Markov was better on special teams, but Komisarek was clearly better at even strength. Hamrlik is not even on the same playing field, Carbo rarely played him against the same caliber of opposition Komi and Markov played against regularly.
Please, if you're going to yell and cuss at us, put some facts somewhere in there.
I think most would admit that 7mil per would be a stretch, but Komisarek's value around the league should ensure that he gets more than 4.5.
Your assessment is quite ridiculous. Those crappy stats don't prove anything.
Komisarek is not better defensively than Markov. Hamrlik was a beast throughout the season, and proved to be quite the solid veteran, he was better than Komi defensively. Hamrlik had his fair share of very good players to defend. Not to mention half of the games in a season is played ''Away'', where you don't have the luxury of choosing which lines will face the top opposition's lines. So its not like Markov/Komi played vs the top lines for 82Games, and Hamrlik vs 3rd liners for 82Games.
What about Turnovers?..Errors??..failed clearing attempts??..Number of times saved by your defensive partner?..Number of successful 1on1 defending?..etc
You think 3 Stats will give you a precise assessment as to whom is the better defender???...please man, there's so much more important things to look at then just GA- TOI ES- +/-ES.
Also, Markov plays on the PP, so it makes a whole lot of sense that Komi gets a bit more ice time at ES seeing as he's not used on PP.
Markov is better defensively than Komi, as of last season. Maybe it'll change next year, but for now he is. And so was Hamrlik.
Komi's value should be around 4.5M at the most, I don't see too many defensive Dman being signed at 6M. Sure, I agree, he'd probably get a better offer around the league than 4.5M but he isn't worth that much.
You will be desapointed.. As expected and as I said years ago, Komi will never get the gratitude he deserves.. Im already laughing at imagining your face when you hear about his new contract, your arms will fell down..
You will be desapointed.. As expected and as I said years ago, Komi will never get the gratitude he deserves.. Im already laughing at imagining your face when you hear about his new contract, your arms will fell down..
Kostitsyn was worth 6 million too.
If Komisarek is signed for a PENNY more then 5million, Gainey overpayed and its a bad signing. Plekanec is FAR FAR FAR more important to sign right now then Komisarek. If Plekanec walks, who is our #1 center, a aged Koivu? Who is #2? Lapierre? Chipchura?
thats not his agent probleme if markov gets 5,750 he'll get what stupid market pays theres allways somone willing to pay more than you ever dream of.would you pay 4.1 million for a guy like steit no hamerlik got 5.5 ,so a guy like komi starting is best years ahead of him he,ll get much more
Markov left 1,5 millions per year on the table when he signed with Montréal. Knowing Komisarek personality, it's pretty safe he won't play hard ball with Gainey.
Your assessment is quite ridiculous. Those crappy stats don't prove anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
Komisarek is not better defensively than Markov. Hamrlik was a beast throughout the season, and proved to be quite the solid veteran, he was better than Komi defensively. Hamrlik had his fair share of very good players to defend. Not to mention half of the games in a season is played ''Away'', where you don't have the luxury of choosing which lines will face the top opposition's lines. So its not like Markov/Komi played vs the top lines for 82Games, and Hamrlik vs 3rd liners for 82Games.
It really depends on the game, but over the course of the season, there was a big difference in their level of competition (Komisarek and Hamrlik). Run some random games through http://www.timeonice.com/H2H0708.html, you'll see trends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
What about Turnovers?..Errors??
I don't like these stats because subjectivity starts creeping in. But, since you asked, here's the giveaways for the season, as seen by nhl.com:
Markov 92
Komi 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
...failed clearing attempts??..Number of times saved by your defensive partner?..Number of successful 1on1 defending?..etc.
I don't know where to find these, do you? To my naked eye, both defenders were very good at all the above. Komi probably saved Markov more than the other way around, if only because he was the last man back. This is not Markov's fault though, more due to his role as the offensive one in the pairing. They compliment each other well like that, Markov seemed at liberty to take more chances this year because of Komisarek's maturity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
You think 3 Stats will give you a precise assessment as to whom is the better defender???...please man, there's so much more important things to look at then just GA- TOI ES- +/-ES.
