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#33 to be retired in November 2008?

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Old
09-02-2008, 02:53 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yeah, I forgot that one...

But you have to consider the trophy wasn't given in Sawchuk and Plante's time.


And Roy's Playoff win% is ,611 while Brodeur is ,562...

And Roy didn't have the two Scotts and Lemaire's trap to help him out.

I'd take Roy over Brodeur in their prime, any day of the week. Roy might not be as consistent in the regular season, but he's the one true dominant force between the two in the playoffs.

If we include the playoff success as the most important factor and then the regular season, my personal top 10 goes like this :

1- Roy
2- Sawchuk
3- Plante
4- Dryden
5- Parent
6- Brodeur
7- Hasek
8- Durnan
9- Vézina
10 - Hainsworth
My hesitation in considering Roy the greatest is the up and down years. He had some bad playoffs, blew shots in key games, but you can't deny that his peaks were as high as anyone's and it tends to blur the valleys a bit.

Personally, I'd rank Hasek higher, and Glenn Hall is on any list that I'd make, but I find golaies very hard to choose from.


I just haven't seen numbers on golaies that convinces me that golaie x is better than goalie y. At a point, I think of opposing goalies that gave me the ' we just can't beat this guy' feeling. Hall and Hasek are the 2 that consistently made me feel that way. Frankly, Brodeur has had me feel like a game's over long before the 3rd period starts as well.

I'm going to take a look at how they ranked goalie's on the History board, some of the guys there do an exhaustive analysis, and it's worth looking at .

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09-02-2008, 02:58 PM
  #102
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My hesitation in considering Roy the greatest is the up and down years. He had some bad playoffs, blew shots in key games, but you can't deny that his peaks were as high as anyone's and it tends to blur the valleys a bit.

Personally, I'd rank Hasek higher, and Glenn Hall is on any list that I'd make, but I find golaies very hard to choose from.


I just haven't seen numbers on golaies that convinces me that golaie x is better than goalie y. At a point, I think of opposing goalies that gave me the ' we just can't beat this guy' feeling. Hall and Hasek are the 2 that consistently made me feel that way. Frankly, Brodeur has had me feel like a game's over long before the 3rd period starts as well.

I'm going to take a look at how they ranked goalie's on the History board, some of the guys there do an exhaustive analysis, and it's worth looking at .
I find it difficult to rank them as well. I mean, sure you can make a top 5, or top 10 list. But giving specific ranks is really difficult. Different eras, different teams in front of the goalies, different systems. And the goalies themselves all had different strenghts and weaknesses.

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09-02-2008, 03:11 PM
  #103
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The fact that he uses his status as a hall of fame goalie to play mind games with 16 years old at tournaments, I don't care about.

The fact he'll order his son to go beat the hell out of the other team's goalie at the junior level, don't really care that much about.

The fact he'll ridicule a 19 years old first NHL goal at a press conference, I don't care about.

The fact he will crap on the habs at every turn ever since he's come back to Québec, I don't care that much about.
That makes him a giant ass and a huge jerk, but all of this shouldn't really come into play in wether or not his jersey should be retired.

The fact he used the most controversial methods of all time and directly went to the president to ask for a trade during a game, cornering the worst management of the team's history into giving him away... that I can't just forget it. I think it should come into consideration when it's time to consider raising Roy's jersey to the rafters. With what he did that day, he spat on the jersey and put himself above the team. I think there should be more than just hockey performances for 11 seasons. I think dedication and his respect for the team should be considered. I think he failed miserably on that aspect with the actions he's taken.

Look at all the other names that are up there. Some held out a season for more money. Some retired because they felt they were misused. They didn't all leave in the best terms. They weren't all perfect outside the game except Béliveau. But they didn't go ahead and put themselves above the team. Roy on the other hand went straight to the president during a hockey game and said it was his last game with the team. None of the names that are on the jerseys that have been raised can be associated with any such disrespect for the team.

Roy could have done any number of things. He could have went to his spot and raged a little bit, then went to Houle AFTER the game and asked for a trade. And if he had done that, I wouldn't be having this argument at all.

At the very least, his actions don't warrant raising his jersey to the rafters that soon. He should wait like more deserving players had to wait before him. Players that had as much/more success with the habs and didn't disrespect the team. If it were up to me, his jersey would just never go up there.

And before I get people telling me I hold a grudge. I don't care about Roy that much anymore. I just think he should be held accountable for his actions. That we shouldn't just shrug it off like it doesn't matter. What he did in that game against the red wings was big. As far as I know, no player in any sport has ever done something like that. It should be held against him. Now, you be the judge how important it is. But at least don't just shrug it off. It has to be considered.

Also, I wonder how many of you people that are pulling so hard for Roy's jersey to be retired would be this adamant if Roy had gone on to suck ass with the avalanches.

The bolded part is so not true. Please provide some quotes, as I heard several times Roy talk positively about the Habs in the last few years. He even said that he wouldn't have left the Habs if things had turned out differently. He even comes to the Bell Center from time to time to watch the Habs practice, as he's a good friend of Carbonneau.

