HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Leafs-Flyers

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-26-2008, 04:13 PM
  #126
Sneekypete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Branford,Ct
Country: United States
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Name 1 player on the leafs that is not overrated by there fans.

Sneekypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:15 PM
  #127
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,603
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
Name 1 player on the leafs that is not overrated by there fans.
Bryan McCabe.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:17 PM
  #128
mytor4*
 
mytor4*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I already tried that. Its no use. Stat-based arguments carry no weight here. Statistics have virtually no correlation to a players' actual value. Value is determined solely by polls and rankings.

It's kinda like getting pulled over for speeding...

Police Officer: Do you have any idea how fast you were going?
Dumb Driver: Yes officer, I was doing 63 mph.
Police Officer: No, I clocked you doing 76 in a 65 mph zone on my radar gun.
Dumb Driver: That can't be right. I just polled all 5 passengers in my vehicle, and the consensus is that I was only doing 63. Ya know, sometimes those numbers on your radar gun aren't correct. Its a bad judge of the actual speed of my vehicle.Also why didn't you pull over the 3 vehicle that just passed me . Were they not speeding to and worst than me.
Police Officer: But the radar gun is the best way we have to tell exactly how fast you were going and on the other 3 vehicles they were all friends of mine and my radar gun does sometimes make mistakes like it did on my 3 friends but i'm sure it nailed you right.
Dumb Driver: C'mon officer! I mean, even my wife always complains about how slow I drive. Out of all my friends, I was ranked the slowest driver, and the one least likely to speed and your 3 friends did pass me .
Police Officer: Well, you convinced me. I can't believe I was naive enough to bring the radar gun into this discussion. If you and your passengers say you weren't speeding, then that must be fact. Man i got to keep a closer eye on my friends when using this non-working radar gun. I am very sorry to bother you. Carry on, and remember, buckle up!
fixed it a bit for you.

mytor4* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:35 PM
  #129
Nizdizzle
The Shanaplan.
 
Nizdizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,501
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brassballers View Post
I'm a hater of both teams.

I'd give up Kaberle for Carter.
The fact that you hate both teams means your input is basically useless

Nizdizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:39 PM
  #130
Nizdizzle
The Shanaplan.
 
Nizdizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,501
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
Name 1 player on the leafs that is not overrated by there fans.
Ian White, young PP specialist, most fans would trade for a bag of pucks

Nizdizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:43 PM
  #131
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by trapper View Post
fixed it a bit for you.
Well done smartie pants. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

Do you want me to type 99% of all words in all of your posts for you? I mean, I wouldn't want you to have to come up with an original post all by yourself.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 04:56 PM
  #132
JesterOnly
Registered User
 
JesterOnly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,066
vCash: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
What the hell are you talking about? Get a clue. No one is insulted about a comparison. I mean, I listed their career stats side by side. I compared them myself, genius. Look at the numbers. If either one is better than the other, is in only slight.
I said that people act like they are insulted because of things like "What the hell are you talking about? Get a clue... I compared them myself, genius." and the like. I've never seen a normal debate with that kind of language, as if you're attacking others. But then again, this is HFboards.

Yes, you compared them yourself, to your own criteria. You chose to use statistics skewed significantly by the players around them rather than the player himself.

Quote:
You're entitled to your opinion, but once again, that doesn't necessarily make it F'ing so. A significant upgrade? Brodeur is a sig upgrade. As is Luongo. As is Lundqvist. The numbers suggest that Toskala is NOT a sig upgrade.
The 'numbers' that you are so quick to pull out would suggest that Conklin would be an upgrade over either. They would also suggest the Miikka Kiprusoff, Vokoun, Khabibulin, and Dipietro would be slight to significant downgrades between the pipes based on last year's numbers. I point out last year's numbers because of the small sample size of Toskala's career stats. I bring this up only to show how moot the statistics argument is, not to actually debate the merit of these players or sample sizes.

And obviously those players mentioned would be significant upgrades over either goalie.

