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08/09 Philadelphia Flyers Prospect Discussion Thread

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Old
01-04-2009, 04:53 PM
  #751
CanuckistanFlyerfan
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah sorry about that man.

I don't want to speak too much ill of my fellow Flyer fans, but considering how important Hockey East is in New England, some people at this point are just talking out of their ass.

I mean, I've gone to a Hockey East school for a few years. I know several hockey players. Hell, I've seen a current WJC player buying condoms with a couple girls waiting outside and joked with him about it.

Now I have all these people running up completely discounting JVR's season at UNH (which has been phenomenal) and talking out of their ass about how Americans view the tournament. Furthermore, it seems that most of these people happen to be Canadian.

I've already said that there is a culture difference here in how Americans and Canadians view the tournament. Some Canadians, such as Opus, have been kind enough to acknowledge this. Others just continue to repeat the same thing.

I'm sure that JVR would be happy if the Americans won the tournament. However, his absolute primary goal is Hockey East. UNH lost 5-4 in 3OT to BC last year in the Hockey East tournament (which was a fairly surprising result, JVR had 2 assists in that game though) and then they lost in the NCAAs to Notre Dame which probably left an extremely bitter taste in JVR's mouth considering that UNH had been top-5 most of the year and had an extremely talented roster. Rubbing salt in the wound would be the fact that BC also went on to win the NCAAs.

However painful an international tournament loss can be, it doesn't compare to winning a conference in regular season play over 30 odd games and then getting your heart broken in a 3OT loss to one of your greatest rivals.

So for anyone to say that Hockey East isn't popular (it has a rabid following in New England) is just making stuff up and to say it doesn't matter to JVR is even stupider.

But go ahead, persist in the stupidity and lobby Holmgren to trade him for a bag of pucks.

Not sure who you're talking about, but if it's me you're full of it. Never said a bad thing about JVRs season at UNH. I've never seen him play a game there.



The only comments about Hockey East were me saying it isn't HUGE like you make it out to be, and another guy who put the sarcasm icon following his statement.

You're the guy saying nobody outside of Canada cares about the WJs, and I disagree. All I said about JVR is he didn't stand out in the biggest games he played in in the WJs, and he hasn't. You said it was because he didn't care (like you know what he thinks) I've never said to get rid of him. What I did say was if he doesn't care about the WJs (which is where YOU were going) then I have a concern about his attitude.

So climb down off your "poor ol' me and JVR" BS trip, and come on back to reality. And reread what you've been saying.

PS- and what does buying condoms have to do with any of this.


Last edited by CanuckistanFlyerfan: 01-04-2009 at 05:27 PM.
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Old
01-04-2009, 05:06 PM
  #752
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He has tonight to redeem himself. Hopefully he'll step it up against the Czech Republic.

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01-04-2009, 09:21 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Type all the novels you want about the glory of Hockey East, it doesn't excuse a top draft pick of half-assing an international hockey tournament. It's fine if it's not as important to him, but he should probably still be doing everything he can to win every game he's in (unless it's exhibition). Winning gold would've been a big accomplishment and step forward in his development. There's clearly motivation to trying and winning that tournament.
A step forward in his development? So by that rationale, a 4th line forward on a tournament winning team has developed more than a 1st line forward on the team that finished 2nd.

JVR has played 20 or so outstanding games for UNH this year. Now you guys are wetting yourselves over 1 bad game at a WJC (which you still can't understand doesn't mean anything).

Sorry, but I'm done with the thread. I'm sure people will be crying about JVR's or Carter's "lack of passion" as they're lifting the Cup over their heads.

EDIT: And it looks like he scored the OT game winner against the Czechs. I could care less, but you guys just run wild with that if you want.

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01-04-2009, 09:37 PM
  #754
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As one of the Canadians on this board let me state that I haven't said squat about his career in college and have never seen him play outside of the WJHC. I don't know a thing about how he plays outside of that. Many here thought the WJHC would be "his tourney" but since it wasn't, some of those people are discounting the tourney.