For the rest, it would be helpful if you realized he didn't "spit" on the Habs jersey and the fans. I'm sure that was the last thing Roy wanted to do. He was spitting on Tremblay and Corey that night and for obvious reasons. I'm not trying to absolve him of what he did, but I've never held him responsible for the ordeal. He did have his share of blame, but not to the extent you are trying to make it sound. When I play sports, I am very emotional, I hate to lose and I can understand Roy's reaction, especially since Tremblay was trying to win an ego faceoff against Roy, which is the stupidiest thing a coach could do, especially when the player concerned was the best player on two cup runs (almost three) in the past ten years and was the most respected player in the lockeroom.

For what it's worth, it's only one day on an entire career where egos clashed, and Roy wasn't the sole perp there, nor were his actions directed against the Habs themselves nor their fans.

As for your speculation about Roy sucking donkey scrotum with the Habs, I could also speculate what if the Habs never hired Tremblay, whom they knew Roy had bad blood with.... we could speculate on many things.

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09-02-2008, 03:16 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The bolded part is so not true. Please provide some quotes, as I heard several times Roy talk positively about the Habs in the last few years. He even said that he wouldn't have left the Habs if things had turned out differently. He even comes to the Bell Center from time to time to watch the Habs practice, as he's a good friend of Carbonneau.

For the rest, it would be helpful if you realized he didn't "spit" on the Habs jersey and the fans. I'm sure that was the last thing Roy wanted to do. He was spitting on Tremblay and Corey that night and for obvious reasons. I'm not trying to absolve him of what he did, but I've never held him responsible for the ordeal. He did have his share of blame, but not to the extent you are trying to make it sound. When I play sports, I am very emotional, I hate to lose and I can understand Roy's reaction, especially since Tremblay was trying to win an ego faceoff against Roy, which is the stupidiest thing a coach could do, especially when the player concerned was the best player on two cup runs (almost three) in the past ten years and was the most respected player in the lockeroom.

For what it's worth, it's only one day on an entire career where egos clashed, and Roy wasn't the sole perp there, nor were his actions directed against the Habs themselves nor their fans.

As for your speculation about Roy sucking donkey scrotum with the Habs, I could also speculate what if the Habs never hired Tremblay, whom they knew Roy had bad blood with.... we could speculate on many things.
Is this actual fact or an urban legend that's been said so often it's become fact ? Yeah I've heard about angry words in a coffee shop, but what gives here ? Tremblay didn't go after him on air that I recall, where does that come from ?

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09-02-2008, 03:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
My hesitation in considering Roy the greatest is the up and down years. He had some bad playoffs, blew shots in key games, but you can't deny that his peaks were as high as anyone's and it tends to blur the valleys a bit.

Personally, I'd rank Hasek higher, and Glenn Hall is on any list that I'd make, but I find golaies very hard to choose from.


I just haven't seen numbers on golaies that convinces me that golaie x is better than goalie y. At a point, I think of opposing goalies that gave me the ' we just can't beat this guy' feeling. Hall and Hasek are the 2 that consistently made me feel that way. Frankly, Brodeur has had me feel like a game's over long before the 3rd period starts as well.

I'm going to take a look at how they ranked goalie's on the History board, some of the guys there do an exhaustive analysis, and it's worth looking at .
Oh, I had that same feeling about Hasek. The problem is, he never got the cup until he was with a real contender. He never was dominant enough in the playoffs. HE never rose to the same level as Roy. That feeling you say that you had with Hasek and Brodeur of a game being done before the 3rd is even started, might also be due to the fact that we never had Roy compete against the Habs on a regular basis. It's easier to have that feeling for an opposing goalie who is dominating than having that feeling for the goalie on your team. When I watched the avalanche with Roy, I often felt it was over for the other team way before the game was over, especially in the playoffs. For what it's worth, I'd put Hasek at #1 for regular season success.

As I mentioned before, I base my personal list on playoff performance as a gauge before regular season success.

You might say Roy had some bad playoffs, but all goalies do, unless they are with a dynasty as several on the list were. The point is, Roy is probably the one who had the most playoff success and held his team on his shoulders the most for his playoff success, without being on a dynasty/main contender.

As for Glenn Hall, I wanted to put him on the list, but to me, must of the others accomplished more.

It's a hard list to do, and again, it is my personal choices.

Some of those goalies I named weren't in the league for a long time, but totally dominated, like Durnan and Dryden. I just don't give that much weight to regular season performance.

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09-02-2008, 03:33 PM
  #106
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Is this actual fact or an urban legend that's been said so often it's become fact ? Yeah I've heard about angry words in a coffee shop, but what gives here ? Tremblay didn't go after him on air that I recall, where does that come from ?
I remember hearing at the time that Roy was treated like a Prima Dona by Jacques Demers. When Tremblay came in they immediately clashed over the fact that he promised to end that treatment.

Under Demers Roy choose when he started and when the backup got a game; this was one of the first policies scrapped under Tremblay.

Did Roy deserve these type of coddlings; its debateable. But when they were taken away they led to the inevitable clashes.