Quote:
Good for you. You have an opinion. It still doesn't mean squat. Toskala has never done any more in the NHL than Biron has. The difference between the two is negligible at best.
Besides win the starting job over Evgeni Nabokov, who I am positive would be more desired out of him, Toskala and Biron. If Toskala didn't get significantly injured (he wouldn't have been able to play even in the playoffs that year) and Nabokov didn't go on a hot streak, we may have seen Nabokov in another jersey. Toskala proved himself to be a starting goaltender years ago. There is a reason why the Sharks had the most feared 1A/1B goalie combo in the league a couple years ago.

Quote:
You would take him over Miller? Really? You're serious? There really isn't much I can add here....
Yes, I don't know what I'm supposed to validate besides that Miller is extremely overhyped and has had a couple of average seasons blown way out of proportion. If you want to look at stats, Miller's and Toskala's stats from last year are comparable and Toskala played on a far worse team defensively. Please, add something to make me think otherwise.

Quote:
It most certainly was, and it still didn't do anything to suggest Toskala is better than Biron. It was just a long-winded opinion of why you think Toskala is better, when you could have skipped over all of that and just compared the stats. Opinions are just that, opinions, and you are entitled to yours. Stats are fact. They can't be disputed. And the stats say there is no discernible difference between the two goalies.
You're really good at selective attention if you think that my post was simply opinion. I was explaining Toskala's background and the reason why he did not become a starting goalie earlier in his career. He was not given the opportunities that Biron was given early in his career. For their careers, Biron has a 54% win percentage whereas Toskala has a 63% win percentage (excluding ties and OTL). Go ahead and bring out the 'but has more to do with the team' argument, because the exact one goes into all goalie stats.

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics"

To say that stats go undisputed is a very false statement. Stats are just another form of opinion depending on how you use them.

Toskala was traded because he offered the best value in trade while still offloading the nightmare that was Mark Bell. With Nabby's contract, there was no way to trade him while still ridding the team of Bell. The trade of Toskala made a lot more business sense - it would not have been feasible to have two starting goalies on their team being paid starting goalie salary (as Toskala would have). To the chagrin of many Sharks fans, it was Vesa that was traded instead of Nabby. Both players played well enough to deserve starting jobs and both are very high quality goalies. I like Biron, but he lost his starting job to an average starting goaltender and was traded as a backup. He played erratically for the Flyers for all except the very beginning of the year and the very end. I hope he becomes more consistent and really takes over, but no way I would take him over Toskala.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and I respect that you have that opinion. I have mine that is based on experience and knowledge, not on skewed statistics, and I hope you respect my opinion as well.

JesterOnly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 05:22 PM
  #133
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 115,072
vCash: 1045
My point was that 6 months ago everyone in Toronto wanted to get rid of him just so they could get something out of the trade deadline. Now he's an untouchable commodity (which he is, but it took the mid-summer disconnect for everyone to realize that). I argued at that point that Toskala was the one guy the Leafs should should on to.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 05:28 PM
  #134
Krazy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
My point was that 6 months ago everyone in Toronto wanted to get rid of him just so they could get something out of the trade deadline. Now he's an untouchable commodity (which he is, but it took the mid-summer disconnect for everyone to realize that). I argued at that point that Toskala was the one guy the Leafs should should on to.
Everyone in toronto wanted to get rid of him because he was keeping the leafs in games and they want the leafs to Tank. Thats why. We all wanted to trade sundin too, because they are good players who were keeping a terrible team mildly competitive.

Krazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 05:30 PM
  #135
JesterOnly
Registered User
 
JesterOnly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,066
vCash: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
My point was that 6 months ago everyone in Toronto wanted to get rid of him just so they could get something out of the trade deadline. Now he's an untouchable commodity (which he is, but it took the mid-summer disconnect for everyone to realize that). I argued at that point that Toskala was the one guy the Leafs should should on to.
I wholly agree with every word said here. Impatient moves never seem to work out. It was amazing to see how well Toskala played in spite of that Toronto team.