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Old
01-04-2009, 09:50 PM
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckistanFlyerfan View Post
Not sure who you're talking about, but if it's me you're full of it. Never said a bad thing about JVRs season at UNH. I've never seen him play a game there.



The only comments about Hockey East were me saying it isn't HUGE like you make it out to be, and another guy who put the sarcasm icon following his statement.

You're the guy saying nobody outside of Canada cares about the WJs, and I disagree. All I said about JVR is he didn't stand out in the biggest games he played in in the WJs, and he hasn't. You said it was because he didn't care (like you know what he thinks) I've never said to get rid of him. What I did say was if he doesn't care about the WJs (which is where YOU were going) then I have a concern about his attitude.

So climb down off your "poor ol' me and JVR" BS trip, and come on back to reality. And reread what you've been saying.

PS- and what does buying condoms have to do with any of this.
Please find me an article in one of the major papers in the USA longer than 5 sentences on the WJC. Just one will do.

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01-04-2009, 09:54 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Please find me an article in one of the major papers in the USA longer than 5 sentences on the WJC. Just one will do.
What does that prove?

Lets say, for a moment, that the argument about the attention to the WJCs is true. What does that say about JVR as a competitor that he can lace up the skates and play against some of the best players in his age group and simply not get up for the games?

The media attention is irrelevant. The media attention is the circus that goes around and beyond the lines on the field. If you're a competitor and playing a sport you should be out there leaving it all on the field in every single game you play.

If JVR mailed it in, or didn't get up for the games because they're "not a big deal in the US," that is probably a rather large reason for concern about his competitive side.

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01-04-2009, 09:54 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
He has tonight to redeem himself. Hopefully he'll step it up against the Czech Republic.
JVR scored a nice goal from what I read on the WJC - 20 thread.

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01-04-2009, 09:57 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What does that prove?

Lets say, for a moment, that the argument about the attention to the WJCs is true. What does that say about JVR as a competitor that he can lace up the skates and play against some of the best players in his age group and simply not get up for the games?

The media attention is irrelevant. The media attention is the circus that goes around and beyond the lines on the field. If you're a competitor and playing a sport you should be out there leaving it all on the field in every single game you play.

If JVR mailed it in, or didn't get up for the games because they're "not a big deal in the US," that is probably a rather large reason for concern about his competitive side.
What would it say to Detroit if a veteran player has a bad preseason after he's produced before in meaningful games?

Like I said, these games are as meaningless as preseason games to Americans. Tells you nothing, IMO.

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01-04-2009, 10:03 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
What would it say to Detroit if a veteran player has a bad preseason after he's produced before in meaningful games?

Like I said, these games are as meaningless as preseason games to Americans. Tells you nothing, IMO.
Comparing a competitive tournament, that he is not required to go to, to preseason games is just ridiculous. Preseason games are scrimmages in the course of preparing for games that have meaning. This is a competitive tournament that he signed up for and if you're suggesting that he couldn't get up to play those games...that's a BAD sign about him as a competitor.

There are plenty of sports, from the olympics to pick-up games where players give it their all....because they're competitive and it's not about some perception away from the lines, it's about the desire to win.

This line of reasoning is idiotic because it ignores the basic assumption your making: it's perfectly fine that JVR might not care about playing his hardest in this tournament. It's not. That's a bad, bad thing.

What made Michael Jordan, and so many other elite players so good wasn't their natural talents...it was that they ****ing hated to lose. At anything. Bob Gibson would throw at guys in scrimmages.

I don't want a player who has the ability to be on the ice and think to himself, "You know...this game doesn't matter that much. Whatever."

And it should be noted...I'm not down on JVR at all. It's a small sample and it goes quick. But suggesting he didn't care and wasn't trying all that hard as a DEFENSE of him struggling is asinine.

