HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Mats Sundin - - - Part XI - The Final Chapter

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-26-2008, 02:57 PM
  #176
RE-HABS
Registered User
 
RE-HABS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,885
vCash: 500
I could care less if Sundin comes, but in reality how much contact has he had with any team I wonder?

Gainey never says anything, maybe he is down playing the situation to the media but really knows of more going on than he'll admit? Why would he hold on till September if Sundin isn't asking about the team or supposedly interested in the team as well???

I just want this to end already! Montreal, NY, Philly, where ever or retire...please just end it now so we can speculate on trades and have a million threads on that instead!!!

RE-HABS is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 02:58 PM
  #177
hogtownhabsfan*
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
If the asset is on our team.. I agree.

However, we have how many defenseman who are coming up the pipes?

McDonagh, Fischer, Subban, Weber, Carle, Valentenko, Torp, Stesjkal.. as well as Emelin & Korneev over in Russia.

Not to mention we have Josh Gorges and Ryan O'Byrne who are still really young already on the club.

It's time to start moving some of those assets to win, IMO.
Higgins has far more value on the trade market than any of those guys. None of those guys could get us a piece close to what Higgins could land us. And in a few years I expect McDonagh to be a more valuable asset than Higgins. I'd rather move Higgins personally.

hogtownhabsfan* is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 02:58 PM
  #178
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As #11 Saku Koivu stated, if you want quality you have to give quality. Higgins is quality but he is hardly a guy that we would have a difficult time replacing. Pacioretty is basically a bigger and stronger Higgins and is almost ready anyway. Lang is soft and on the decline, I'd rather just have Chipchura up in that case.
Lang put up what, about 60 points last year ? Mainly points due to being a smart player as his legs have gone the way of Smolinki's. I'd guess that Lang ranks about 30 in terms of points at C.

Higgins ranks 23rd in terms of points at lw. Replacing him with a D'agostini , imo, just fills one hole while creating another. If they're looking at 1-2 year player, which I believe they should, I see no reason to deal a guy like Higgins, who as much as we like to dismiss his contribution is easily in the top 3rd of the league's lw'ers.

mcphee is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 02:59 PM
  #179
Dan K
HFBoards Partner
 
Dan K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,176
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Dan K
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
What about when Pacioretty 'plateau's' in 3 years from now...who gonna replace him then?

I don't understand why everyone who doesn't score 40 goals or doesn't have the potential too, can't still be useful to some people?

So what if Higgins plateau's (not that I think he has mind you) as a 2nd/3rd line 25G/50PTS type of two way player, what's so bad about that?
I don't think anyone is really hating on Higgins here. He's a very effective two-way, 2nd/3rd line, 25G/50PTS player. The thing is, given time and an opportunity, Latendresse, D'Agostini, and Pacioretty all have the potential to be this within the next 2-3 years. So if we had the ability to move the established Higgins to address an area where we don't have a guy with imminent potential, then it's an option we have to consider.

Dan K is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:00 PM
  #180
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Higgins has far more value on the trade market than any of those guys. And in a few years I expect McDonagh to be a more valuable asset than Higgins. I'd rather move Higgins personally.
Why though? He's an RFA after the year who probably won't cost too much to re-sign.

Like I said before, he is always best friends with our most important UFA this year (Mike Komisarek).. trading him may have an impact on re-signing him. (Maybe not, but it very easily could).

If we do move Higgins and it pisses Komisarek off, is it really worth it? Some players will go where there friends are (Briere did it just last year).. and Komisarek could easily follow suit to play with Higgins, who is one of his best friends and work-out partner.

And Higgins brings a lot of value to our team as well. And I really think Gainey showed that he's not that interested in moving Higgins at the deadline last year.

One Man Rock Band is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:00 PM
  #181
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,635
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
I don't think anyone is really hating on Higgins here. He's a very effective two-way, 2nd/3rd line, 25G/50PTS player. The thing is, given time and an opportunity, Latendresse, D'Agostini, and Pacioretty all have the potential to be this within the next 2-3 years. So if we had the ability to move the established Higgins to address an area where we don't have a guy with imminent potential, then it's an option we have to consider.
Not when you're trying to win this year.

WeThreeKings is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:01 PM
  #182
RE-HABS
Registered User
 
RE-HABS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I don't see the point in deals that cost us a valuable asset. Are the guys being mentionned much better than a Lang who could be had cheaper, if that indeed is Chicago's direction ?
If we are going to pay Mats $6 million plus maybe we can get Havlat for a reasonable trade price for his final year of his contract for $6 million and put Sergei at centre?