JesterOnly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 05:31 PM
  #136
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesterOnly View Post
I said that people act like they are insulted because of things like "What the hell are you talking about? Get a clue... I compared them myself, genius." and the like. I've never seen a normal debate with that kind of language, as if you're attacking others. But then again, this is HFboards.
When you say its "crazy" to suggest that Toskala isn't a significant upgrade over Biron, that's the kind of reply you will get. Again, show me how Toskala is a significant upgrade over Biron. No one has done that yet. And we both know you won't either. No one can show this "significant" upgrade because its simply....a myth.

Quote:
Yes, you compared them yourself, to your own criteria. You chose to use statistics skewed significantly by the players around them rather than the player himself.
My bad. How stupid of me to think that statistics may be a better judge of a players' ability than a poll or your opinion. Do you have any idea how arbitration rewards are handed out to players? Any idea what they use as the determination for how much money a player gets? I will give ya a clue: Its not a poll on HF Boards. But you're right, all stats are just "skewed", especially when they paint a picture that you don't agree with.


Quote:
The 'numbers' that you are so quick to pull out would suggest that Conklin would be an upgrade over either. They would also suggest the Miikka Kiprusoff, Vokoun, Khabibulin, and Dipietro would be slight to significant downgrades between the pipes based on last year's numbers. I point out last year's numbers because of the small sample size of Toskala's career stats. I bring this up only to show how moot the statistics argument is, not to actually debate the merit of these players or sample sizes.
Fair point. But is it not also a fair point to suggest that a poll is not a very good gauge of a players' worth as well? Everyone who complains about the stats I listed wants to say how they are "team" based, or "skewed". But there's a flip side to that coin, when those same people like to call Carter a "3rd line center", or that he is "overrated" because he only scored 53 points last season. Apparently, people only like to pay attention to stats when they suit their own agendas. That is patently unfair.


Quote:
Besides win the starting job over Evgeni Nabokov, who I am positive would be more desired out of him, Toskala and Biron. If Toskala didn't get significantly injured (he wouldn't have been able to play even in the playoffs that year) and Nabokov didn't go on a hot streak, we may have seen Nabokov in another jersey. Toskala proved himself to be a starting goaltender years ago. There is a reason why the Sharks had the most feared 1A/1B goalie combo in the league a couple years ago.
I think you, and I good many others I might add, are misinterpreting my entire point. I like Toskala. I like him alot. He is a very good goalie. I have never argued that. But the fact remains, there is no tangible evidence that suggest he is better than Biron. We could debate all day long, and there still is no discernible difference between the two. You and I have different opinions, and that is fine. I pretty much like them both equally. Neither one is an "elite" goalie. Some years Toskala may end up having the better season, and some years it may be Biron.



Quote:
Yes, I don't know what I'm supposed to validate besides that Miller is extremely overhyped and has had a couple of average seasons blown way out of proportion. If you want to look at stats, Miller's and Toskala's stats from last year are comparable and Toskala played on a far worse team defensively. Please, add something to make me think otherwise.
Fair enough. I'm not gonna sit here and try and convince you that you're wrong. I don't don't agree with your sentiment, but quite frankly, I really don't care. Its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.



Quote:
You're really good at selective attention if you think that my post was simply opinion. I was explaining Toskala's background and the reason why he did not become a starting goalie earlier in his career. He was not given the opportunities that Biron was given early in his career. For their careers, Biron has a 54% win percentage whereas Toskala has a 63% win percentage (excluding ties and OTL). Go ahead and bring out the 'but has more to do with the team' argument, because the exact one goes into all goalie stats.
You can't use the "you're really good at selective attention" on me, and then turn it around and do the same exact thing. You want to say that their stats are "team" based, but then you throw out winning percentage as if that's NOT "team" based? Sorry, but that stat is as "team" based as it gets.


Quote:
To say that stats go undisputed is a very false statement. Stats are just another form of opinion depending on how you use them.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. You can dispute the validity of the stats, and what they mean when analyzing a player, but you cannot dispute the actual stats themselves. They are what they are. I didn't make them up. You can choose to argue how they apply to the player, but you can't change them. A .904 SV% is just that, and a .918 SV% is just that. You can't change the numbers. They are what they are.