Roy apparently asked to be pulled after the first period of the Detroit game, but Tremblay left him in saying it wasnt Roy's call, it was the coaches and he needed to understand that and he was leaving him in to knock him down a peg or two. It blew up in Tremblay's face.

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09-02-2008, 03:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The bolded part is so not true. Please provide some quotes, as I heard several times Roy talk positively about the Habs in the last few years. He even said that he wouldn't have left the Habs if things had turned out differently. He even comes to the Bell Center from time to time to watch the Habs practice, as he's a good friend of Carbonneau.
Something about the avalanches not having to develop their own goalies anymore since they could just come and take them from the canadiens (following the Theodore trade).

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For the rest, it would be helpful if you realized he didn't "spit" on the Habs jersey and the fans. I'm sure that was the last thing Roy wanted to do. He was spitting on Tremblay and Corey that night and for obvious reasons. I'm not trying to absolve him of what he did, but I've never held him responsible for the ordeal. He did have his share of blame, but not to the extent you are trying to make it sound. When I play sports, I am very emotional, I hate to lose and I can understand Roy's reaction, especially since Tremblay was trying to win an ego faceoff against Roy, which is the stupidiest thing a coach could do, especially when the player concerned was the best player on two cup runs (almost three) in the past ten years and was the most respected player in the lockeroom.

For what it's worth, it's only one day on an entire career where egos clashed, and Roy wasn't the sole perp there, nor were his actions directed against the Habs themselves nor their fans.
I did not say it was only his fault. But everyone tends to excuse Roy's actions cuz it takes two to tango. But he's responsible for what he did. Also, he tried to be bigger than the coach at the time. Mario was trying to establish his position as a coach. Players shouldn't be questionning the coach no matter how much of a moron he is. If you can't stand it, you go to the GM and give the ultimatum to be traded or the coach to be replaced. But you don't do what Roy did.

And no matter how you look at it, it's an act of complete disrespect agaist the team for him to have done what he did.

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As for your speculation about Roy sucking donkey scrotum with the Habs, I could also speculate what if the Habs never hired Tremblay, whom they knew Roy had bad blood with.... we could speculate on many things.
We knew that ?

And my speculation is not actual speculation. It's just another way of telling people not to consider his time with the avs and just his time with the habs. Which is the only thing that should matter anyway. Yours is complete speculation about possibly more seasons with the habs based on something I wasn't actually aware was true.

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09-02-2008, 03:38 PM
  #108
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Is this actual fact or an urban legend that's been said so often it's become fact ? Yeah I've heard about angry words in a coffee shop, but what gives here ? Tremblay didn't go after him on air that I recall, where does that come from ?
If anything, it's Roy who had something against Tremblay even before he started.

Anyone remember Roy saying : "When I heard about the news I had to go take a cold shower" when Tremblay became coach ?

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09-02-2008, 03:40 PM
  #109
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My hesitation in considering Roy the greatest is the up and down years. He had some bad playoffs, blew shots in key games, but you can't deny that his peaks were as high as anyone's and it tends to blur the valleys a bit.

Personally, I'd rank Hasek higher, and Glenn Hall is on any list that I'd make, but I find golaies very hard to choose from.


I just haven't seen numbers on golaies that convinces me that golaie x is better than goalie y. At a point, I think of opposing goalies that gave me the ' we just can't beat this guy' feeling. Hall and Hasek are the 2 that consistently made me feel that way. Frankly, Brodeur has had me feel like a game's over long before the 3rd period starts as well.

I'm going to take a look at how they ranked goalie's on the History board, some of the guys there do an exhaustive analysis, and it's worth looking at .
When I rank Goalies I always ask myself one question... if I had to play a game 7 tomorrow who would I want in net. Who was the best in the biggest pressure games??

And when i look at Roy and Hasek I have a tough time choosing but I think I've come up with a good way of answering the question.

1) My team is equal, or near equal in talent to the team i am facing. I want Patrick Roy in net, the other team can have Hasek. I think Roy is the more consistent winner in clutch situations and I've never seen anyone better in those types of games. In fact my Rank here goes.... 1) Roy... 2) Brodeur... 3) Hasek

2) My team is greatly outclassed. Picture a matchup between next years Detroit Red Wings and I'm coming into the game with an AHL squad at best. Quite frankly I need a miracle to pull this off. I expect to be outplayed, outshot, and dominated throughout the game. I don't expect to win no matter who I take as the goalie, but I need the goalie who gives me the best chance of pulling a miracle out of his ass and somehow winning the game. 1) Hasek 2) Roy 3) Brodeur


Now this isn't an all-time rank... I have a hard time ranking Dryden, Parent, Plante, Hall, Esposito, Sawchuk and others who were before my time.

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09-02-2008, 03:41 PM
  #110
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I remember hearing at the time that Roy was treated like a Prima Dona by Jacques Demers. When Tremblay came in they immediately clashed over the fact that he promised to end that treatment.

Under Demers Roy choose when he started and when the backup got a game; this was one of the first policies scrapped under Tremblay.

