide to be a winger instead.

I don't think you're giving Rozsival enough credit. This guy played top pairing minutes and for the most part, did a fine job. And besides, what if Redden or Staal goes down with an injury. Are Girardi, Kalinin, and Mara the guys you want to step up? Not me. I want the guy who's played top pairing minutes for the past three seasons. He's been there, done that.

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08-19-2008, 07:53 PM
  #253
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I'm sorry....seeing it on paper like that scares me. That is not the defense of a serious Cup contender. Don't forget that we traded Tyutin. Yeah Backman too, but that's no big deal.

Redden: a major question mark regarding his ability to play in the post lockout NHL.

Mara: lost his job in the top 6 rotation last year.

Kalinin: talented but injuries are a problem.

Seeing it on paper makes me realize even more how much we need Rozy.

We need to maximize Henrik's abilities (and he is the heart of the team) by surrounding him with the best defense corp possible. Right now, that means Roszival.

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08-19-2008, 07:59 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
He is being replaced by Redden, not a rookie.

Staal/Redden
Mara/Girardi
Kalinen/Pock/Potter/Sangs

I just don't see that huge of a downgrade like you guys do. At the same time the offense would be getting a HUGE upgrade. Small defensive downgrade for a large offensive upgrade. And if all 3 of Pock, Potter, and Sangs don't work out there is a thing called trade or even better, waivers. Plus you would have to think we would get a lower cost dman back in any deal for Rozy. Now we are talkin about replacing Strudwick which shouldn't really be that hard should it?
That's bad asset management. We trade Rozsival who is signed at a reasonable deal for a year rental in Sundin and Potter, Pock, and Sangs (Who isn't ready period) all flop. How are we going to pull off a trade? Staal? Redden? Pock, Potter, Mara, and Kalinin won't fetch anything substantial. Waivers? Who are we going to waive, Pock? Great, that leaves us with another spot to fill with another d-man rookie (which we have none of that will be ready).

Bad asset management.

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08-19-2008, 07:59 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
I'm sorry....seeing it on paper like that scares me. That is not the defense of a serious Cup contender. Don't forget that we traded Tyutin. Yeah Backman too, but that's no big deal.

Redden: a major question mark regarding his ability to play in the post lockout NHL.

Mara: lost his job in the top 6 rotation last year.

Kalinin: talented but injuries are a problem.

Seeing it on paper makes me realize even more how much we need Rozy.

We need to maximize Henrik's abilities (and he is the heart of the team) by surrounding him with the best defense corp possible. Right now, that means Roszival.
Maybe i'm coming off wrong I dunno. I'm not sayin Rozy is terrible. I'm not even saying he's not worth his contract. What I am saying is I don't think he is an untouchable defender if you can improve your club elsewhere. And if you really think about it, if Rozy is that important and is our best dman like you outlines above, something is wrong to begin with.

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08-19-2008, 08:03 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
That explains everything. Immonen was slow as hell. I could walk through mud faster than he could skate.

Pock stunk as well. He was a constant liability. At times he seemed to forget his position and decide to be a winger instead.

I don't think you're giving Rozsival enough credit. This guy played top pairing minutes and for the most part, did a fine job. And besides, what if Redden or Staal goes down with an injury. Are Girardi, Kalinin, and Mara the guys you want to step up? Not me. I want the guy who's played top pairing minutes for the past three seasons. He's been there, done that.
So what he was slow, he had good vision on the ice and I thought did well on his offensive chances. There were plenty of great NHL players who weren't speedsters.

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08-19-2008, 08:09 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
That's bad asset management. We trade Rozsival who is signed at a reasonable deal for a year rental in Sundin and Potter, Pock, and Sangs (Who isn't ready period) all flop. How are we going to pull off a trade? Staal? Redden? Pock, Potter, Mara, and Kalinin won't fetch anything substantial. Waivers? Who are we going to waive, Pock? Great, that leaves us with another spot to fill with another d-man rookie (which we have none of that will be ready).

Bad asset management.
No no no. I meant we could always trade for another dman. There are guys available for 4th rounders and later. Also waivers is another option.......plenty of D go through waivers every season. I'm sure we could grab someone off of there who can atleast do the job of a Strudwick. Plus like I said we will get something in return for Rozy.

And how unlikely is the senario that all 3 of Potter, Pock, and Sangs completely bomb in the 6th dman position? I just don't see it.

I said it before we are full of 2nd pair defenders.......what does it hurt losing one that costs 5 mil?

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08-19-2008, 08:54 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
No no no. I meant we could always trade for another dman. There are guys available for 4th rounders and later. Also waivers is another option.......plenty of D go through waivers every season. I'm sure we could grab someone off of there who can atleast do the job of a Strudwick. Plus like I said we will get something in return for Rozy.

And how unlikely is the senario that all 3 of Potter, Pock, and Sangs completely bomb in the 6th dman position? I just don't see it.