Quote:
Toskala was traded because he offered the best value in trade while still offloading the nightmare that was Mark Bell. With Nabby's contract, there was no way to trade him while still ridding the team of Bell. The trade of Toskala made a lot more business sense - it would not have been feasible to have two starting goalies on their team being paid starting goalie salary (as Toskala would have). To the chagrin of many Sharks fans, it was Vesa that was traded instead of Nabby. Both players played well enough to deserve starting jobs and both are very high quality goalies. I like Biron, but he lost his starting job to an average starting goaltender and was traded as a backup. He played erratically for the Flyers for all except the very beginning of the year and the very end. I hope he becomes more consistent and really takes over, but no way I would take him over Toskala.
I'm not arguing any of that. But again, it has absolutely no relevance to the discussion that Toskala is "significantly" better than Biron. Both goalies went through bouts of inconsistent play last year. Both goalies will likely do the same this season. If you believe Toskala is "significantly" better than Biron, then so be it. My point is that your opinion does not make it so. I respect your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but to call me "crazy" for disagreeing with it, without showing any "proof" besides some poll or ranking is also patently unfair.

Quote:
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and I respect that you have that opinion. I have mine that is based on experience and knowledge, not on skewed statistics, and I hope you respect my opinion as well.
I absolutely respect your opinion. And quite honestly, if you hadn't have called me "crazy" for disagreeing, or accused me of "running amok" in the thread, you would have been greeted by a much more civilized response.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 06:18 PM
  #137
It Kills Me
Registered User
 
It Kills Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
My point was that 6 months ago everyone in Toronto wanted to get rid of him just so they could get something out of the trade deadline. Now he's an untouchable commodity (which he is, but it took the mid-summer disconnect for everyone to realize that). I argued at that point that Toskala was the one guy the Leafs should should on to.
Those nutcases are still around and it wasn't everyone in Toronto.

At last year's deadline there were tons of fans taht wanted to trade EVERYONE over 25 for prospects and picks (no matter how good), even though that strategy wouldn't even work in EHM.

It Kills Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 06:33 PM
  #138
JesterOnly
Registered User
 
JesterOnly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,066
vCash: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
When you say its "crazy" to suggest that Toskala isn't a significant upgrade over Biron, that's the kind of reply you will get. Again, show me how Toskala is a significant upgrade over Biron. No one has done that yet. And we both know you won't either. No one can show this "significant" upgrade because its simply....a myth.
Hey, slow down. Where did I call anyone 'crazy' for suggesting Toskala isn't a significant upgrade? I just said that people were going crazy for getting so animated (proper use? perhaps). I wouldn't exactly call it a myth, perhaps an embellished story if we're going to use any example. There is absolutely no proof of a myth happening (in fact, there tends to be quite a lot of evidence against), but there is the fact that Biron was playing second-fiddle to an average starter while at the same time Toskala was playing lead over Nabokov.

Quote:
My bad. How stupid of me to think that statistics may be a better judge of a players' ability than a poll or your opinion. Do you have any idea how arbitration rewards are handed out to players? Any idea what they use as the determination for how much money a player gets? I will give ya a clue: Its not a poll on HF Boards. But you're right, all stats are just "skewed", especially when they paint a picture that you don't agree with.
Forgive me for being confused, but where did I mention a poll in any of my responses?

As well, I did say that I had stated my opinion, but I did back it up with facts and history, neither of which are included in your stats. All stats can be used to paint a picture that people don't agree with. This is why I brought up the win percentage stat, which I will go over later.


Quote:
Fair point. But is it not also a fair point to suggest that a poll is not a very good gauge of a players' worth as well? Everyone who complains about the stats I listed wants to say how they are "team" based, or "skewed". But there's a flip side to that coin, when those same people like to call Carter a "3rd line center", or that he is "overrated" because he only scored 53 points last season. Apparently, people only like to pay attention to stats when they suit their own agendas. That is patently unfair.
I wholly agree. I don't like polls, and I wouldn't use one unless I had a valid reason for doing so. As of yet, I have not used polls in any of my arguments due to the fact that they are so irrelevant/timely/easily swayed/etc.