Did Roy deserve these type of coddlings; its debateable. But when they were taken away they led to the inevitable clashes.

Roy apparently asked to be pulled after the first period of the Detroit game, but Tremblay left him in saying it wasnt Roy's call, it was the coaches and he needed to understand that and he was leaving him in to knock him down a peg or two. It blew up in Tremblay's face.

I guess what I'm wondering is if there was a pre-existing issue and I just don't remember one.

A lot of things happened in Tremblay's few months leading up to that night and I wouldn't say it was ineveitable but it's easy to understand how things blew up.

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09-02-2008, 03:42 PM
  #111
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I remember hearing at the time that Roy was treated like a Prima Dona by Jacques Demers. When Tremblay came in they immediately clashed over the fact that he promised to end that treatment.

Under Demers Roy choose when he started and when the backup got a game; this was one of the first policies scrapped under Tremblay.

Did Roy deserve these type of coddlings; its debateable. But when they were taken away they led to the inevitable clashes.

Roy apparently asked to be pulled after the first period of the Detroit game, but Tremblay left him in saying it wasnt Roy's call, it was the coaches and he needed to understand that and he was leaving him in to knock him down a peg or two. It blew up in Tremblay's face.
Unfortunetly for us, Tremblay was no Phil Jackson.

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09-02-2008, 03:49 PM
  #112
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Unfortunetly for us, Tremblay was no Phil Jackson.
See this is where I have problems with people that absolve Roy of all wrong doings. Everyone that tend to apologize every one of Roy's actions just tend to make a bunch of excuses about Roy having a hot temper and then point fingers at Tremblay.

Tremblay had his heart in the right place. He thought he was doing the right thing by not giving preferential treatment to any player. That's how he got coached, and that's what he felt was right. Roy was spoiled like a baby with Demers and wouldn't accept not being the unnoficial coach.

I don't understand the hatred for Tremblay to be honest. He was a rookie coach put in a really bad position to begin with.

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09-02-2008, 04:01 PM
  #113
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May as well post a few things that led to Roy/Tremblay gate.

Yeah, Roy was picking and chooisng when he'd play and apparently was very dictatorial about it. I've been told that if you want to know how pleasant that was, ask Ron Tugnutt.

Mario Tremblay was doing well in media, very popular, used his rapid fire speaking style to great advantage. He had been rumoured to be an asst. coach with the Nords, and I remember him saying, 'I'd listen'.

When hired, for the wrong reasons, he brought along Cournoyer for the same wrong reason , the mistaken beliefe that, passion and devotion to the CH was enough to guide the team.

Tremblay had early success. The team started winning. Turtgeon was hot, Damphousse was too. Since he was a media guy, he enjoyed early popularity and was toasted by all the guys who had ,in their opinions, an in with the team.

Roy resented Tremblay's face getting all the air time, being the new poster boy. The team was doing well but really, the staff was basically just exhorting them to try hard.

Tremblay, like Roy, had an ego, an unnatural ammount of competitivness. When Detroit came to town, Tremblay did a bit of talking. I don't think Mario was ever a Bowman fan. Scotty would bench Tremblay when the folks came up from Alam to watch him, because A] he just didn't like him, or B], he wanted Tremblay to play pissed off.

I don't think Tremblay ever forgot and he wanted to beat him badly. Bowman made sure that wouldn't happen and made sure his team grasped that this one meant something special to him and they poured it on.

I remember Steve Shutt talking about it a few years later. When the goals started going in rapid fire, Tremblay and co. froze, it was deer in the headlight time. Shutt said there was no message being sent, but after the fans jeered him, Tremblay thought they'd make it worse by yanking him. By then, you had 2 guys with egos, thinking it was their team, and frankly it's lucky they didn't fight in the corridor.

The second after Roy spoke to Corey, Tremblay was out of it, it was Corey's ballgame.

Another thing people forget is that by the end of the season, pre playoffs, most were reasonably content with the deal. The Colorado players were producing, Thibault played well. Then, we all know how things played out, Kovalenko was human garbage, Thibault wasn't made for that type of pressure and Rucinsky was just a good player.

So yeah, I believe that Tremblay's ego was a big factor, but it was easy to see how it happened. I can picture Serge Savard watching after 3 weeks, and saying, just wait.

The low point of that era, to me was when Brashear had his feud with Tremblay and went public, and among other things, ridiculed Cournoyer. Things fell apart soon after, a few journalists, in a remarkable example of the 2 solitudes coming to together, Tremblay and Todd, planned out a campaign to insult him at every turn.

He had to go and the sad thing was that Houle wasn't removed at the same time.

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09-02-2008, 04:04 PM
  #114
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Something about the avalanches not having to develop their own goalies anymore since they could just come and take them from the canadiens (following the Theodore trade).
That was one time, 3 years ago... Your "every chance he gets" is extremely exagerated and shows your bias. I could pull out quotes from the last three years where he is very positive about the Habs, but don't let that stop you.


