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"Gainey gets too much praise"- Paul Bourgoin vs "praise is well deserved"-Alex Taddeo

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Old
09-08-2008, 09:23 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
Hindsight is great.

Honestly though I also think we might have been better off with Kopitar. It's not like we were in trouble in net. And we would have our big center with elite skills.
The day we start seeing our depth at center being as questionable as our depth on D once was, we'll start picking up those guys. Thing is we will need a little bit of luck since we shouldn't be picking that low for a while...

But like you said hindsight is great. Still you need some hindsight as a org. and I believe that's what they did with Price even with Theo on board.

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09-08-2008, 09:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post

Who is this Paul Bourgoin idiot who obviously knows nothing about hockey or the Montreal Canadiens!!!!

Gainey doesn't get the respect he deserves.

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09-08-2008, 09:30 AM
  #53
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I realize this is just some "fan" writing in to the Gazette and no different from the people that post here or on RDS Talkback or who call in to the Team 990, etc...but how stupid do you have to be to say "oh we could've picked players X, Y and Z but we didn't", as if drafting was an exact science?

Gee we (and every other team in the league) passed on Pavel Datsyuk at least four times, what does that say?

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09-08-2008, 09:32 AM
  #54
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terrible thread

why is this reply the clown who wrote in, being brought here for us to debate?

in before the lock LOL

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09-08-2008, 09:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I realize this is just some "fan" writing in to the Gazette and no different from the people that post here or on RDS Talkback or who call in to the Team 990, etc...but how stupid do you have to be to say "oh we could've picked players X, Y and Z but we didn't", as if drafting was an exact science?

Gee we (and every other team in the league) passed on Pavel Datsyuk at least four times, what does that say?
Still.....if a guy is praised for his great picks, shouldn't he be criticize for his not-so good ones? Drafting is not an exact science? Most definately, probably more true after the 3rd round. Still, the majority of guys picked in the 1st and 2nd are playing in the NHL so this "science" is somewhat more exact than people would like it to be.

As far as teams that passed over Datsyuk, like teams that passed over Robitaille or Sergei Kostitsyn, the only thing that we should do is praising the teams that did picked them and not bashing the teams that didn't. Clearly those guys had issues that didn't make them 1st rounder and teams that picked them took a chance to see them available in the later rounds and then took a chance by picking them despite their flaws. That's where it began to be a crapshoot. But 1st rounders? Sure there are exceptions, but exceptions don't make a rule. And picking Brulé instead of Kopitar probably because you saw one guy more than the other prooves to be a major setback to an organization something that can't happen too much. Like it happened to us during the majority of the 90's, reason why we're just beginning to have a decent team. I do have that tendancy to think that we were not just unlucky with our 1st rounders....we were pretty bad at judging talent as well and at developing them and to me you can't put that on the "unexact" science.

Having said all of that......we've never picked that many great talent since Gainey is on board. Despite some picks that I or we didn't agree with as a fan without seeing those guys played as much as they did, as a whole, they did a great job, and probably one of the best. Clearly Bourgoin doesn't know much and judging Gainey's work by 2 or 3 picks is stupid to say the least. He probably won't have the intelligence to write back as soon as he sees MaxPac and say how great Gainey is for "picking" him.....

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09-08-2008, 09:58 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
hm.. Price has yet to prove he's a phenom goalie. Yes he was good last season but it was still far from being even considered for the vezina, let alone being a phenom. Don't forget that, in the playoffs, he didn't play at the level he's able to. Kopitar, him, has already proved he's one of the best forward in the NHL.
What??? He's very good but he's not even close to "one of the best"...

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Don't get me started on Getzlaf.... Much tougher to find a great centerman than a winger as we can see.

As much as we've concentrated on d-men lately, we need to do the same on centermen in the upcoming drafts.
With the strong drafts coming up, we'll hopefully be able to steal a centreman later in the 1st ala Getzlaf.

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09-08-2008, 10:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
With the strong drafts coming up, we'll hopefully be able to steal a centreman later in the 1st ala Getzlaf.
That's what I hope for especially this upcoming year as far as the 1st rounder is concerned and throughout the upcoming drafts as well. Maybe not as much as the D's but I hope a good portion of it will be.

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09-08-2008, 10:02 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Still.....if a guy is praised for his great picks, shouldn't he be criticize for his not-so good ones? Drafting is not an exact science? Most definately, probably more true after the 3rd round. Still, the majority of guys picked in the 1st and 2nd are playing in the NHL so this "science" is somewhat more exact than people would like it to be.
He's not even criticizing the bad ones though, that's the thing. Like somebody said, no we didn't get Getzlaf but we did get Kostitsyn, who's still pretty damn good. We didn't get Kopitar but we did get Price, etc. These are not bad picks, though they may not be the greatest (only time will tell).