I said it before we are full of 2nd pair defenders.......what does it hurt losing one that costs 5 mil?
None of those defenseman you mentioned have proven anything at the NHL level, and neither are even close to being an adequate replacement for Roszival. Rozsival may not be a true first pairing defenseman, but he has plenty of experience in that role, so if something goes wrong he can always step in.

Rozsival is not getting traded

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08-19-2008, 09:28 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
No no no. I meant we could always trade for another dman. There are guys available for 4th rounders and later. Also waivers is another option.......plenty of D go through waivers every season. I'm sure we could grab someone off of there who can atleast do the job of a Strudwick. Plus like I said we will get something in return for Rozy.

And how unlikely is the senario that all 3 of Potter, Pock, and Sangs completely bomb in the 6th dman position? I just don't see it.

I said it before we are full of 2nd pair defenders.......what does it hurt losing one that costs 5 mil?
You keep saying that but it doesn't make any sense. Who are you putting into the category of '1st pair defenders'? Lidstrom? Chara? Phaneuf? Pronger? Yeah. That's not 1st pair defenders, that's elite defenders.

Rozsival has had good stats 3 seasons in a row, on the first pair, and has played it wonderfully with minimal mistakes after being a 3rd pair guy pre-lockout. Rozsival is a first pairing defenseman, who would probably play even better as a 3rd or 4th, though (although we don't know how this would actually turn out - it's speculation).

Staal is ready for the first pair, he played it beautifully all last season while he was on the first pair.

Redden is a first pair defenseman by default. Old Redden or Redden from last season and two seasons ago is a first pair defenseman. Just because people have bad blunders, (Malik mainly), doesn't mean they aren't 1st pair defenders.

We have 3 legitimate 1st pair defenders with one of them itching to become one soon (Girardi).

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08-19-2008, 10:14 PM
  #260
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So what he was slow, he had good vision on the ice and I thought did well on his offensive chances. There were plenty of great NHL players who weren't speedsters.
Post lock out? I don't think so buddy.

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08-19-2008, 10:14 PM
  #261
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Maybe the way to look at it is to figure that there are 60 first pair defensemen in the league (30 teams X 2). Are there 60 defensemen in the league better than Roszival? I don't think so. Yes, we can sit here and draw up lists; but remember that we don't see other teams on a day in, day out basis and so miss many of the mistakes other defensemen make. No, he's not elite, maybe not all star quality, but he's darn good. Seeing him nightly magnifies his mistakes in our eyes. He is a first pair defensemen, even though sometimes it seems as if, with mixing and matching, that we don't play a shut down D pairing. Staal will likely surpass Roszival this year as our #1 Dman. It is a weakness of the team that they don't have an elite defenseman. Over the last two years, I thought we made up for it by being strong 1 through 6. Even with Roszival that could be a problem this year. Frankly, I'm totally against trading Prucha to dump salary, but if I could, I might consider trading him for a 3rd pair Dman just to give us some depth at this position.
I'll repeat what I said earlier: you can never have enough defensemen.

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08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
  #262
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Getting Sundin wouldn't hurt, but I don't think he would be a huge difference maker.

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08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
  #263
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I, personally, am totally against trading Rozsival. Our d-core looks better than it has in years.

I'm totally cool with going to war with the troops we have assembled at this very moment. Stanley Cup? No... not this year, but we have a young core ready to make a run at it soon.

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08-19-2008, 11:07 PM
  #264
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I, personally, am totally against trading Rozsival. Our d-core looks better than it has in years.

I'm totally cool with going to war with the troops we have assembled at this very moment. Stanley Cup? No... not this year, but we have a young core ready to make a run at it soon.
We're set at net and defense, the only real weak area is the forwards. No reason to put us back in a position where the forwards and defense need to be worked on. The only trade on defense that makes sense is if its for an upgrade on defense.

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08-20-2008, 06:56 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
We need to maximize Henrik's abilities (and he is the heart of the team) by surrounding him with the best defense corp possible. Right now, that means Roszival.

Don't get me wrong he is a great goaltender, But I don't think he is the heart of the team. The heart of the team is usually a captain how Mark Messier was

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08-20-2008, 08:14 AM
  #266
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Don't get me wrong he is a great goaltender, But I don't think he is the heart of the team. The heart of the team is usually a captain how Mark Messier was
FYI - goalies can't be captains. So, for the record, no goalie has ever been able to fill this criterion. Therefore, by your logic, no goalie has ever been the heart of a team.

Roy, Brodeur, Plante...

Henrik Lundqvist is definitely the heart of this team.

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08-20-2008, 08:53 AM
  #267
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Hey, if Sundin really wants to play in New York, maybe he should go to the Jets and catch passes from Favre. They can form their own "I'm retiring, I'm not retiring, I'm retiring....etc." pass combination.

As for heart of the team: you can't compare anyone to Mess. I've been a sports fan for over 50 years and Messier was the most unique athlete I've ever seen in any sport. A one of a kind player.

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08-20-2008, 09:07 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
I, personally, am totally against trading Rozsival. Our d-core looks better than it has in years.

