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NHL vs. KHL = new Summit Series?

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08-26-2008, 09:01 AM
  #1
WalterSobchak
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NHL vs. KHL = new Summit Series?

I didn't really want to create a new thread for this, but I can't find a thread where this would fit in nicely and perhaps it does deserve its own discussion.

and perhaps it has been brought up before, I haven't been very active at HF the last couple months (busy with work)

With the political cooling of the union between Russia and the "Western Powers" over the altercation in Georgia, Iraq and Iran and the KHL clashing with the NHL over players contracts it appears the Cold War is coming back into fashion.

I don't see it happening overnight but there does seem to be a bit of a feel that Russian born players are considering more and more to stay home to play and I have to say it makes alot of sense to me, if I were put into that position.

I didn't create this thread to argue KHL vs NHL despite the thread title (mods feel free to change the title if you can come up with a better one...it is early here) but more or less to gauge if people think that down the road, we might be headed towards another summit series?

It probably will start with the 2010 Olympics and it won't necessarily be just Canada vs. Russia this time around but what do you all think?

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08-26-2008, 09:46 AM
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saskganesh
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not yet, no. I don't see any benefit to the NHL, and I don't think international relations are cold enough so that a hockey series would be considered to be a useful political tool.

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08-26-2008, 10:02 AM
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08-26-2008, 11:40 AM
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No good competition for the NHL in the KHL anyways it's basically an AHL level league with a few NHL calibre headcases who missed their mommies in Russia and went home. No NHL fans would watch it and the KHL teams probably wouldn't want to do it cuz the score would be 10-0, like watching team Canada play Norway or something.

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08-26-2008, 12:07 PM
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Blind Gardien
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It would be fun to see the outcome, but I agree that right now it seems highly doubtful that the NHL would agree to anything. They will want people to have a Turboflexian viewpoint on the KHL, and so won't want to grant them any legitimacy via a showdown.

Who knows how the relationship will evolve longterm, however. Perhaps it will have to be primarily through third-party arrangements that we have to satisfy our desire to see Us vs. Them again, instead of direct NHL-KHL action. But even the national team aspect could stand for some reheating, which ought to come about as a natural byproduct if the NHL-KHL relationship remains strained and the KHL continues to grow.

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08-26-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
No good competition for the NHL in the KHL anyways it's basically an AHL level league with a few NHL calibre headcases who missed their mommies in Russia and went home. No NHL fans would watch it and the KHL teams probably wouldn't want to do it cuz the score would be 10-0, like watching team Canada play Norway or something.
wow just wow

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08-26-2008, 12:32 PM
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goliath5151
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Id love to see a Stanley Cup Champ vs KHL champ match. I think they should do it.

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08-26-2008, 12:45 PM
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I'd to see a summer league where the nhl champ plays the khl champ and the sweden champ and finland, switzerland and check champ.

Maybe have them play all summer, this way the cup winner will get penalized for being so good and not go and get hossa.

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08-26-2008, 12:50 PM
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To be perfectly honest, I don't care to see a KHL vs NHL showdown.

The Stanley Cup is currently awarded to the last NHL team left standing after the NHL season is over. That's fine with me. I don't want my teams' players health risked over some tournament based on nationalistic sentimentality. I don't like having my sports and politics mixed up. The Olympics are bad enough.

There are several venues already available for those who like to pit country against country. In my opinion, these aren't meaningful either because hockey is a team sport. These tournaments bring guys together for 2-3 weeks, where more and more the best players decline to even participate. Not only are these groups not real "teams" in the sense that you cultivate and build for years, but they can't even claim to have the best players.

Finally, the NHL has little to gain from such a tournament. A few extra games in 3-4 arenas? Big whoop. The Stanley Cup champion has to add another grueling set of games to their schedule, after surviving 82 games, 8-10 pre-season games, and 4 rounds of playoffs. This all overlooks the fact of timing. With UFA season opening up 1st July, some last minute trade options leading right up to that point, there would be no time to pull off such an event. It's already June, and the interest in hockey just wouldn't be there.