Quote:
I think you, and I good many others I might add, are misinterpreting my entire point. I like Toskala. I like him alot. He is a very good goalie. I have never argued that. But the fact remains, there is no tangible evidence that suggest he is better than Biron. We could debate all day long, and there still is no discernible difference between the two. You and I have different opinions, and that is fine. I pretty much like them both equally. Neither one is an "elite" goalie. Some years Toskala may end up having the better season, and some years it may be Biron.
Here I both agree and disagree. I understand that you're not claiming one goalie to be better than another. I don't think that I made that claim, and if I have I apologize. I believe one goalie to be better than the other, and I am debating my point by bringing up all relative information that I can. I am the one saying that Toskala is better than Biron and that there is a difference between the two. I see Toskala as a top 15 goalie that has the potential of a top 10, I don't see the same for Biron. I know this is a bold opinion and that I will have no way of proving that he is better than other goalies in the league, but this is about as strong of an opinion as I will get without having any ground with which to base the opinion on in a debate.

Quote:
Fair enough. I'm not gonna sit here and try and convince you that you're wrong. I don't don't agree with your sentiment, but quite frankly, I really don't care. Its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
Diplomatic. I like that. I will add that I am in the group of Miller-haters, so perhaps my opinion is too bold.

Quote:
You can't use the "you're really good at selective attention" on me, and then turn it around and do the same exact thing. You want to say that their stats are "team" based, but then you throw out winning percentage as if that's NOT "team" based? Sorry, but that stat is as "team" based as it gets.
In this I was pointing out the nature of these debates. With the 'selective attention' I was referring to the dismissal of the history of Toskala and what he had to accomplish to become a starting goalie in the league. I was refuting the point that he hadn't accomplished anything in the NHL (or his career, for that matter) by showing what he had accomplished.

I acknowledge that stats can be skewed to favor opinions. It's the reason I brought up the win% of the goalies - to show that stats don't show the level of play of the goalie. A goalie is used for one reason - to win. Toskala has proven that he can win. That makes the win% stat just as valid as GAA and S%. This is, of course, with the addition that stats are skewed and don't reveal a true picture of the player in question.

GAA, S%, and win% are all team stats. The system a team plays can inflate any of these. A team like the Red Wings last year played a defensive system that blocked shots, therefore keeping shot counts low (which decreases GAA); however, they also give up the occasional higher quality shots (decreasing S%) but played a system that was able to account for this AND had the high quality players more than make up the difference (increasing win%). There's a reason Hasek and Osgood were not considered for Vezina even with their stellar GAA numbers. It's also the reason why Nabokov was considered because the Sharks played the same style with far less quality of defensive players - leading to more high quality shots. So while Nabokov didn't have near the best S%, his play warranted consideration for the Vezina. This isn't something that stats can show. Basically, I'm saying stats are just as useless as opinions in proving the quality of a player, so I'm disproving not only your retort, but my retort to yours as well.

Quote:
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. You can dispute the validity of the stats, and what they mean when analyzing a player, but you cannot dispute the actual stats themselves. They are what they are. I didn't make them up. You can choose to argue how they apply to the player, but you can't change them. A .904 SV% is just that, and a .918 SV% is just that. You can't change the numbers. They are what they are.
Indeed, but being reliable without being valid is about as helpful as having a car with no gas. It's there, you can see it, touch it, get in it, but you can't use it. I'm bringing up the teams and systems and etc. because they are the fuel that leads the car to run.