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I did not say it was only his fault. But everyone tends to excuse Roy's actions cuz it takes two to tango. But he's responsible for what he did. Also, he tried to be bigger than the coach at the time. Mario was trying to establish his position as a coach. Players shouldn't be questionning the coach no matter how much of a moron he is. If you can't stand it, you go to the GM and give the ultimatum to be traded or the coach to be replaced. But you don't do what Roy did.
And the coach tried to be bigger than the most respected guy in the lockeroom. It wasn't Roy who started this, it was Tremblay who wanted to act à la Keenan, but you make it sound as if it was the other way around. Tremblay was going at it the wrong way. You don't establish yourself as the coach, the leader, by trying to break the best player on the team. That was, to me, a worst attempt to try and spit on the Habs and the fans. Putting his ego higher than everything else, putting himself before what was important for the team. Who says Roy didn't ask for Tremblay to be booted out. This might explain why he went to Corey when he was pulled off against Detroit. It's easy to put the blame on the guy you see his actions directly in the game, while you have no clue of what was going on behind closed doors. That's why I don't take Roy's actions personaly, that's why I don't see it as something he did against the Habs, but against two men in the organization who were ruining something that had worked well for over 11 years. The point is, we can presume a lot of things, but to judge Roy on this without knowing what really happened behind closed doors in the previous weeks and months before this event.

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And no matter how you look at it, it's an act of complete disrespect agaist the team for him to have done what he did.
As he might have felt a total disrespect from the team. He's a big ego, it's eye for eye.

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We knew that ?
You?? We?? Try reading what I say. COREY, that is. If he knew what was going on between them, why didn't he intervene, why didn't he do something about it. He let Tremblay bully around the team's best player.

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And my speculation is not actual speculation. It's just another way of telling people not to consider his time with the avs and just his time with the habs. Which is the only thing that should matter anyway. Yours is complete speculation about possibly more seasons with the habs based on something I wasn't actually aware was true.
Then go read the definition of speculation, because it is speculation, as much as my example. Also, you presume I do count his time with the Avs, but actually, two Conn Smythes, three stanley cup finals and two cups won in 10 seasons is quite enough for me. Not to mention all those divisional titles, which was never won until last year.

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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
See this is where I have problems with people that absolve Roy of all wrong doings. Everyone that tend to apologize every one of Roy's actions just tend to make a bunch of excuses about Roy having a hot temper and then point fingers at Tremblay.

Tremblay had his heart in the right place. He thought he was doing the right thing by not giving preferential treatment to any player. That's how he got coached, and that's what he felt was right. Roy was spoiled like a baby with Demers and wouldn't accept not being the unnoficial coach.

I don't understand the hatred for Tremblay to be honest. He was a rookie coach put in a really bad position to begin with.
Still.... you have a superstar, you deal with him as a superstar. That's the reason for the comparison. And Tremblay is definetly no Phil Jackson who knew how to treat the best player that league ever had. An owner who was also greatful for all the things that player did and heeded to every one of his demands. That's how you win in professional sports. Tremblay was the wrong man, at the wrong time, at the wrong place. I stand by my statement.

And also, don't put words in my mouth, read my previous post. I did say Roy had his share of blame to take.


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09-02-2008, 04:54 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
The point was that there was a part of his career that he was considered the best goalie in the league that happens to be a time when all goalies were wearing smaller gear. Small gear or Big Gear Roy was still a great goalie.
I agree. He was a great goalie. Never said otherwise.

However, it seems that on this board if you say that his records will be taken by another goalie you somehow said "Roy was not a good goalie". If you say that he should wait to have his jersey retired you are labelled a "Roy hater". You can't have an opinion and voice it on this subject unless you agree with the masses.

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09-02-2008, 05:08 PM
  #116
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Excellent post mcphee (#113)

I'd like to add that Demers also had a lot of influence on Patrick's behavior. Demer's was quoted as saying that he babied Roy, allowing him to miss practices, and other team functions if Patrick didn't feel like attending.

No one else was given this right, only Patrick. So when Tremblay took over as the Head coach. His philosophy was to treat all the players as equals. Looking back on it now, I'm actually surprised that there wasn't a blowup sooner.

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09-02-2008, 05:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Go on the NJ board.

You sound like a hardcore Brodeur fanboy.

Brodeur has always worn the biggest gear possible too. If you did watch Roy, in his first 8 seasons, you'd know full well that he played almost half his career with much smaller gear than what Brodeur was used to, never mind the 15% decrease in 04-05 (only 3 seasons of play WOW what a difference, especially since we are talking about at least 8 seasons where Roy had much much smaller equipement) This argument is ridiculous. And the one about the olympic gold is too. They didn't have the same team in front of them. Also, Brodeur played most of his career with two of the 10 best defensemen the league had in the last 20 years.

As far as I am concerned, Roy will remain the best goalie no matter what Brodeur does. Brodeur has still a lot to do to rain on Roy's legacy, as he's still one cup short, and THREE CONN SMYTHE short of Roy. Brodeur (92) will most certainly never reach Roy's (151) victory total for the playoffs and considering this, he (633) might not reach Roy's (702) total career victories (Seasons + playoffs). So to actually say that Brodeur will beat all of Roy's records shortly is somewhat absurd and shows your bias.