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08-26-2008, 01:24 PM
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David Puddy
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There are better Russians playing in the NHL than there are playing in the KHL. Here are some lines, pairings and goalies that I threw together using only Soviet-born NHL players, all of whom I believe will play in the NHL in 2008-09.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuk - Pavel Datsyuk - Alexander Semin
Alexander Frolov - Nik Antropov - Maxim Afinogenov
Nikolai Zherdev - Sergei Federov - Dainius Zubrus

Andrei Markov - Sergei Gonchar
Sergei Zubov - Ruslan Salei
Fedor Tyutin - Alexei Zhitnik

Evgeni Nabokov
Ilya Bryzgalov

Can the KHL ice better talent than that lineup?

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08-26-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goliath5151 View Post
Id love to see a Stanley Cup Champ vs KHL champ match. I think they should do it.
This would imply that the winner of this series is World Champ and would relegate the Stanley Cup playoffs to a qualifying-for-this-thing competition. Pass.

Mod Edit: deleted


Last edited by Fugu: 08-26-2008 at 03:23 PM. Reason: political commentary removed
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08-26-2008, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
No good competition for the NHL in the KHL anyways it's basically an AHL level league with a few NHL calibre headcases who missed their mommies in Russia and went home. No NHL fans would watch it and the KHL teams probably wouldn't want to do it cuz the score would be 10-0, like watching team Canada play Norway or something.
exactly. It would be a joke.

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08-26-2008, 03:18 PM
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Mod Edit: deleted quoted portion

we'd lose the All Star game every 2 years now due to the Olympics and now this idea has run its course.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-26-2008 at 03:25 PM.
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08-26-2008, 05:21 PM
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danishh
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no benefit at all for legitimizing the khl. Once the khl is actually a comparable league, i could see them going for it, but we're 10 years away from that.

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08-26-2008, 05:43 PM
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WalterSobchak
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I wasn't suggesting this is something that happens overnight. 2010 sounds about right, but to think that the KHL is going to take 10 years to rival the NHL is a little ridiculous.

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08-26-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
I wasn't suggesting this is something that happens overnight. 2010 sounds about right, but to think that the KHL is going to take 10 years to rival the NHL is a little ridiculous.
How do you even know that the KHL will ever rival the NHL? Serious question.

You seem to be including hidden assumptions in your analyses, and it's hard to comment on the result without seeing those assumptions.

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08-26-2008, 06:46 PM
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To be honest im not that familiar with the KHL. But I viewed all the rosters and I came up with this team. Though there would probably be more russians and less non-russians.

Aleksey Morozov - Alexei Yashin - Jaromir Jagr
Ladislav Nagy - Sergei Brylin - Alexander Radulov
Petr Cajanek - Alexei Kaigorodov - Alexander Perezhogin
Mattias Weinhandl - Josef Stumpel - Branko Radivojevic

Oleg Tverdovsky - Danny Markov
Andrei Zyuzin - Magnus Johansson
Kirill Koltsov - Darius Kasparaitis

Ray Emery
Wade Dubielwicz

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08-26-2008, 08:12 PM
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WalterSobchak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
How do you even know that the KHL will ever rival the NHL? Serious question.

You seem to be including hidden assumptions in your analyses, and it's hard to comment on the result without seeing those assumptions.
how do I know the NHL won't collapse entirely in the next 3 weeks?

I don't. Nobody does. I never said I know. Do I need to preface every single thing I post in this place with "It is my opinion that..."

I sure hope not. Unless I am stating something is a fact and providing a link to the document that substantiates this fact lets say it is speculation.

Based upon what I have read in regards to the amount of sheer capital the investers who are behind the KHL have potentially at their disposal, I believe the KHL to be a legitimate competitor to the NHL.

That said, if other people agree with my opinion, do you believe this could lead to another Summit Series some time after the 2010 Olympics which could hold the same resonance as the original did to a new generation?

Now if you don't believe that the KHL will ever compete with the NHL, this is obviously not a thread directed to you, but since we are on a hockey message board that deals with speculation and opinion no matter how educated one might be on the matter...feel free to post that too.

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08-26-2008, 08:36 PM
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Bold font aside, you were the one who said that "think(ing) that the KHL is going to take 10 years to rival the NHL is a little ridiculous," implying that another's opinion was a little ridiculous.

So you clearly think that the KHL will rival the NHL in less than ten years. Why do you feel that way?

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08-26-2008, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
To be honest im not that familiar with the KHL. But I viewed all the rosters and I came up with this team. Though there would probably be more russians and less non-russians.

