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Old
08-14-2008, 04:57 PM
  #876
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
Apparently saying that not cooperating with the cop was a stupid idea means we are condoning the shooting.

Saying that not cooperating was stupid, that resisting was beyond stupid and that the shooting was a tragic error/mistake( or what ever you want to call it) aren't mutually exclusive.
Nope.
Not cooperating is stupid indeed. Resisting an arrest is even dumber, I agree. I never argued that.
I argued that depending what it says in his probation file, him refusing to cooperate doesn't justify force used against him.
I also questioned why would he be arrested to which most responded because of his non-cooperative attitude. This again, is depending on what it says in his probation file. Seeing as we don't know what it says in his file, we cannot claim his arrest was justified, and according to his lawyer, he wasn't breaking his probation nor restrictions. So from that, we can draw the police had no reason to arrest him.

You then proceeded an ongoing debate that any citizen is obliged to cooperate, which is false.
We also debated on when the level of physical force should come into play when Cops seem to be stuck with a stubborn fellow or any other citizen for that matter.

I never once claimed he was right to not cooperate and then shrug off the officer. That was completely stupid, but this is a criminal living in the ghetto with an attitude. You can expect such idiocy from him, therefore you should be prepared and try to approach the situation in a more humane way, instead of the tough cop crap.

I said the Cops handled it badly and the victims as well. Everybody acted wrong, but I focused more on the Cops seeing as most people were turning a blind eye towards any wrong doing from the cops.

I've said time and time again that we should wait for the investigation to be finalized, but as of now there are a lot of contradictions in the police's story. That's pretty much it.


Last edited by Kriss E: 08-14-2008 at 05:03 PM.
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Old
08-14-2008, 04:57 PM
  #877
Fido22
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Everybody, let's gang up on Moester and jump him!


Wait, he has a gun!!!


RUN!

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Old
08-14-2008, 04:58 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Fido22 View Post
Everybody, let's gang up on Moester and jump him!


Wait, he has a gun!!!
His hands are in his pocket!! His hands are in his pocket!!

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Old
08-14-2008, 05:10 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by AD View Post
His hands are in his pocket!! His hands are in his pocket!!
But how much trouble can I get into with just one hand ?


(Kids in the Hall reference)

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Old
08-14-2008, 05:10 PM
  #880
znk
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Nope.
Not cooperating is stupid indeed. Resisting an arrest is even dumber, I agree. I never argued that.
I argued that depending what it says in his probation file, him refusing to cooperate doesn't justify force used against him.
...
From that point on it's all speculation. Why even argue about it?
You are speculating that use of force wasn't justified. Why not wait until the investigation is complete?


Quote:
You then proceeded an ongoing debate that any citizen is obliged to cooperate, which is false.
We also debated on when the level of physical force should come into play when Cops seem to be stuck with a stubborn fellow or any other citizen for that matter.
On an other part of the issue all I can say is that if people just have to tell no to an officer in a public area to avoid answering to something(anything) well that's pretty messed up.
Fictive story.
Guy stuffs drugs in his pockets.
Cop: "Hey you I think you just put some drugs in your pockets. Show us what you've got there"
Guy: "No"
Cop: "Well then give me some Id since I cant detain you without a warrant I'm going to need it for when I have that warrant."
Guy: "No"
Cop: "Well you just stay here I will call to ask for some sort of help"
Guy: "No"
Guy walks away.
Cop: "Wait wait! Here is the number to the police station call tomorrow! Ask for Bob!"

Is that how things are supposed to go? At what point can the cop say "Ok buster you aint going nowhere before I know what's in your pockets." ?

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08-14-2008, 05:16 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
I understand your point of view.
But if you read my previous posts, I clearly said that I do not know what percentage of the 43 "incidents" were justified use of force by police.

i.e. how many involved the police having to use deadly force because their own lives were in danger because they were being shot at. I'm going to assume that at least a few of them were justified (i hope).

I may not be using the correct terminology.
In my mind, "Murder" is the term used when someone violently kills another with a weapon.

If you want to play semantics and call some of them "manslaughter" or "justified use of deadly force" or "self-defense", that is fine.