No other goalie than Roy has won 3 Conn Smythe, and the list of goalies who have won 4 cups is extremely short, and Brodeur is not part of it yet.

Don't tell me where to post and what board I should post to. Unless you have the authority to tell people where to post I suggest you simply shut up. Your opinion is yours and you are welcome to it but don't tell me what to say or think and where I can do both of those.

You sound like a hardcore Roy fanboy yourself. Brodeur IS on pace to break most of Roy's records and if you don't agree that's your business. To call that fact absurd is ridiculous and shows your bias not mine.

You make no sense when you say that there was a different team in front of Roy at the Olympics. Roy sucked in Nagano but he insisted on playing every game and we came back with squat, losing bronze to Finland when Brodeur should have at least got that game. You can blame the team in front of him if you want to support your view. It seems that whenever Roy failed it was the team in front of him and when he won it was all about him. You can't win this debate with a fanboy.

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09-02-2008, 06:07 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
I agree. He was a great goalie. Never said otherwise.

However, it seems that on this board if you say that his records will be taken by another goalie you somehow said "Roy was not a good goalie". If you say that he should wait to have his jersey retired you are labelled a "Roy hater". You can't have an opinion and voice it on this subject unless you agree with the masses.
Well I disagree with your Roy assessement. However, I do agree with the idea that everyone should be allowed to post their opinion without being labeled a "hater" if they disagree with what most people think. It would be pretty boring here if everyone had the same opinion.

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09-02-2008, 06:13 PM
  #119
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The fact that he uses his status as a hall of fame goalie to play mind games with 16 years old at tournaments, I don't care about.

The fact he'll order his son to go beat the hell out of the other team's goalie at the junior level, don't really care that much about.

The fact he'll ridicule a 19 years old first NHL goal at a press conference, I don't care about.

The fact he will crap on the habs at every turn ever since he's come back to Québec, I don't care that much about.

That makes him a giant ass and a huge jerk, but all of this shouldn't really come into play in wether or not his jersey should be retired.

The fact he used the most controversial methods of all time and directly went to the president to ask for a trade during a game, cornering the worst management of the team's history into giving him away... that I can't just forget it. I think it should come into consideration when it's time to consider raising Roy's jersey to the rafters. With what he did that day, he spat on the jersey and put himself above the team. I think there should be more than just hockey performances for 11 seasons. I think dedication and his respect for the team should be considered. I think he failed miserably on that aspect with the actions he's taken.

Look at all the other names that are up there. Some held out a season for more money. Some retired because they felt they were misused. They didn't all leave in the best terms. They weren't all perfect outside the game except Béliveau. But they didn't go ahead and put themselves above the team. Roy on the other hand went straight to the president during a hockey game and said it was his last game with the team. None of the names that are on the jerseys that have been raised can be associated with any such disrespect for the team.

Roy could have done any number of things. He could have went to his spot and raged a little bit, then went to Houle AFTER the game and asked for a trade. And if he had done that, I wouldn't be having this argument at all.

At the very least, his actions don't warrant raising his jersey to the rafters that soon. He should wait like more deserving players had to wait before him. Players that had as much/more success with the habs and didn't disrespect the team. If it were up to me, his jersey would just never go up there.

And before I get people telling me I hold a grudge. I don't care about Roy that much anymore. I just think he should be held accountable for his actions. That we shouldn't just shrug it off like it doesn't matter. What he did in that game against the red wings was big. As far as I know, no player in any sport has ever done something like that. It should be held against him. Now, you be the judge how important it is. But at least don't just shrug it off. It has to be considered.

Also, I wonder how many of you people that are pulling so hard for Roy's jersey to be retired would be this adamant if Roy had gone on to suck ass with the avalanches.
Great post. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, when I look at the numbers in the rafters, with maybe the exception of Guy Lafleur, those guys are a heck of a lot more than hockey players. They are role models on and off the ice. Roy?... not so much. Should it matter? That's where the opinions change. Glad I'm not making that call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I remember hearing at the time that Roy was treated like a Prima Dona by Jacques Demers. When Tremblay came in they immediately clashed over the fact that he promised to end that treatment.

Under Demers Roy choose when he started and when the backup got a game; this was one of the first policies scrapped under Tremblay.

Did Roy deserve these type of coddlings; its debateable. But when they were taken away they led to the inevitable clashes.

Roy apparently asked to be pulled after the first period of the Detroit game, but Tremblay left him in saying it wasnt Roy's call, it was the coaches and he needed to understand that and he was leaving him in to knock him down a peg or two. It blew up in Tremblay's face.
Perhaps, but it's not Tremblay who had the knee-jerking decision of making a fool out of himself in front of a live audience. Had Roy thought about the team and his own fans, he would have gone to the dressing room, had a cold shower and would have asked for a private meeting. Unfortunately, the number in the back was more important than the logo in front of the jersey. Not taking all blame away from Tremblay, he had his role in this thing, but I refuse to go the total opposite way and clear Roy of any wrong doing, as he did it to the team, his fans and ultimately, to himself. Seeing Jonathan (his son) lose his cool last year I was thinking that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
May as well post a few things that led to Roy/Tremblay gate.