RE-HABS is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:01 PM
  #183
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
I could care less if Sundin comes, but in reality how much contact has he had with any team I wonder?

Gainey never says anything, maybe he is down playing the situation to the media but really knows of more going on than he'll admit? Why would he hold on till September if Sundin isn't asking about the team or supposedly interested in the team as well???

I just want this to end already! Montreal, NY, Philly, where ever or retire...please just end it now so we can speculate on trades and have a million threads on that instead!!!
I agree just give Tanguay the number 13 and lets get this show on the road . If he really wanted to be hear he would have signed by now .


He's holding out waiting for "his team" to make room for him . He wants to be a part of it NY NY .

Before we got his rights wanst the Rags supposedly after his rights or something way back then .

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:01 PM
  #184
Dan K
HFBoards Partner
 
Dan K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,176
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Dan K
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Lang put up what, about 60 points last year ? Mainly points due to being a smart player as his legs have gone the way of Smolinki's. I'd guess that Lang ranks about 30 in terms of points at C.

Higgins ranks 23rd in terms of points at lw. Replacing him with a D'agostini , imo, just fills one hole while creating another. If they're looking at 1-2 year player, which I believe they should, I see no reason to deal a guy like Higgins, who as much as we like to dismiss his contribution is easily in the top 3rd of the league's lw'ers.
I may just really like D'Agostini, but I think he'd be capable. If we assume a Kostitsyn and Tanguay are our top 2 LWs, Higgins plays on the "third" line. Higgins is great, but you don't necessarily need a player of his caliber for that role. Thus it becomes an area of strength for us, which we can take advantage of to address a weakness. I'm not saying I would deal Higgins for Lang, cause I certainly wouldn't, but if we can get a suitable offensive center for him who fits our plans, then I would look at it.

Dan K is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:02 PM
  #185
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
If the asset is on our team.. I agree.

However, we have how many defenseman who are coming up the pipes?

McDonagh, Fischer, Subban, Weber, Carle, Valentenko, Torp, Stesjkal.. as well as Emelin & Korneev over in Russia.

Not to mention we have Josh Gorges and Ryan O'Byrne who are still really young already on the club.

It's time to start moving some of those assets to win, IMO.
I don't think you can ever have enough defensman in the system...the more, the better

I think if the Habs can't land Sundin, then i'm quite comfortable with what we have. Hell, they won the conference with a team that's weaker (IMO) than what it is now. Maybe Sundin not coming creates an opportunity for someone else to step up???? Sometimes the answer can be found from within.

I think people are going to be disapointed if Sundin doesn't sign here, but even moreso if Gainey doesn't come up with that all-to-famous "Plan B" everyone keeps talking about....and I think that's unfortunate because there are some good, young players on this team that are looking for more opportunities to shine. I don't think anyone would of believed me had I told you at this time last year that Plekanec would finish the year as our #1 center...but he took advantage of an opportunity and never looked back. What's to say that Lapierre or Chipchura couldn't do the same? Or that Higgins or S.Kostitsyn moved to center early on in camp and did well....

417 is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:03 PM
  #186
Dan K
HFBoards Partner
 
Dan K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,176
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Dan K
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Not when you're trying to win this year.
I disagree. I'm not suggesting trading Higgins for prospects/picks. I'm suggesting something like Higgins and a prospect/pick for immediate help in the form of an offensive center. This takes nothing away from trying to win now. Pacioretty or D'Agostini with a quality center could be a lot better than Chipchura or Lapierre with Higgins, depending on who the center we acquire is.

Dan K is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:06 PM
  #187
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
I may just really like D'Agostini, but I think he'd be capable. If we assume a Kostitsyn and Tanguay are our top 2 LWs, Higgins plays on the "third" line. Higgins is great, but you don't necessarily need a player of his caliber for that role. Thus it becomes an area of strength for us, which we can take advantage of to address a weakness. I'm not saying I would deal Higgins for Lang, cause I certainly wouldn't, but if we can get a suitable offensive center for him who fits our plans, then I would look at it.
Maybe, but if I look at Higgins + for a Marleau then compare it to 2nd for Lang, I'd make the Lang deal.

mcphee is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:07 PM
  #188
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think if the Habs can't land Sundin, then i'm quite comfortable with what we have. Hell, they won the conference with a team that's weaker (IMO) than what it is now.
Weaker? Maybe a little, but not much..