Quote:
I'm not arguing any of that. But again, it has absolutely no relevance to the discussion that Toskala is "significantly" better than Biron. Both goalies went through bouts of inconsistent play last year. Both goalies will likely do the same this season. If you believe Toskala is "significantly" better than Biron, then so be it. My point is that your opinion does not make it so. I respect your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but to call me "crazy" for disagreeing with it, without showing any "proof" besides some poll or ranking is also patently unfair.
Once again, didn't call you crazy based on your opinion nor did I point to any poll, and I certainly didn't quote any ranking besides mine in this very response. I've shown history, I've shown accomplishments, I've shown the competition, I've shown the reasons behind moving the player, I've shown what I can. It is not opinion to state that Toskala beat out a Vezina winner and a Vezina candidate during the span of his career.

Quote:
I absolutely respect your opinion. And quite honestly, if you hadn't have called me "crazy" for disagreeing, or accused me of "running amok" in the thread, you would have been greeted by a much more civilized response.
Those statements were in response to how others were being treated in here. The thread had drifted into one of high emotions and strange statements. I still find it hard to believe that people would think of Biron as better than Toskala, but that wasn't where those statements originated from. They came from the fact that everyone was so emotionally charged and, as I said earlier, "acting as if it's insulting to compare Toskala [to] Biron." I never said that I didn't respect your opinion, just actions/responses that followed along with it. I do respect your opinion, though I respectfully disagree with it.

*edit* As proof by the fact that Mods had to come in here and edit/delete posts, this thread has gotten both emotionally charged and off track.

JesterOnly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 06:55 PM
  #139
Tripod
Registered User
 
Tripod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,639
vCash: 500
To all...after reviewing all of the comments...it truely looks like neither Flyer fans or Leaf fans would do this deal. But maybe that is a sign of a good deal as well.

As a Flyers fan...I would hate to lose Carter...but Kabs is good and signed to a good contract which can't be denied. I personally would love for Homer to wait on making a move until later to see how the Eminger/Jones situation works out. Of course, if Eminger has a "Coburn like" year...it will cost us much more in salary so it could be a catch 22. With looking at the roster, I love our forwards, am ok with the D and hope Biron can duplicate last year. But of course, he will get a raise(damn Huet contract). I would love to finally be a team that has an elite goalie to build around. We have the roster and youth to contend for many years...we just need Homer to pull off 1 more great "Coburn" move. Who would you guys target for a young goalie? D-Man?

Tripod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 06:59 PM
  #140
FerrisRox
Registered User
 
FerrisRox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
The fact that you hate both teams means your input is basically useless
Or without bias.

FerrisRox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 07:13 PM
  #141
Ha Ha 11
 
Ha Ha 11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 69
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chromemaro View Post
umm. toskala is a damn good goalie. I like biron but id rather have toskala
wow u rather have toskala

LOL!!!!

Ha Ha 11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 07:23 PM
  #142
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesterOnly View Post
Hey, slow down. Where did I call anyone 'crazy' for suggesting Toskala isn't a significant upgrade? I just said that people were going crazy for getting so animated (proper use? perhaps).
You used "crazy" in a way that suggested others who disagreed with Toskala being better somehow made their opinions less valid (at least, that is the way I took it). And accusing someone (me) of "running amok" in a thread, when all I did was call out another poster for trying to put words in my mouth, is dubious at best. But I can just leave it where it is, and just call it a misunderstanding. Nothing to lose sleep over.

Quote:
I wouldn't exactly call it a myth, perhaps an embellished story if we're going to use any example. There is absolutely no proof of a myth happening (in fact, there tends to be quite a lot of evidence against), but there is the fact that Biron was playing second-fiddle to an average starter while at the same time Toskala was playing lead over Nabokov.
You can call it whatever you want, but without tangible proof, something the least bit concrete, it is akin to a myth, in my eyes. But that's ok, it just means we disagree. I'm cool with it. And to be fair, Biron was first behind Hasek, and then behind Miller. Hasek is one of the best netminders of our generation, and while you are entitled to your own opinion, calling Miller "average" is something I don't agree with. But, much like you can't show any tangible evidence that Toskala is better than Biron, I likely couldn't do the same between Miller and Toskala. Best to just stop beating that horse to death.