Yeah, Roy was picking and chooisng when he'd play and apparently was very dictatorial about it. I've been told that if you want to know how pleasant that was, ask Ron Tugnutt.

Mario Tremblay was doing well in media, very popular, used his rapid fire speaking style to great advantage. He had been rumoured to be an asst. coach with the Nords, and I remember him saying, 'I'd listen'.

When hired, for the wrong reasons, he brought along Cournoyer for the same wrong reason , the mistaken beliefe that, passion and devotion to the CH was enough to guide the team.

Tremblay had early success. The team started winning. Turtgeon was hot, Damphousse was too. Since he was a media guy, he enjoyed early popularity and was toasted by all the guys who had ,in their opinions, an in with the team.

Roy resented Tremblay's face getting all the air time, being the new poster boy. The team was doing well but really, the staff was basically just exhorting them to try hard.

Tremblay, like Roy, had an ego, an unnatural ammount of competitivness. When Detroit came to town, Tremblay did a bit of talking. I don't think Mario was ever a Bowman fan. Scotty would bench Tremblay when the folks came up from Alam to watch him, because A] he just didn't like him, or B], he wanted Tremblay to play pissed off.

I don't think Tremblay ever forgot and he wanted to beat him badly. Bowman made sure that wouldn't happen and made sure his team grasped that this one meant something special to him and they poured it on.

I remember Steve Shutt talking about it a few years later. When the goals started going in rapid fire, Tremblay and co. froze, it was deer in the headlight time. Shutt said there was no message being sent, but after the fans jeered him, Tremblay thought they'd make it worse by yanking him. By then, you had 2 guys with egos, thinking it was their team, and frankly it's lucky they didn't fight in the corridor.

The second after Roy spoke to Corey, Tremblay was out of it, it was Corey's ballgame.

Another thing people forget is that by the end of the season, pre playoffs, most were reasonably content with the deal. The Colorado players were producing, Thibault played well. Then, we all know how things played out, Kovalenko was human garbage, Thibault wasn't made for that type of pressure and Rucinsky was just a good player.

So yeah, I believe that Tremblay's ego was a big factor, but it was easy to see how it happened. I can picture Serge Savard watching after 3 weeks, and saying, just wait.

The low point of that era, to me was when Brashear had his feud with Tremblay and went public, and among other things, ridiculed Cournoyer. Things fell apart soon after, a few journalists, in a remarkable example of the 2 solitudes coming to together, Tremblay and Todd, planned out a campaign to insult him at every turn.

He had to go and the sad thing was that Houle wasn't removed at the same time.
Another great post mcphee. Great read.

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09-02-2008, 06:19 PM
  #120
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As for the Roy vs Brodeur, not to get that thread off-topic, I've posted an extensive explanation with stats and all in the following thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...0#post15243440

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09-02-2008, 07:32 PM
  #121
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Let me make something very clear about "Le Trade":

I don't care what player it was who did what Roy did. If it was Richard, I'd have the same opinion on the matter. As I stated, I didn't like Roy during that time and by the time he retired, it really didn't fix anything. Roy never bet against the Habs. He never threw a game and he never tried to bankrupt the team. He got pissed off at a bad coaching call and people think this means there should be some timeline to when his number goes up.

People forget its a marketing decision. If we were in the Canadiens 108th season, we wouldn't be retiring 4 numbers in two seasons.

I love how certain people are acting so "Poor me!" about their opinion and thinking as if the "masses" are attacking them for their opinion. If you have an opinion that differs with a few people on a message board, stop acting like a victim and just stand by it. It's not going to change anything.

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09-02-2008, 07:43 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Let me make something very clear about "Le Trade":

I don't care what player it was who did what Roy did. If it was Richard, I'd have the same opinion on the matter. As I stated, I didn't like Roy during that time and by the time he retired, it really didn't fix anything. Roy never bet against the Habs. He never threw a game and he never tried to bankrupt the team. He got pissed off at a bad coaching call and people think this means there should be some timeline to when his number goes up.

People forget its a marketing decision. If we were in the Canadiens 108th season, we wouldn't be retiring 4 numbers in two seasons.

I love how certain people are acting so "Poor me!" about their opinion and thinking as if the "masses" are attacking them for their opinion. If you have an opinion that differs with a few people on a message board, stop acting like a victim and just stand by it. It's not going to change anything.
I've heard some say that he should face a waiting period, not so much for any character issues, but in that players like Robinson and others had to wait.

You're right, it is a marketing decision and it's being done as part of the 100th hoopla and further to give the largest demographic of the fanbase one of their guys to celebrate.

Butch Bouchard may be very deserving but he wouldn't be as sexy a choice.

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09-02-2008, 09:32 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
May as well post a few things that led to Roy/Tremblay gate.