You should look up Corsi numbers, it's a fantastic stat. Highly repeatable, and highly correlated to winning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
Also, Markov plays on the PP, so it makes a whole lot of sense that Komi gets a bit more ice time at ES seeing as he's not used on PP.
Absolutely. My implied argument with that stat is, that in order to best use Markov's offensive skills, Komisarek has become the more relied upon defender at even strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
Markov is better defensively than Komi, as of last season. Maybe it'll change next year, but for now he is. And so was Hamrlik.
I've liked Komisarek since his rookie season, enjoyed watching his progression in the Organization.
The defining moment for me of Komisarek (up to this point) is the Game in which Montreal made that incredible comeback...Komisarek isn't given enough credit as the catalyst for that come back. I was so happy Komisarek was angry, playing with a 'cause' when the score was so lobsided...its like He took the team on his back and by his physicality, he told his team mates not to quit on him.
To all you guys who think Komisarek is worth 6-7 million a season: Get your ****ing heads out of the sand.
Komisarek is underated you say? League wide, outside the city of Montreal and the Habs board on HF? Yes.
On this board? He is RIDICULOUSLY OVERRATED!
Between you saying he is worth 6-7 million dollars, to the idiots I saw a couple months back saying he was our best defenseman! Have any of you ever watched a Habs game? Markov is a better defenseman, not even accounting for his offensive contributions. Hamrlik is also a step or two above Komisarek, at the moment. Jesus F&N Price guys.
4-4.5M per season, or walk. I promise you Gainey will take a similar aproach.
Ahem brother, ahem.
Is there any way to bet vcash on Mike's new contract?
I'd be willing to pour all 500v$ on Komi not reaching a 5,5 cap hit.
First off, Gainey has the philosophy of team first. If Komi asks for 6 mil or more, he's putting himself first than the team. No way Gainey will want to sign him then. Secondly, guys who have much more experience than him, are more consistent and have better offensive stats than him, like Markov and Hamrlik, don't get more than 5,5/5,75. Thirdly, Komi is no hot head, he's got his head on his shoulders and doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will sacrifice being in a city he loves with one of his best buddies for 1-2 mil more per season. The young players of this team have taken example on respected players in the lockeroom who have never gone for the big payout, players who have taken the hometown discount because the team was loyal to them and always there for them. This is the kind of team BG is building. A recent example of this is AKost. He could've asked for more, could've flirted with other teams, but didn't. The Habs are creating an atmosphere where players feel part of a family, and the Habs pay them good money and sign the ones they want to keep before they hit the market.
No matter if some players did sign big contracts on the open market, they changed teams, it is not the same situation, as seen with the Markov signing. It makes me laugh when I read people using this argument, as I can find many Dmen of Komi's caliber who are at 4 mil per season. It's also ridiculous to think he'll get 6 mil when players like Phaneuf only make a bit more than that, yet have much better overall game with offensive stats. Like McPhee said, the market seems based on offensive stats more than anything else, some people here should realize this.
I'm tired of this alarmist stance. The same was said when AKost was about to sign. Even tho he was a RFA, some people thought he would sign close to 5 mil per season, which was totally bogus.
My personal opinion is that Komi will get around 4,5 mil, might be a bit more.
The Habs will probably try to sign him for 5 years, as BG said he works in 3 years term, and by looking at contracts already signed, the next 3 year span is starting this season as many contracts will be up in 3 seasons from the start of this one. So that would put Komi's new contract two years removed from the start of the next 3 year span, so a 5 year contract would be the most logical venue if BG follows this logic he already mentioned. He may also be tempted to extend it a bit more.
thats not his agent probleme if markov gets 5,750 he'll get what stupid market pays theres allways somone willing to pay more than you ever dream of.would you pay 4.1 million for a guy like steit no hamerlik got 5.5 ,so a guy like komi starting is best years ahead of him he,ll get much more
That's IF he hits the market.