Aleksey Morozov - Alexei Yashin - Jaromir Jagr
Ladislav Nagy - Sergei Brylin - Alexander Radulov
Petr Cajanek - Alexei Kaigorodov - Alexander Perezhogin
Mattias Weinhandl - Josef Stumpel - Branko Radivojevic

Oleg Tverdovsky - Danny Markov
Andrei Zyuzin - Magnus Johansson
Kirill Koltsov - Darius Kasparaitis

Ray Emery
Wade Dubielwicz
There several players better than a lot of those guys.




My guess:

Sc1: Jaromir Jagr – Alexei Yashin – Maxim Sushinsky
Sc2: Danis Zaripov – Sergei Zinoviev – Alexei Morozov
Sc3: Alexander Radulov – Jan Marek – Alexei Kalyuzhny
Chk: Ivan Nepryaev – Niko Kapanen – Petr Cajanek

D1 Ilya Nikulin – Vitali Atyushov
D2 Daniil Markov – Konstantin Korneev
D3 Dmitri Bykov – Magnus Johansson

Ray Emery
Jussi Markkanen


Last edited by Zine: 08-26-2008 at 09:57 PM.
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08-27-2008, 12:24 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
No NHL fans would watch it

If the NHL Network cared aboot hockey they would show KHL games, A Lot of NHL fans would watch. I watch KHL games on the net, I wish we had it on tv though.

And I would love to see the Stanley Cup winner play the KHL winner for the Victoria Cup. Play a home and home series. Would be awesome.


Last edited by nyrmetros: 08-27-2008 at 12:31 AM.
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08-27-2008, 10:07 AM
  #22
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hahaha detroit red wings vs. 3rd rate russian plugs from gazprom outpost #8 in siberia as the ultimate hockey championship. Maybe in [mod deletion] fantasy world this will happen but americans and canadians will never buy into this ridiculous idea.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-27-2008 at 10:46 AM. Reason: flaming
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08-27-2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
I wasn't suggesting this is something that happens overnight. 2010 sounds about right, but to think that the KHL is going to take 10 years to rival the NHL is a little ridiculous.
I dont think its that ridiculous at all. While it may take less than that to rival the nhl in terms of putting up 1 all star team, the NHL would never agree to this type of concept unless they were being legitimately threatened by this league. That means ALL their teams have to be competitive and the business side of it has to be sustainable as well.

For all we know, by the time that happens the NHL will have launched NHL Europe or whatever they want to call it, and we could be talking about whether THAT (with full support from NHL owners and probably loaned players as well) could compete with the KHL.

In my opinion, the battleground is never going to be in north america, and the KHL is just positioning themselves early for the coming showdown in Europe.

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08-27-2008, 11:39 AM
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WalterSobchak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Bold font aside, you were the one who said that "think(ing) that the KHL is going to take 10 years to rival the NHL is a little ridiculous," implying that another's opinion was a little ridiculous.

So you clearly think that the KHL will rival the NHL in less than ten years. Why do you feel that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
Based upon what I have read in regards to the amount of sheer capital the investers who are behind the KHL have potentially at their disposal, I believe the KHL to be a legitimate competitor to the NHL.
It is smart for the countries infrastructure for them to build a strong homegrown business for hockey. It serves itself so I believe the money they have will grow the KHL and it is a legitimate threat where as other startups in the last 30 years or whatever have not. If what I am reading in regards to said capital is correct, it doesn't seem that they are concerned with their gate receipts for quite a few years and are willing to take the loss that is necessary to become an actual competitor.

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08-27-2008, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
I dont think its that ridiculous at all. While it may take less than that to rival the nhl in terms of putting up 1 all star team, the NHL would never agree to this type of concept unless they were being legitimately threatened by this league. That means ALL their teams have to be competitive and the business side of it has to be sustainable as well.

For all we know, by the time that happens the NHL will have launched NHL Europe or whatever they want to call it, and we could be talking about whether THAT (with full support from NHL owners and probably loaned players as well) could compete with the KHL.

In my opinion, the battleground is never going to be in north america, and the KHL is just positioning themselves early for the coming showdown in Europe.
that is an excellent point as well. My concern is that the NHL expanding to Europe would severely strain their resources and be prohibitive but that is definately an interesting idea and just as plausible. Perhaps even more-so.

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