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01-04-2009, 10:07 PM
  #760
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I have to say, I enjoy that the 2 guys who actually live in New England, follow Hockey East, and in my case know HE players, are getting completely ignored in the thread.

That's true Philly mentality, follow your opinion, don't let the facts get in the way!

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01-04-2009, 10:08 PM
  #761
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I've already said it's not a defense of him. It's just that his performance in this tourney has about as much value to knowing how good he'll be as a preseason game. It's just not a meaningful competition IMO.

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01-04-2009, 10:11 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I've already said it's not a defense of him. It's just that his performance in this tourney has about as much value to knowing how good he'll be as a preseason game. It's just not a meaningful competition IMO.
Whether the tournament itself is meaningful is relatively irrelevant. It's about the competitive attitude of the player.

If you can line up on a competitive playing field and not summon the will to compete to your best abilities...you're never going to be elite at your sport.

In fact, it's why Jagr was so often disappointing in the NHL. His willingness as his career went on to give it his all every night declined...whether that was injuries, money, or whatever...who knows. In Washington, it was supposedly because he was upset about his g/f.

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Old
01-04-2009, 10:20 PM
  #763
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I've already said it's not a defense of him. It's just that his performance in this tourney has about as much value to knowing how good he'll be as a preseason game. It's just not a meaningful competition IMO.
Per TSN
Quote:
TORONTO - Canada's world junior hockey victory over the Americans on New Year's Eve was the most watched preliminary-round game ever on TSN.

The 7-4 win attracted an average of 1.67 million viewers, surpassing the previous high of 1.41 million for another Canada-U.S. matchup at the 2006 tournament.

Wednesday's game was also the most-watched program on Canadian television that night.

Audience levels peaked at two million viewers from 9:30 p.m. to 10 p.m. ET.

The highest-rated world junior game ever on TSN was the 2003 gold-medal final between Canada and Russia. It drew 3.45 million viewers, the biggest audience in network history.
I cant speak for Americans but here in Canada the WJC is huge. I believe that everyone wants to knock off Canada. I have to believe that there is alot of National Pride of every Country participating to see how their programs match up when it comes to this Tourney. I remember Malkin crying on the side boards when Russia lost to Canada in the gold medal game. He obviously cared.

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Old
01-04-2009, 10:26 PM
  #764
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JVR now can go back to the one line team, known as UNH, facing some of the best college talent in the US and still average well over a point a game.

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Old
01-04-2009, 10:28 PM
  #765
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I cant speak for Americans but here in Canada the WJC is huge. I believe that everyone wants to knock off Canada. I have to believe that there is alot of National Pride of every Country participating to see how their programs match up when it comes to this Tourney.
One would think, but it is certainly valid to question the level of commitment to the tournament from other nations by comparison to Canada. However, it strikes me as shockingly bizarre to suggest two things: 1) the players on the ice don't care that much and thus we can't really judge them because of that; and 2) that it's perfectly fine that they adopt this attitude and put it into practice while wearing the uniform and taking a shift.

While I wouldn't find it odd at all that 20 y/o kids would grumble about running off to a tournament over the holidays in advance, I would find it disturbing if they failed to honestly compete once the puck drops. As someone who played a fair amount of competitive sports growing up, I can honestly say there was never a moment while on the field for any sport that I didn't give it everything I had. Nor do I view that as bragging, I think that's the common trend among the vast majority of athletes who experience any success in athletics. If you enjoy playing a sport, you should enjoy winning. If you enjoy winning, you should be trying your hardest to win every time you have the opportunity to win.

At their most basic level...before you get to all the BS of media coverage, money, etc. Sports are about competing and winning. You have to ask yourself if you really want a player on your team long-term who is capable of turning off his competitive juices in a game that might mean a bit less. It's only October...who cares? we can make it up in November. It's only December... It's only Game 1.

I didn't watch a single game of the WJC this year, but I would be shocked if JVR was not trying his hardest out there. It doesn't always work out, though. Viewing any small sample of games and drawing real conclusions is silly.