Quote:
Forgive me for being confused, but where did I mention a poll in any of my responses?
You didn't, others did. I brought it up because its the best anyone could do in response to Toskala being better, and I was told it had more weight than any stats I could provide.

Quote:
As well, I did say that I had stated my opinion, but I did back it up with facts and history, neither of which are included in your stats. All stats can be used to paint a picture that people don't agree with. This is why I brought up the win percentage stat, which I will go over later.
No offense, but all you did was read part of Toskala's biography. I mean, I know all about his background. And its still irrelevant to the discussion of how he is better than Biron. I find comparable stats between Biron and Toskala to be a much better judge of who may, or may not be better. You disagree, so here we are. And we could just go back and forth on it forever and ever, or we could just agree to disagree. I'm willing to let a sleeping dog lie. This thing has gone on long enough.



Quote:
I wholly agree. I don't like polls, and I wouldn't use one unless I had a valid reason for doing so. As of yet, I have not used polls in any of my arguments due to the fact that they are so irrelevant/timely/easily swayed/etc.
On this point we agree 110%.


Quote:
Here I both agree and disagree. I understand that you're not claiming one goalie to be better than another. I don't think that I made that claim, and if I have I apologize. I believe one goalie to be better than the other, and I am debating my point by bringing up all relative information that I can. I am the one saying that Toskala is better than Biron and that there is a difference between the two. I see Toskala as a top 15 goalie that has the potential of a top 10, I don't see the same for Biron. I know this is a bold opinion and that I will have no way of proving that he is better than other goalies in the league, but this is about as strong of an opinion as I will get without having any ground with which to base the opinion on in a debate.
I respect everything you said here. And I respect the fact that you believe Toskala is better. In truth, I believe he has more potential than Biron moving forward. I just don't believe I can be convinced that he's better at this time. Of course, I may have a different opinion 3 months into next season. Who knows?



Quote:
Diplomatic. I like that. I will add that I am in the group of Miller-haters, so perhaps my opinion is too bold.
Yea, I can be diplomatic. You have to give me some leeway. I am from Philly, afterall, so I wasn't exactly born with a ton of tact. I can be a sarcastic little turd, but I'm more than willing to have a reasonable discussion, and it's obvious that you are as well. And its silly for me to argue about Miller, so I will let it go. I like him more than you do, but its not like he has been a world-beater up to this point, so I understand where you are coming from.

Quote:
In this I was pointing out the nature of these debates. With the 'selective attention' I was referring to the dismissal of the history of Toskala and what he had to accomplish to become a starting goalie in the league. I was refuting the point that he hadn't accomplished anything in the NHL (or his career, for that matter) by showing what he had accomplished.
That is fair. If I came off as dismissive, then I apologize. I don't see the same relevance in that history as you do, much like you don't see the relevance in my stats, but one stance is just as fair as the other.


Quote:
I acknowledge that stats can be skewed to favor opinions. It's the reason I brought up the win% of the goalies - to show that stats don't show the level of play of the goalie. A goalie is used for one reason - to win. Toskala has proven that he can win. That makes the win% stat just as valid as GAA and S%. This is, of course, with the addition that stats are skewed and don't reveal a true picture of the player in question.

GAA, S%, and win% are all team stats. The system a team plays can inflate any of these. A team like the Red Wings last year played a defensive system that blocked shots, therefore keeping shot counts low (which decreases GAA); however, they also give up the occasional higher quality shots (decreasing S%) but played a system that was able to account for this AND had the high quality players more than make up the difference (increasing win%). There's a reason Hasek and Osgood were not considered for Vezina even with their stellar GAA numbers. It's also the reason why Nabokov was considered because the Sharks played the same style with far less quality of defensive players - leading to more high quality shots. So while Nabokov didn't have near the best S%, his play warranted consideration for the Vezina. This isn't something that stats can show. Basically, I'm saying stats are just as useless as opinions in proving the quality of a player, so I'm disproving not only your retort, but my retort to yours as well.