In fact I always use the 2003 draft as a prime example of this "revisionist" mentality people have. Yes, we could have had Ryan Getzlaf at #10. But we could also have had Hugh Jessimen, who went two picks later. Things could be better, but they could be a whole lot worse too.

The bottom line is that 30 teams out of 30 could have had better drafts using hindsight, so there's no point in constantly revisiting drafts and saying "oh we could've had so and so", especially when your team's scouting staff routinely makes solid, NHL-capable picks. If we were a team constantly winding up with the Jessimans or the Chistovs or the Svitovs of the draft then yeah it's a valid complaint...but we're not, we're better than that.

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09-08-2008, 10:45 AM
  #59
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Gainey's biggest mistakes were not drafting (his draft record is good) but signings.

Souray: Gainey offered Souray the same contract that Hamrlik got, fortunately for us, Souray either 1) Believed his own hype and thought he was going to get Chara money, or 2) Didn't like the habs' locker room and just wanted to get out (seen a lot of speculation that there was tension between him, Kovalev and Koivu creating a leadership triumverate that didn't mesh well). So Souray said no, Gainey immediately offered it to Hamrlik who jumped on it. Souray waited like 2 months (no 7 mill offers I guess) before taking essentially the same contract with Edmonton.

Briere: Too much money and long term risk on a guy who just put up one season of top shelf numbers, the rest of his career being more in consistently in Koivu's strata of production than Thorton or Lecavlier's. Fortunately Briere had his own hesitations of becoming the Habs' great French-Canadian superstar and turned down Gainey, putting the Habs in a healthier long term position IMO.

Some will put Samsonov up there as well but it was a well calculated move to boost the Habs' offensive potency (before guys like Plekanic and the Kostitsyn bros had broken out), guy coming off a good year, with loads of skills and ability, signed to low risk 2 year contract. In retrospect the guy was a bust and a head case, but it was a well calculated signing with minimized downside.

So my only knock on Gainey were those two contract offers, but fortunately the other parties bailed him out by not accepting them. Other then that he's done a supurb job, and the club has been rebuilt into a well managed organization, full of smart hockey people, and looks to be a perennial powerhouse like his former Dallas team.

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09-08-2008, 10:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Briere: Too much money and long term risk on a guy who just put up one season of top shelf numbers, the rest of his career being more in consistently in Koivu's strata of production than Thorton or Lecavlier's. Fortunately Briere had his own hesitations of becoming the Habs' great French-Canadian superstar and turned down Gainey, putting the Habs in a healthier long term position IMO.
That's not entirely accurate. You could make a case and say Briere is one of the players who has benefitted the most from the lockout. His 60-point years came at the height of the clutch-and-grab era. In three seasons following the lockout he put up 58 in 48 (99 point pace I think), 95 in 81 and 72 in 79. He's still overpaid (like all UFAs practically), but I wouldn't have too upset if he signed the deal we offered him.

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09-08-2008, 11:06 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
What??? He's very good but he's not even close to "one of the best"...



With the strong drafts coming up, we'll hopefully be able to steal a centreman later in the 1st ala Getzlaf.
Although hes not a center, I think Pacioretti may be that Getzlaf-esque steal

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09-08-2008, 11:06 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
That's not entirely accurate. You could make a case and say Briere is one of the players who has benefitted the most from the lockout. His 60-point years came at the height of the clutch-and-grab era. In three seasons following the lockout he put up 58 in 48 (99 point pace I think), 95 in 81 and 72 in 79. He's still overpaid (like all UFAs practically), but I wouldn't have too upset if he signed the deal we offered him.
I'll concede that point, but I'd also like to point out that he also played for a Buffalo team that was STACKED with talent, and rolled 3 high flying attack lines which also gave him a big production boost. In Philly he went to another talented team, (but not quite as good as those Sabres), but a rawer and less well coached one too, and he was also the main guy.

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09-08-2008, 11:09 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
I'll concede that point, but I'd also like to point out that he also played for a Buffalo team that was STACKED with talent, and rolled 3 high flying attack lines which also gave him a big production boost. In Philly he went to another talented team, (but not quite as good as those Sabres), but a rawer and less well coached one too, and he was also the main guy.
True, but you also have to remember that the main reason he went to Philly was to play with Gagne, and Gagne was hurt for most of the year. If Briere played with Gagne for a full season, it's quite possible he'd be right back in the 90's. I guess we'll see.