Examples of players who didn't go to the market and signed before July 1st for less than what the market could've fetched them, ARE EXTREMELY numerous.
Especially for a team like the Habs who prop their players to be loyal and have a team first mentality.
My only issue is....Hamrlik being better than Komisarek...yeah right! Hamrlik went into the open market at the right time, that explains his 5.5 million contract...I'd take Komisarek over Hamrlik each and every time.
My only issue is....Hamrlik being better than Komisarek...yeah right! Hamrlik went into the open market at the right time, that explains his 5.5 million contract...I'd take Komisarek over Hamrlik each and every time.
When Hammer signed, he finished 13th of all Dmen for +/-, was top 30 of all Dmen for points, had years of experience in the league, had shown the ropes to a young guy like Phaneuf (and many on the Flames board say that Hammer was always saving Phaneuf's bossom defensively), he was in the top 50 for bodychecks among all Dmen. Oh, and he signed on the open market, whereas if Komi signs with Montreal, it won't be on the open market. Also, when Hammer went down this season, the Habs had their worst sequence of the season. When Komi went down, the Habs only lost one game in the span of 5-8 games.
All these factors, Komi doesn't match. What Komi has more than Hammer (when Hammer signed) is only better blocked shots and better bodychecks. Everything else, Hammer had better.
After all that, I still take Komisarek...your illustrating stats from two years ago (Hammer's stats)...you list top 50 for body checks as a plus for Hamrlik but dismiss it in the last paragraph in Komisarek's case...you also say saving Phaneuf's butt but fail to mention Komisarek doing the same for Markov. Komisarek slightly edged Hamrlik in the Plus/Minus all the while, Komisarek was used extensively to shut down the opposing teams top line.
Edit: Top 50 of ALL Dman for laying body checks....where was Komisarek in ALL of the NHL?
Edit to the Edit: Komisarek is achieving these at a far much younger age than Hamrlik, 26 years old as oppose to being a cagey vet of 33. yes, I'll take Komisarek.
Last edited by Arctic_Hab_Fan: 09-04-2008 at 10:55 AM.
When Hammer signed, he finished 13th of all Dmen for +/-, was top 30 of all Dmen for points, had years of experience in the league, had shown the ropes to a young guy like Phaneuf (and many on the Flames board say that Hammer was always saving Phaneuf's bossom defensively), he was in the top 50 for bodychecks among all Dmen. Oh, and he signed on the open market, whereas if Komi signs with Montreal, it won't be on the open market. Also, when Hammer went down this season, the Habs had their worst sequence of the season. When Komi went down, the Habs only lost one game in the span of 5-8 games.
All these factors, Komi doesn't match. What Komi has more than Hammer (when Hammer signed) is only better blocked shots and better bodychecks. Everything else, Hammer had better.
When Hamrlik signed, Regehr's pairing had been doing the heavy lifting in Calgary. Hamrlik had been babysitting Phaneuf against 2nd tier opponents. You also have to factor in age - Hamrlik was 33 when he signed, Komisarek will be 27.
I will absolutely take you up on your bet, Komi will make at least 5.5 mil per.
After all that, I still take Komisarek...your illustrating stats from two years ago (Hammer's stats)...you list top 50 for body checks as a plus for Hamrlik but dismiss it in the last paragraph in Komisarek's case...you also say saving Phaneuf's butt but fail to mention Komisarek doing the same for Markov. Komisarek slightly edged Hamrlik in the Plus/Minus all the while, Komisarek was used extensively to shut down the opposing teams top line.
Edit: Top 50 of ALL Dman for laying body checks....where was Komisarek in ALL of the NHL?
Are you being purposefully obstute??