I would say we are about the same..

We lost Ryder, who still scored 15 goals for us.. and played well down the stretch. We'll say Laraque replaces Ryder.. and when you break it down, it's a wash due to offense.

Streit and Tanguay is also a wash.

We will be more physical and a bit less offensive. Plus, I really can't see Kovalev scoring as many points as he did last year again.

One Man Rock Band is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:07 PM
  #189
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I don't think you can ever have enough defensman in the system...the more, the better

I think if the Habs can't land Sundin, then i'm quite comfortable with what we have. Hell, they won the conference with a team that's weaker (IMO) than what it is now. Maybe Sundin not coming creates an opportunity for someone else to step up???? Sometimes the answer can be found from within.

I think people are going to be disapointed if Sundin doesn't sign here, but even moreso if Gainey doesn't come up with that all-to-famous "Plan B" everyone keeps talking about....and I think that's unfortunate because there are some good, young players on this team that are looking for more opportunities to shine. I don't think anyone would of believed me had I told you at this time last year that Plekanec would finish the year as our #1 center...but he took advantage of an opportunity and never looked back. What's to say that Lapierre or Chipchura couldn't do the same? Or that Higgins or S.Kostitsyn moved to center early on in camp and did well....
This very well could be the way to go. If Chip is going to be of value, it pretty well has to start now.

mcphee is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:08 PM
  #190
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
I don't think anyone is really hating on Higgins here. He's a very effective two-way, 2nd/3rd line, 25G/50PTS player. The thing is, given time and an opportunity, Latendresse, D'Agostini, and Pacioretty all have the potential to be this within the next 2-3 years. So if we had the ability to move the established Higgins to address an area where we don't have a guy with imminent potential, then it's an option we have to consider.
Well when they prove that they're worthy of that time and opportunity, then we can revisit that possibility.

It's like 3 years ago when we had Zednik and Higgins was knocking at the door, we didn't move Zednik right away, even though we knew that eventually, Higgins would be more than capable of putting up Zednik-like production...Higgins had to prove his worth.

Nothing is given man...even the great Carey Price had to bide his time

417 is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:09 PM
  #191
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #11 Saku Koivu View Post
I disagree. I'm not suggesting trading Higgins for prospects/picks. I'm suggesting something like Higgins and a prospect/pick for immediate help in the form of an offensive center.
But why? Say we moved Higgins + Maxwell for Marleau.. Our line-up still has a huge hole on one of the wings. Higgins can play the two-way NHL game that would mesh with Kostitsyn and Chipchura, where-as D'Agostini doesn't have that in his game.

Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev
Tanguay - Marleau - D'Agostini
Latnedresse - Koivu - Kostitsyn

Doesn't sound all that much better than what we have.. and we lose a really good defensive line in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Maybe, but if I look at Higgins + for a Marleau then compare it to 2nd for Lang, I'd make the Lang deal.
Agreed.

Maybe a prospect for Reinprecht would also be an option.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-01-2008 at 10:03 PM.
One Man Rock Band is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:12 PM
  #192
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Weaker? Maybe a little, but not much..

I would say we are about the same..

We lost Ryder, who still scored 15 goals for us.. and played well down the stretch. We'll say Laraque replaces Ryder.. and when you break it down, it's a wash due to offense.

Streit and Tanguay is also a wash.

We will be more physical and a bit less offensive. Plus, I really can't see Kovalev scoring as many points as he did last year again.
you're underestimating what 1 year of growth can do for players like Higgins, Plekanec, Kostitysn x 2, Lapierre, Latendresse, Komisarek, O'Byrne, Price, Halak, etc.

+ i'd say that Tanguay =/ Ryder + Streit if he has a good year IMO.

417 is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:12 PM
  #193
7th Player
Registered User
 
7th Player's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,961
vCash: 500
http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/258690.html

7th Player is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:13 PM
  #194
Dan K
HFBoards Partner
 
Dan K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,176
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Dan K
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Maybe, but if I look at Higgins + for a Marleau then compare it to 2nd for Lang, I'd make the Lang deal.
I would likely agree. I argued earlier in this thread that no deal for Marleau is likely to make sense since San Jose would want assets that will help them immediatetly. Plus I'm not positive Marleau is the guy to target either. I don't really know who I would want in a deal that I'd move Higgins. Looking at the list, most of the guys I'd want for him are probably considered untouchable by their current team. Scott Gomez? Patrick O'Sullivan? Shawn Horcoff? Mikko Koivu?