It doesn't change the fact that an unarmed civilian is no longer alive - cause of death gunshot wound from a police revolver.
I don't think it's simply playing semantics though I understand the point you're making. Murder, in my mind (and in most people's), is the unlawful killing of someone else with malicious intent. A very specific charge as I mentioned earlier.

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08-14-2008, 05:20 PM
  #882
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znk View Post
From that point on it's all speculation. Why even argue about it?
You are speculating that use of force wasn't justified. Why not wait until the investigation is complete?



On an other part of the issue all I can say is that if people just have to tell no to an officer in a public area to avoid answering to something(anything) well that's pretty messed up.
Fictive story.
Guy stuffs drugs in his pockets.
Cop: "Hey you I think you just put some drugs in your pockets. Show us what you've got there"
Guy: "No"
Cop: "Well then give me some Id since I cant detain you without a warrant I'm going to need it for when I have that warrant."
Guy: "No"
Cop: "Well you just stay here I will call to ask for some sort of help"
Guy: "No"
Guy walks away.
Cop: "Wait wait! Here is the number to the police station call tomorrow! Ask for Bob!"

Is that how things are supposed to go? At what point can the cop say "Ok buster you aint going nowhere before I know what's in your pockets." ?
Thats completely different.
If he knows or suspects you of having hidden drugs, then he can search you. He can't just walk all over you. He must inform you of his intentions and suspicions if im not mistaken.

We can make a lot of Fictitious stories, it really is going to be a case by case type of thing.
You're waiting at a bus stop, Cops car rushes towards you. Cop comes out and says he will search you.
You can say ''Ok'' and let him search you, find nothing and leave.
But you have every right to also say ''No'', until he gives you a valuable reason.

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Old
08-14-2008, 06:21 PM
  #883
znk
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Thats completely different.
If he knows or suspects you of having hidden drugs, then he can search you. He can't just walk all over you. He must inform you of his intentions and suspicions if im not mistaken.

We can make a lot of Fictitious stories, it really is going to be a case by case type of thing.
You're waiting at a bus stop, Cops car rushes towards you. Cop comes out and says he will search you.
You can say ''Ok'' and let him search you, find nothing and leave.
But you have every right to also say ''No'', until he gives you a valuable reason.
So I guess you have information I dont that justifies you saying there was no reason what so ever for the cops to question the brother.

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Old
08-14-2008, 06:24 PM
  #884
znk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealer View Post
I don't think it's simply playing semantics though I understand the point you're making. Murder, in my mind (and in most people's), is the unlawful killing of someone else with malicious intent. A very specific charge as I mentioned earlier.
Murder does carry a certain undertone.
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/M/Murder.aspx
Quote:
Murder
Intentional homicide (the taking of another personís life), without legal justification or provocation.
guapo should use homicide.
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/T...909C0/alpha/H/
Quote:
The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not. Homicide is considered noncriminal in a number of situations, including deaths as the result of war and putting someone to death by the valid sentence of a court. Killing may also be legally justified or excused, as it is in cases of self-defense or when someone is killed by another person who is attempting to prevent a violent felony. Criminal homicide occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide.

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Old
08-14-2008, 06:48 PM
  #885
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znk View Post
So I guess you have information I dont that justifies you saying there was no reason what so ever for the cops to question the brother.
I said as far as we know, he didn't carry a weapon nor was he with any gang members.
His lawyer also said he wasn't breaking any probation rules, he had every right to play dice in the park with his friends and did nothing wrong.

Unless he lied, I just based myself on that to say Cops didn't have a reason to arrest him as of what we know today.
We might know the full story later on so it would be wiser to wait before making a complete assumption, Ill agree on that.

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Old
08-14-2008, 06:50 PM
  #886
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The guy the cops killed was just as innocent as the kid playing nearby with his dad.
Yes, he jumped on the cop after seeing his brother mishandled according to him.
A gun should be the absolute last resort. I think the cops were quick to pull out their gun, probably panic, but I think they handled the situation quite badly. The fact that none of the kids there were unarmed kind of proves that IMO.
We still need to know the rest of the facts to be sure though.
Innocent, jumped on the cop... arent you smart enough to see something isnt right in what you wrote right there ?

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Old
08-14-2008, 07:18 PM
  #887
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okay its quite obvious this thread is going nowhere.

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