You were talking of when Hamrlik signed, I compared the stats when HE signed, not this year's stats. I explained the reasons he got 5,5 mil. Even if it's two years ago, Komi isn't close to be top 15 of all dmen for +/-. Komi isn't close to be top30 dmen for points (no matter if Hammer isn't anymore this year or next, we are comparing the season before they sign). Funny how you say I don't mention Komi's bodychecks, yet I said : "What Komi has more than Hammer (when Hammer signed) is only better blocked shots and better bodychecks". And the part about Komi saving Markov's butt, is ludicrous as I've seen Markov do the same with Komi, and also is besides the point, as I was talking about saving a rookie's play, whereas Markov and Komi are used to helping each other out, and Markov was always known as the better defensive player of the two. Now that Komi has grown, because of Markov, Markov can take more offensive chances. That is so not the same situation as with Phaneuf and Hamrlik.
The point is not which one you'll take. Stick to the point at hand, we are discussing why Hamrlik got that salary to why Komi will get is. You're really good to divert a discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin
When Hamrlik signed, Regehr's pairing had been doing the heavy lifting in Calgary. Hamrlik had been babysitting Phaneuf against 2nd tier opponents. You also have to factor in age - Hamrlik was 33 when he signed, Komisarek will be 27.
I will absolutely take you up on your bet, Komi will make at least 5.5 mil per.
May I remind you that half the season is played away from home and consequently, the line matchups aren't what you said for the away games?? Also, Hamrlik had the most icetime on the Flames squad for that season, much more than Regher. He was the most used Dman, yet you think he never went up against the best lines. Please find a less ridiculous argument.
To take the bet, we would first have to find out if we can actually bet Vcash.
May I remind you that half the season is played away from home and consequently, the line matchups aren't what you said for the away games?? Also, Hamrlik had the most icetime on the Flames squad for that season, much more than Regher. He was the most used Dman, yet you think he never went up against the best lines. Please find a less ridiculous argument.
To take the bet, we would first have to find out if we can actually bet Vcash.
I didn't say Hamrlik never went up against the best lines. I'm saying that Komisarek 07/08 and Regehr 06/07 went up against top lines consistently, and Hamrlik generally went up against 2nd tier opposition in both those seasons.
You can't dismiss quality of competition as an argument. Just because line matching isn't perfect, doesn't make it a non-factor.
Because of the reminder, show us stats where Hamrlik played against the top line at opposing arenas.
Ha! Do the same for Regher!!!
Just the fact that Hammer had the most icetime among Calgary Dmen (in fact he was top 10 among all NHL dmen that season) demonstrates that he did go up against top lines consistently.
Funny how none of you two don't dare mention who seems to be the most important to the Habs last season. Hammer gets injured, the team craps out. Komi gets injured, we only lose one game out of the last 8 games. That's the intangible that Hammer brings which Komi doesn't, experience and leadership.
The most funny part of all this is that I,m a huge Komi fan. I'm jsut not blinded as you seem to be
My only issue is....Hamrlik being better than Komisarek...yeah right! Hamrlik went into the open market at the right time, that explains his 5.5 million contract...I'd take Komisarek over Hamrlik each and every time.
I was discussing who is better...you being purposely Ob......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Ha! Do the same for Regher!!!
Just the fact that Hammer had the most icetime among Calgary Dmen (in fact he was top 10 among all NHL dmen that season) demonstrates that he did go up against top lines consistently.
Funny how none of you two don't dare mention who seems to be the most important to the Habs last season. Hammer gets injured, the team craps out. Komi gets injured, we only lose one game out of the last 8 games. That's the intangible that Hammer brings which Komi doesn't, experience and leadership.
When did I mention Regher?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Ha! Do the same for Regher!!!
Just the fact that Hammer had the most icetime among Calgary Dmen (in fact he was top 10 among all NHL dmen that season) demonstrates that he did go up against top lines consistently.
Funny how none of you two don't dare mention who seems to be the most important to the Habs last season. Hammer gets injured, the team craps out. Komi gets injured, we only lose one game out of the last 8 games. That's the intangible that Hammer brings which Komi doesn't, experience and leadership.
The most funny part of all this is that I,m a huge Komi fan. I'm jsut not blinded as you seem to be
why do you kids always say....Funny how...Funny Part??? I ain't blinded, I much prefer what Komisarek brings to this team than Hamrlik.