I'm totally cool with going to war with the troops we have assembled at this very moment. Stanley Cup? No... not this year, but we have a young core ready to make a run at it soon.

+1

Frankly, even if we do add Sundin, I don't see us as a lock for anything. I'd much rather take our chances with what we have than try and buy another 2nd round knock out.

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08-20-2008, 09:15 AM
  #269
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Getting Sundin wouldn't hurt, but I don't think he would be a huge difference maker.
See that is the problem.

He probably wouldn't be a big factor, and consider who we would shed to get him under the cap and who he blocks, yes it would hurt.

At 37 (turns 38 mid season) he shouldn't be getting big contracts, not from us.

Shed Rissmiller, Voros, and maybe Prucha, if signing for 3 mil at his age is not good enough, then let him handcuff another team.

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08-20-2008, 11:27 AM
  #270
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See that is the problem.

He probably wouldn't be a big factor, and consider who we would shed to get him under the cap and who he blocks, yes it would hurt.

At 37 (turns 38 mid season) he shouldn't be getting big contracts, not from us.

Shed Rissmiller, Voros, and maybe Prucha, if signing for 3 mil at his age is not good enough, then let him handcuff another team.
Its funny, because despite the fact that I don't want Sundin unless he comes cheap for one year and the Rangers dont lose anything of substance (which most likely wont happen anyway) - I do believe he would make a difference.

It wouldnt be on the level of a Messier per say, but his impact would spread the lines out evenly, and complete a much more dangerous assault IMO, as well as upgrading the PP and PK.

I'm not head over heels for the guy, especially because hes going to bring this team back to familiar ground with his personality and aura (See, Jagr & Messiers second tour) something I think the Rangers tried to shed by letting Jagr go...but he's had very little to work with in Toronto the past few years, specifically last year - and managed extremely good numbers.

Having a line with Naslund and Sundin only to have another with Gomez and Drury would be very difficult to contain, paired with Hank and the improved defense (given it remains intact)

I'm kind of impartial about the idea of Sundin. I'm on the fence and a lot of it has to do about what the Rangers have to do to make him fit and for how long.

But I'll stick with my gut and its to pass on him.

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08-20-2008, 11:47 AM
  #271
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Its funny, because despite the fact that I don't want Sundin unless he comes cheap for one year and the Rangers dont lose anything of substance (which most likely wont happen anyway) - I do believe he would make a difference.

It wouldnt be on the level of a Messier per say, but his impact would spread the lines out evenly, and complete a much more dangerous assault IMO, as well as upgrading the PP and PK.

I'm not head over heels for the guy, especially because hes going to bring this team back to familiar ground with his personality and aura (See, Jagr & Messiers second tour) something I think the Rangers tried to shed by letting Jagr go...but he's had very little to work with in Toronto the past few years, specifically last year - and managed extremely good numbers.

Having a line with Naslund and Sundin only to have another with Gomez and Drury would be very difficult to contain, paired with Hank and the improved defense (given it remains intact)

I'm kind of impartial about the idea of Sundin. I'm on the fence and a lot of it has to do about what the Rangers have to do to make him fit and for how long.

But I'll stick with my gut and its to pass on him.
Well to an extent he would make an impact. But i don't think he would be the difference that gets us past the second round. Or the difference that gets us a playoff position at all.

This is not Kovalchuk we are talking about. Someone who guarantees double the amount of goals of anyone else on the roster. Someone who dominates games. This is a guy who, despite still being good, is looking at his swansong seasons.

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08-20-2008, 11:54 AM
  #272
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I dont think theres any question that Sundin would be 1st or 2nd on this team in points if he came aboard

Thats "not making an impact?"

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08-20-2008, 12:04 PM
  #273
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I dont think theres any question that Sundin would be 1st or 2nd on this team in points if he came aboard

Thats "not making an impact?"
Of course that's making a huge impact. Another point that some miss is that Sundin doesn't just help with his skills, he helps by pushing other players down a notch to where they will compare more favorably against the players they will be matched against.

I'm not saying I want him at any price but at a reasonable price you take him and laugh your way into the Playoffs.

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08-20-2008, 12:14 PM
  #274
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Of course that's making a huge impact. Another point that some miss is that Sundin doesn't just help with his skills, he helps by pushing other players down a notch to where they will compare more favorably against the players they will be matched against.

I'm not saying I want him at any price but at a reasonable price you take him and laugh your way into the Playoffs.
also, he fills the jagr role of being a big strong guy who the other team feels obliged to toss out top dmen against. he'll tire them down a LOT and make space for smaller guys to get into scoring positions.

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08-20-2008, 12:14 PM
  #275
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I dont think theres any question that Sundin would be 1st or 2nd on this team in points if he came aboard

Thats "not making an impact?"
Theres no guarantee at all that he would do that. None. Not at 37 years old.

I don't think Sundin is carrying this or any team.

I would take him if he came cheap. If we have to move Rozsival or another key player to fit him in, no way.

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