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01-04-2009, 11:26 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
A step forward in his development? So by that rationale, a 4th line forward on a tournament winning team has developed more than a 1st line forward on the team that finished 2nd.

JVR has played 20 or so outstanding games for UNH this year. Now you guys are wetting yourselves over 1 bad game at a WJC (which you still can't understand doesn't mean anything).

Sorry, but I'm done with the thread. I'm sure people will be crying about JVR's or Carter's "lack of passion" as they're lifting the Cup over their heads.

EDIT: And it looks like he scored the OT game winner against the Czechs. I could care less, but you guys just run wild with that if you want.
So you don't think it's important to win (or at least want to and try to) at the highest levels possible? How many current Flyers have gone through the WJC and won gold? A lot. It excites us for the future.

Wanting to win is something I want in a player. Always. If JVR didn't want to win this tournament, there's something wrong with his competitive instinct.

Maybe it doesn't mean anything in the end, but right now, it concerns me. Sorry for having that opinion.

And this has nothing to do with whether the American public or the American players give a damn about the WJC. A hockey player who intends on turning pro should show a desire to win and work his ass off every night.

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01-04-2009, 11:29 PM
  #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
So you don't think it's important to win (or at least want to and try to) at the highest levels possible? How many current Flyers have gone through the WJC and won gold? A lot. It excites us for the future.

Wanting to win is something I want in a player. Always. If JVR didn't want to win this tournament, there's something wrong with his competitive instinct.

Maybe it doesn't mean anything in the end, but right now, it concerns me. Sorry for having that opinion.

And this has nothing to do with whether the American public or the American players give a damn about the WJC. A hockey player who intends on turning pro should show a desire to win and work his ass off every night.
Yes, JVR consistently dominates players 2-3 years older than him, but there's something wrong with his competitive instinct.

Yep.

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01-04-2009, 11:31 PM
  #768
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Yes, JVR consistently dominates players 2-3 years older than him, but there's something wrong with his competitive instinct.

Yep.
That's what you're suggesting if you truly believe these HE players didn't give it their all in this tournament because it wasn't that important to them.

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01-04-2009, 11:32 PM
  #769
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I didn't watch a single game of the WJC this year, but I would be shocked if JVR was not trying his hardest out there. It doesn't always work out, though. Viewing any small sample of games and drawing real conclusions is silly.
I think he does care and that he was trying. And if he wasn't, I don't think anyone should think that is acceptable under any circumstances, I wouldn't want a guy like that on my team. This tournament isn't what I am used to seeing from him though but I don't think it was from not trying.

His coach did him zero favors playing him in the role he did and would've been better off moving one of him or Schroeder to another line. Too many playmakers and guys who need the puck on one line. On the PP JVR is usually playing set up man, in this tournament it was almost always Schroeder. JVR can certainly score goals but I am used to them coming when he creates them himself (like he did on the 3rd in the US game and what I am guessing he did on the OT winner today) not when he waits for someone else to feed him the puck while he sets up shop in front of the net. I felt like I was watching a different player sometimes.

Why would you take a guy who dominates when he has the puck and put him in a role where he isn't going to have it primarily? Makes no sense. He scored the 2nd most points on the team (only 1 less than everyone's favorite darling Schroeder) for all his invisibility. I just don't think he was used in a way he could have made the most impact or control play like I have seen him do.

There were times when he had the puck and he made things happen - Schroeder, Wilson & the D men missed their fair share of chances he set up for them. I am betting no one would be crying about him being invisible if they were buried. The first two minutes of the video in the WJC thread is a perfect demonstration of chances that didn't get buried, both Schroeder's & his own (of which he missed some, I am not saying he is off the hook for anything).