Edit: And yes, I'd take Komisarek at 5.5 Max but Gainey is smarter than that...
Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-04-2008 at 12:21 PM.
I was discussing who is better...you being purposely Ob......
No, you went on to how Hamrlik went on the market. It was quite evident that I was responding to that.
But yeah.... keep pretending I was responding to the comparison of the two in terms of talent and where they are at, rather than the basis for their salaries, on a thread discussing Komi's future salary, nice try, but no cigar.
I did mention why Hamrlik got his salary...he entered the market at the right time, before his mentoring of Phaneuf...Hammer was never seen as a defensively responsible D.
This is what I mean by being obstute. You ask me to show when he played against top lines when away, yet I mentioned this when comparing Regher and Hammer at Calgary, with Roulin.
You seem to have a hard time following a discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic_Hab_Fan
why do you kids always say....Funny how...Funny Part??? I ain't blinded, I much prefer what Komisarek brings to this team than Hamrlik.
Edit: And yes, I'd take Komisarek at 5.5 Max but Gainey is smarter than that...
Kid? I ain't no Kid, but by the way you keep diverting, I would say you definetly have the mentality of one.
I did watch over 70 games of the habs season, lots of away games too...I've seen komisarek play against the Top line way more often than did Hamrlik...Did you?
Your insistence of away games holds no water, I watched the games.
I did mention why Hamrlik got his salary...he entered the market at the right time, before his mentoring of Phaneuf...Hammer was seen looked at a defensively responsible D.
He didn't enter the market BEFORE his mentoring of Phaneuf. He entered the market after he was one of the best dmen in the league, among the top 15 defensively and among the top 30 offensively. Your argument is ridiculous and is worth zilch as we could say the same of Komi as he will go on the market just as he's having the best seasons of his career. There is just no point in this.
But there is a point at comparing WHERE Hamrlik was statistically WHEN he signed his new contract and where Komi IS statitstically when he signs his new contract. And from those numbers, Komi is not close to getting 5,5. His offensive contribution is too low to get anywhere close to 6 mil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic_Hab_Fan
I did watch over 70 games of the habs season, lots of away games too...I've seen komisarek play against the Top line way more often than did Hamrlik...Did you?
Your insistence of away games holds no water, I watched the games.
That's exactly what I mean by being obstute.
Are your intellectual capacities too low to understand that this debate started with Roulin about who played against the top lines in Calgary, between Hamrlik and Regher and it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAST SEASON, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPARING KOMI AND HAMMER'S contributions to the Habs in the last season. It HAS TO DO WITH COMPARING HAMRLIK'S LAST SEASON OF PLAY BEFORE HE SIGNED HIS CONTRACT, WITH KOMI'S LAST SEASON OF PLAY AS THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE USING AS AS REFERENCE TO EsTIMATE THE SALARY HE WILL HAVE.
Now if you are unable to understand this, and keep thinking that this about something it is not... talk to someone else.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-04-2008 at 12:41 PM.
But we're seeing a different market now...a lot of the teams want a Stud on D and will over pay for it...Komisarek is a Stud much more than Mezsaros (however you spell his name)...is that the starting point for his agent? Probably.
But we're seeing a different market now...a lot of the teams want a Stud on D and will over pay for it...Komisarek is a Stud much more than Mezsaros (however you spell his name)...is that the starting point for his agent? Probably.
No, the starting point for his agent is asking Komi if he wants to stay in Montreal, because his agent knows who BG is, he knows him very well, and knows Gainey will sign him before July 1st, outside the market.
The arguments you are using are the same that were used to say Markov would sign for 7-8 mil outside of Montreal. It's not jsut a question of assessing his talent compared to what is being payed. That's oversimplistic and dumb. There are way more factors involved in this, and from those factors, my assesment is that Komi won't try to blow the bank just for 1-2 mil more on the open market than to keep playing with the Habs.