Yeah, Roy was picking and chooisng when he'd play and apparently was very dictatorial about it. I've been told that if you want to know how pleasant that was, ask Ron Tugnutt.

Mario Tremblay was doing well in media, very popular, used his rapid fire speaking style to great advantage. He had been rumoured to be an asst. coach with the Nords, and I remember him saying, 'I'd listen'.

When hired, for the wrong reasons, he brought along Cournoyer for the same wrong reason , the mistaken beliefe that, passion and devotion to the CH was enough to guide the team.

Tremblay had early success. The team started winning. Turtgeon was hot, Damphousse was too. Since he was a media guy, he enjoyed early popularity and was toasted by all the guys who had ,in their opinions, an in with the team.

Roy resented Tremblay's face getting all the air time, being the new poster boy. The team was doing well but really, the staff was basically just exhorting them to try hard.

Tremblay, like Roy, had an ego, an unnatural ammount of competitivness. When Detroit came to town, Tremblay did a bit of talking. I don't think Mario was ever a Bowman fan. Scotty would bench Tremblay when the folks came up from Alam to watch him, because A] he just didn't like him, or B], he wanted Tremblay to play pissed off.

I don't think Tremblay ever forgot and he wanted to beat him badly. Bowman made sure that wouldn't happen and made sure his team grasped that this one meant something special to him and they poured it on.

I remember Steve Shutt talking about it a few years later. When the goals started going in rapid fire, Tremblay and co. froze, it was deer in the headlight time. Shutt said there was no message being sent, but after the fans jeered him, Tremblay thought they'd make it worse by yanking him. By then, you had 2 guys with egos, thinking it was their team, and frankly it's lucky they didn't fight in the corridor.

The second after Roy spoke to Corey, Tremblay was out of it, it was Corey's ballgame.

Another thing people forget is that by the end of the season, pre playoffs, most were reasonably content with the deal. The Colorado players were producing, Thibault played well. Then, we all know how things played out, Kovalenko was human garbage, Thibault wasn't made for that type of pressure and Rucinsky was just a good player.

So yeah, I believe that Tremblay's ego was a big factor, but it was easy to see how it happened. I can picture Serge Savard watching after 3 weeks, and saying, just wait.

The low point of that era, to me was when Brashear had his feud with Tremblay and went public, and among other things, ridiculed Cournoyer. Things fell apart soon after, a few journalists, in a remarkable example of the 2 solitudes coming to together, Tremblay and Todd, planned out a campaign to insult him at every turn.

He had to go and the sad thing was that Houle wasn't removed at the same time.
Good read, I've had also heard that Carbonneau was a guy that helped keep Roy in check, so to speak. I don't know if that's true or not, but the Habs weren't right after Guy left. Could have been for a
myriad of reasons, as well, but Carbo strikes me as a guy that could keep the room together.

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09-02-2008, 09:37 PM
  #124
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Good read, I've had also heard that Carbonneau was a guy that helped keep Roy in check, so to speak. I don't know if that's true or not, but the Habs weren't right after Guy left. Could have been for a
myriad of reasons, as well, but Carbo strikes me as a guy that could keep the room together.
I've always had the impression that Carbo was 'one of the boys'. He enjoyed himself as much as anyone. Trading him the way they did was totally senseless. I guess after he left, the 80's guys were pretty well gone, and they were a pretty wild bunch.

That makes sense, though, as Roy became close to senior man on the team.

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09-03-2008, 06:22 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Let me make something very clear about "Le Trade":

I don't care what player it was who did what Roy did. If it was Richard, I'd have the same opinion on the matter. As I stated, I didn't like Roy during that time and by the time he retired, it really didn't fix anything. Roy never bet against the Habs. He never threw a game and he never tried to bankrupt the team. He got pissed off at a bad coaching call and people think this means there should be some timeline to when his number goes up.

People forget its a marketing decision. If we were in the Canadiens 108th season, we wouldn't be retiring 4 numbers in two seasons.

I love how certain people are acting so "Poor me!" about their opinion and thinking as if the "masses" are attacking them for their opinion. If you have an opinion that differs with a few people on a message board, stop acting like a victim and just stand by it. It's not going to change anything.
You are probably right that it is a marketing decision but it's a poor one and a controversial one to boot. There are plenty of people that don't necessarily agree that he should have his jersey up there. Do they have a vote? Of course not, it's not a democracy. It's managments call but if you strictly look at his time with the Habs then the case can be made against his jersey retirement.

If by "certain people" you meant me you need to re-read my post. I never come off as "poor me" and I don't care if "the masses" are attacking me and I have to defend my opinion. I am saying that this debate is polarized and you are either a hater or lover of Roy to those with little minds like yours. You can not possibly say "Roy was a great goalie but needs to wait to have his jersey retired" without being labelled a hater. That was my only point. I'm not whining about it or acting the victim. If you want to debate it just quote me and I'll defend my point of view. We come here with our opinion and debate and we will never change anybody's opinion no matter what we do. I'll never convince you Roy should not have the jersey retired and you can't convince me of the opposite.

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