But I am growing sick & tired of people saying he sucks and is going to be bust. He doesn't suck, he has a ton of skill and I think there's a great deal to be excited about. I won't be surprised if he does some time in the AHL next year just like Giroux did, especially because I don't think he is as polished an all around player as Giroux is. But there is definitely potential for him to be really great scorer and playmaker for the Flyers, especially with some of the finishers they have. I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing what happens when he gets to play with guys that can finish.

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01-04-2009, 11:42 PM
  #770
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Quote:
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That's what you're suggesting if you truly believe these HE players didn't give it their all in this tournament because it wasn't that important to them.
Welcome to the life of teenagers...

JVR needs to mature, no doubt, I'm personally not going to bust his balls for it.

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01-04-2009, 11:56 PM
  #771
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Welcome to the life of teenagers...

JVR needs to mature, no doubt, I'm personally not going to bust his balls for it.
If anything...it should mean a whole hell of a lot more to those guys than it does to professional athletes with wives, children, mortgages, etc.

If you can't summon the competitive will to try your hardest at a game when you're 19, you're sure as hell going to have problems doing so when you've got X million dollars in guaranteed money coming your way and not a worry in the world.

When you mature...you realize that winning a hockey game, or any game, doesn't really matter all that much. Wanting to win so much it hurts is a trait of immaturity...it's the trait of playing a kids game with a kids heart. If you don't think JVR has that bug up his ass now...you're saying you don't think he'll ever have that bug up his ass.

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01-05-2009, 12:00 AM
  #772
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Ok, this is getting out of hand. Guy didn't have the best couple of games. Let's move on

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01-05-2009, 12:13 AM
  #773
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When you mature...you realize that winning a hockey game, or any game, doesn't really matter all that much. Wanting to win so much it hurts is a trait of immaturity...it's the trait of playing a kids game with a kids heart. If you don't think JVR has that bug up his ass now...you're saying you don't think he'll ever have that bug up his ass.
That statement is unbelievably false and exactly the opposite of what I've said the entire time.

Learn how to read or don't even bother to argue.

Ignorant fans on here are just unbelievable, dude dominates the entire season, takes a couple games off, and a legion of Flyers fans are writing his epitaph. I was right about Carter, I'll be right about JVR as well.

EDIT: I should add that all of this criticism comes from guys who freely admit to not watching Hockey East the entire season. That's like watching Antero Niittymaki's games against the Thrashers and suddenly declaring him a Vezina candidate.

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01-05-2009, 12:24 AM
  #774
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That statement is unbelievably false and exactly the opposite of what I've said the entire time.

Learn how to read or don't even bother to argue.

Ignorant fans on here are just unbelievable, dude dominates the entire season, takes a couple games off, and a legion of Flyers fans are writing his epitaph. I was right about Carter, I'll be right about JVR as well.

EDIT: I should add that all of this criticism comes from guys who freely admit to not watching Hockey East the entire season. That's like watching Antero Niittymaki's games against the Thrashers and suddenly declaring him a Vezina candidate.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument is that HE matters a ton to him and the other players in it. That it matters MORE to them, thus they weren't all that into playing in the WJC and therefore didn't necessarily give it their best effort when they were out there on the ice?

Cuz, here's the thing...I just don't buy that he took the games off. If that IS the case, then that's a really big blemish on his character as an elite athlete. Elite athletes, the best of the best...the guys you want to use high draft picks on...they want to win every game of checkers they play against their little sister.

And, you should learn to read. You'll not find a single criticism from me with regard to JVRs play in this tournament. Not one. What you will find is me critiquing the line of reasoning you are using to defend him. Your line of defense is specious at best, and, frankly, a simply negative statement about the makeup of JVR as an athlete. You'll be hard pressed to find an athlete who will willingly adopt the mantle of "guy that takes off games because they don't matter that much to him."

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01-05-2009, 12:32 AM
  #775
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Ok, this is getting out of hand. Guy didn't have the best couple of games. Let's move on
Fine by me. I just think it's wrong to say he doesn't and/or shouldn't care about the tournament and that's why he didn't play his best.

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