Dan K is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:14 PM
  #195
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
As #11 Saku Koivu stated, if you want quality you have to give quality. Higgins is quality but he is hardly a guy that we would have a difficult time replacing. Pacioretty is basically a bigger and stronger Higgins and is almost ready anyway. Lang is soft and on the decline, I'd rather just have Chipchura up in that case.
I'd deal Lats way before I'd deal Higgy.

Higgins is not only a very good two-way player, he still hasn't reached his max potential, has almost reached 30 goals in his 3rd full season, and to top it off, he's got leadership skills and could quite probably be the next Habs lifer after Koivu. I just don't see him getting traded. And by the numerous interest other teams have shown for him, it tells us a lot about his perceived value around the league. He's a keeper.

Ozymandias is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:14 PM
  #196
The n00b King ©*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Scatbox-less :(
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,861
vCash: 500
Well, I suppose it's time to go torch myself.

Goodbye, all.

The n00b King ©* is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:14 PM
  #197
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
This very well could be the way to go. If Chip is going to be of value, it pretty well has to start now.
+ everyone seems to be married to the idea of 3 offensive lines...hell, the Habs are going to play with what they have, if that's Plekanec, Koivu, Chipchura/Lapierre, down the middle...then so be it, doesn't look all that different than Koivu, Grabovksi, Plekanec, Bégin, which is what we started game 1 of last year with and things ended up going pretty well for the Habs IIRC

417 is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:17 PM
  #198
Dan K
HFBoards Partner
 
Dan K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,176
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Dan K
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
But why? Say we moved Higgins + Maxwell for Marleau.. Our line-up still has a huge hole on one of the wings. Higgins can play the two-way NHL game that would mesh with Kostitsyn and Chipchura, where-as D'Agostini doesn't have that in his game.

Kostitsyn - Plekanec - Kovalev
Tanguay - Marleau - D'Agostini
Latnedresse - Koivu - Kostitsyn

Doesn't sound all that much better than what we have.. and we lose a really good defensive line in the process.
From an on-paper perspective, not considering salary cap rammifications, I would be a lot happier with this line-up. But again maybe I'm just too high on D'Ago.

I still think we have a good team if we stand pat, let me affirm that. But I do think we can improve by moving a winger for a center.

Dan K is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:19 PM
  #199
hogtownhabsfan*
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,727
vCash: 500
If we don't land Sundin we are seriously weak up the middle.

Plekanec is a great young player, but even he ideally would be a #2 centerman. I'd love to see him centering the Kostitsyn brothers on a dynamic second line.

After him we have a declining Koivu, who is still a valuable NHLer and outstanding leader, but no longer a top 2 centerman in my book. He's a good fit as an offensive 3rd line centerman, next to Latendresse who I feel would be best off on a offensive 3rd line as well but on the right side. Tanguay, Higgins, and Pacioretty would all look very nice on the left of those 2.

Lapierre I like better as a winger, but he's in the mix but definitely as a 4th liner at this point. He could develop into an outstanding checking line centerman, but right now I like him on the wing of a 4th line. Chipchura would be excellent on a 4th line as a Centerman, but it will be crowded with Begin, Laraque and Kostopoulos also in the mix.

I think what it boils down to is 1 of our wingers needs to be moved for a top line centerman, and Higgins is the guy who makes the most sense, as Pacioretty whose basically a bigger/stronger Higgins, is going to be a callup at some point anyway. By the end of the year, and for the next few as well I hope to see

Tanguay-??????-Kovalev
Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kostitsyn
Pacioretty-Koivu-Latendresse
Lapierre-Chipchura-Laraque

If we get a great player to fill in that top spot, those are the lines of a Chionship team IMO. And Higgins is obviously the odd man out.

hogtownhabsfan* is offline  
Old
08-26-2008, 03:20 PM
  #200
habs_24x
Registered User
 
habs_24x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,377
vCash: 500
I think Gainey will start the season with what he has, evaluate the team's weaknesses and trade for the fix. I dont think hes going to trade anyone on our roster (except guys like Dandenault, kosto, Begin and maybe Lappy) and try to work out a deal with our farm players. I dont understand why anyone would want to trade guys like Higgins, SKost and Lats. These are the guys youre going to win now with.

habs_24x is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.