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09-08-2008, 12:30 PM
  #64
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Hmm le's see... NYR had good star quality players for a while... yet they weren't the best team at the time. I'M guessing this dude has no idea how teamplay, and cohesion between players is vital for a team to play very well. Sure we were 1st in the east and lost in second round, but that season was our best in many of the previous ones.
He's a ****** who wans to jack himself off to a ''star'' player all season long, and **** on the rest of the organisation when it goes bad... He wants the crappy good lookin car, not the mediocre looking one but with better engine and overall performances that is fun drive.


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09-08-2008, 12:40 PM
  #65
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Hmm le's see... NYR had ood star quality players for a while... yet they weren't the best team at the time. I'M guessing this dude has no idea how teamplay, and cohesion between players is vital for a team o play very well. Sure we were 1st in the east and lost in second round, but that season was our best in many of the previous ones.
He's a ****** who wans to jack himself off to a ''star'' player all season long, and **** on he rest of the organisation when it goes bad... He wants the crappy good lookin car, not the mediocre lookin one but wih better engine and overall performances that is fun drive.
I think you're bank on with that assessment

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09-08-2008, 01:15 PM
  #66
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You dont just pick players, you pick the best players who will fit together. Kyle Chipchura is going to be integral this season. But guess what? He isnt a star quality player... the small details are what make the difference.
Chipchura will not be important to the team. hell, he may not even be on the team.

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09-08-2008, 01:17 PM
  #67
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Chipchura will not be important to the team. hell, he may not even be on the team.
That'S your opinion, I think he has potential. Might not be totally ready mentally. Time will tell I guess, we need to give him some ice time and see what that brings us.

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09-08-2008, 01:53 PM
  #68
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Hmm le's see... NYR had good star quality players for a while... yet they weren't the best team at the time. I'M guessing this dude has no idea how teamplay, and cohesion between players is vital for a team to play very well. Sure we were 1st in the east and lost in second round, but that season was our best in many of the previous ones.
He's a ****** who wans to jack himself off to a ''star'' player all season long, and **** on the rest of the organisation when it goes bad... He wants the crappy good lookin car, not the mediocre looking one but with better engine and overall performances that is fun drive.
Pretty much. A lot of fans are retarded like that, usually people who've never actually played and think it's like baseball or basketball where you can just airdrop a big producer onto the team and get an instant boost.

The Avs didn't win either when they stacked an already good team with Karya and Selanne.

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09-08-2008, 02:15 PM
  #69
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Almost two decades of losing? Cup in 1993 and First in Conference last season.

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09-08-2008, 06:02 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
http://<br /> http://www.canada.com...e-cba15a4825b5"Gainey gets too much praise"- Paul Bourgoin
''Paul Bourgoin get not enough attention''- Chfan4ever

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09-08-2008, 06:15 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I realize this is just some "fan" writing in to the Gazette and no different from the people that post here or on RDS Talkback or who call in to the Team 990, etc...but how stupid do you have to be to say "oh we could've picked players X, Y and Z but we didn't", as if drafting was an exact science?

Gee we (and every other team in the league) passed on Pavel Datsyuk at least four times, what does that say?
geez ! another victim brainwashed by the Gazette propaganda !


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09-08-2008, 06:33 PM
  #72
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No, your standards are different depending on who we're talking about... Price being a Habs, he's no phenom of course...

examples of phenom :
Crosby 1st season : 102 pts, 2nd season 120
Malkin 1st season : 85 pts, 2nd season 106 pts
Phaneuf 1st season : 49 points and good enough to play on the 1st pair, 2nd 50, 3rd 60

so yeah, Kopitar's a good player, a very good one in fact... but a phenom ? we'll consider it when he'll break the 80 pts mark...
hm... ? I never said Kopitar was a phenom.

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09-08-2008, 07:30 PM
  #73
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geez ! another victim brainwashed by the Gazette propaganda !

Isn't "Bourgoin" a French name?


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Old
09-09-2008, 04:28 AM
  #74
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hm... ? I never said Kopitar was a phenom.
I know. Just wonder why you mention Price not being one though...

Price is not a phenom, Kopitar is not a phenom, neither were great (good yes, very good yes, but GREAT ? nope) so far, one (according to some) failed in the playoff, the other failed to bring his team into the post-season...

so, what's all the talk about Kopitar again ?

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09-09-2008, 05:09 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I realize this is just some "fan" writing in to the Gazette and no different from the people that post here or on RDS Talkback or who call in to the Team 990, etc...but how stupid do you have to be to say "oh we could've picked players X, Y and Z but we didn't", as if drafting was an exact science?

Gee we (and every other team in the league) passed on Pavel Datsyuk at least four times, what does that say?
The Habs passed on Sergei Kostitsyn 7 times.

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