Indeed, but being reliable without being valid is about as helpful as having a car with no gas. It's there, you can see it, touch it, get in it, but you can't use it. I'm bringing up the teams and systems and etc. because they are the fuel that leads the car to run.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the stats. I see them as being pretty relevant to the discussion, and you see them as more team-based. I understand where you're coming from, and I think you understand where I'm coming from, so there really isn't any use beating each other up over it. We won't come to a consensus on this issue, so maybe just a hug and call it a day?


Quote:
Once again, didn't call you crazy based on your opinion nor did I point to any poll, and I certainly didn't quote any ranking besides mine in this very response. I've shown history, I've shown accomplishments, I've shown the competition, I've shown the reasons behind moving the player, I've shown what I can. It is not opinion to state that Toskala beat out a Vezina winner and a Vezina candidate during the span of his career.



Those statements were in response to how others were being treated in here. The thread had drifted into one of high emotions and strange statements. I still find it hard to believe that people would think of Biron as better than Toskala, but that wasn't where those statements originated from. They came from the fact that everyone was so emotionally charged and, as I said earlier, "acting as if it's insulting to compare Toskala [to] Biron." I never said that I didn't respect your opinion, just actions/responses that followed along with it. I do respect your opinion, though I respectfully disagree with it.

*edit* As proof by the fact that Mods had to come in here and edit/delete posts, this thread has gotten both emotionally charged and off track.
Yeppers, I realized that myself. I take my share of blame for getting "off track". You have responded to me in a civil manner, and I have tried to do likewise. I respect your opinion as well, and also respectfully disagree with it. Such is life, right? If we all agreed, this would be a pretty boring world.

As long as we agree to just respect each others' opinions, then I'm done debating it. I'm not gonna convince you that I'm right, and you aren't gonna convince me. Buy ya beer?

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2008, 09:45 PM
  #143
Sneekypete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Branford,Ct
Country: United States
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Bryan McCabe.
How many diot leaf fans think they could have gotten a first for Mccabe.

Sneekypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 01:44 AM
  #144
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 115,072
vCash: 1045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
At last year's deadline there were tons of fans taht wanted to trade EVERYONE over 25 for prospects and picks (no matter how good), even though that strategy wouldn't even work in EHM.

Errr...did for me in the 2004 version.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 07:12 AM
  #145
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,603
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
How many diot leaf fans think they could have gotten a first for Mccabe.
The Caps got a first for Eminger. I think McCabe is better then Eminger.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 07:52 AM
  #146
mydnyte
Registered User
 
mydnyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,613
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha Ha 11 View Post
wow u rather have toskala

LOL!!!!
Yea, Strange, someone preferring the better of the 2 goalies.

mydnyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 07:53 AM
  #147
mydnyte
Registered User
 
mydnyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,613
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
How many diot leaf fans think they could have gotten a first for Mccabe.
Attacking an entire fan base ...how polite

mydnyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 07:59 AM
  #148
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Caps got a first for Eminger. I think McCabe is better then Eminger.
How much does he make?

Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 10:18 AM
  #149
Sneekypete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Branford,Ct
Country: United States
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
Attacking an entire fan base ...how polite
actually not a entire fan base.How many is not every!
There are some very smart leaf fans and then there are over exuberous fans that think all there players are the absolute best.
If you are going to come back at me atleast get your facts str8t.

Sneekypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2008, 10:21 AM
  #150
Sneekypete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Branford,Ct
Country: United States
Posts: 2,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
The Caps got a first for Eminger. I think McCabe is better then Eminger.
1 million vs 6million plus this year ,escpecially when the Flyers need a second pairing D-man.Also the flyers did not have 6 mill in cap space and if they did I am sure the 1st would have been more valuable.
Plus Mccabe`s value is at a all time low because of his NMC or NTC.He can boycottt any move and said he will not waive the clause to play just anywere.In turn his value at that point would be a 2nd at best but more likely a 4th and thats because of his NTC or NMC.In some instances Toronto would have to pay just to move Mccabe.
This is all moot anyway.

Sneekypete is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.