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What does a good camp do?

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Old
09-09-2008, 08:34 AM
  #1
Fletch
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What does a good camp do?

thought I'd change things up a bit here. For years I've been hearing things like "if he has a good camp..." or "if he has a bad camp...". As well as notions of if this kid has a good camp he should make the team, etc.

I often think that a camp showing can be deceptive (see Esa Tikkanen III) and think there aer other factors that determine a players spot on a team day one, and those other factors are pre-conceived notions (and in this case, I think a pre-conceived notion is the right thing).

In some instances (or postings) I feel that a UFA signing, like Shanny last year, could've lost his spot on the team if a kid outplays him in camp. To me, it seems silly that a vet can lose a spot on a team based on a couple/few preseason games against, very often, AHLers and other kids, as well as a couple weeks of practice. While you want vets to play hard on every shift and there isn't an excuse, in preseason, it is a time for them to stretch their legs, get their timing back, and get back into things. If they have a few bad games in preseason, it's often forgiven (but the leash in the regular season shortens).

And for the kids...one thing to remember is to note the level of competition they are up against if they're playing well in preseason. Was it the other teams' "A" starters, or was it early in the preseason and the kids, already having played a couple games in Travers, are a bit more up to speed than other players on the ice.

I'd love for guys like Anisimov and others to make this team out of camp. But this is where the pre-conceived notions come into play, as well as other factors (like an ability to send certain players to HFD). Where do the Rangers stand in regards to Anisimov's development? Do they just want to get a look at him in preseason and they're already set to send him down, or are they really looking at him to compete for a spot? Can a good camp really win him a spot, or is it just a showing so they know better if he'll be ready sometime in the season? And if they're looking for him to compete for a spot, would they immediately switch Drury to wing to get him some preseason there if he's a guy that's going to be moved? Seems to make sense, but that's a big guess beginning the season and could be a risky proposition.

I guess I'm trying to see what expectations are from all regarding camp and whether posters believe realistically that some kids can win spots out of camp this season on a roster that seems to have more than 12 forwards who can play at the NHL level, without including any of the kids. This, of course, is barring any trade.

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09-09-2008, 09:07 AM
  #2
HockeyBasedNYC
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This should start a good discussion Fletch.

Well thought out post, as always.

I think that for over 80% of the positions on most NHL teams, the players are already penciled into those spots. The other 20% or so isn't as cut and dry - give or take depending if its a veteran or young laden team...

Very rarely does a guy make the team out of camp because he's outplayed someone else, especially a vet. I think the idea of camp is skewed and is more of an experience builder than anything else at the NHL level. At the college, junior, semi-pro levels and below, camps are truer representation of what a "tryout" should be. You play well, you make the team - barring the occasional political crap or preconceived shoe-in.

I think for the Rangers this year, theres a ton of competition with almost 70 players going for 23 spots. But like you said, its not as cut and dry as that. You can immediately rattle off about 15-17 "locks" for positions. Its the other 5-8 spots that are somewhat up in the air... But I agree. I'd love to see Anisimov and Korpokoski make this team. But the Rangers might already have a plan for them, considering they are 2nd line type guys and there are realistically no 2nd line spots open unless one is created through injury or otherwise. They both could be used on the 3rd line, but they are better served getting more minutes in Hartford and building there.

Dubinsky earned himself an NHL jersey last camp IMO, and thats one example of a guy who was on the cusp, expected to be on the bubble and made the most of his camp. A guy like Callahan got his spot almost by default because they needed a skater there - and it showed early in the season because he got sent back down. I think thats why they went out and signed Voros and Rissmiller this year. To not only give themselves more options and depth, but really get the competition level up in camp. Whether that materializes itself or hamstrings them financially down the road remains to be seen. But it seems to me now, heading into camp that that was all by design. Maybe they felt last year that there was enough legit competition for spots, and too many preconceptions.

IMO these are the guys who are legitimately trying to earn a job in the NHL this camp and are not locks for a spot:

Voros
Rissmiller
Callahan
Anisimov
Korpokoski
Byers
Fritsche
Moore
Nedved
Orr
Sjostrom
Prucha

Potter
Sangs (but again, preconceived hell play in the AHL)
Sauer (health)
Pock
Kondratiev

I didnt put Dubinsky or Dawes because i think theyve showed enough to stay and the spot is there for them. I didnt put Parenteau, Jessiman and Pyatt, because i think they just arent as well rounded enough to compete with the guys above for the spots available.

If you think i've misplaced anyone fire away...


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 09-09-2008 at 09:19 AM.
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09-09-2008, 09:21 AM
  #3
Loto68
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Some of those guys you listed would have to be waived to be sent down I think, and while I think some should be, Pru and Sjo should not get waived.

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09-09-2008, 09:21 AM
  #4
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Dubi did...

I do think the Rangers were in need of a centerman too, though, as we were pencliling in either Straka or Avery for the third line center position. Dubi had a good camp which was extremely aided by Traverse City since when he first suits up for the Rangers and scores a goal on Brodeur, everyone else on the ice is still in warm-ups and he's ready for the season. I think this year the gap is at second line right wing. There are options, like Cally, Sjostrom, and Fritsche (guys at the NHL level) and then there Korps and others who are a bit younger (and perhaps it's really a fight for third line for a guy like Korps if Cally can play that position). But again, going into preseason Renney needs to have an idea what he wants to see (a plan if you will) and he needs to start somewhere. I'm very anxious to see where that is.

I agree with your list - although think that while all of Prucha, Voros, Rissmiller, Sjostrom, Orr and Callahan aren't locks, probably at least four of them are locks to make the team, if that makes any sense, and perhaps we can't say which four at this point. We'll see...I still find it odd that they would sign guys to $1MM contracts just to tryout and hedge against guys like Korps, Moore and Byers not panning out.

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09-09-2008, 09:21 AM
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I think both Fritsche and Cally are both locks to play somewhere on this lineup whether 3rd or 4th line is a different question. Fritsche had a good season in CLB and we traded for him, I don't see him not getting any time. Cally upon coming back from the AHL (b/c of rushing back from injury) was among our best pkers, forecheckers and energy players. he also put up a good amount of pts the last two months of the season, and he had a real good playoff run. 4 pts in 10 games from a rookie is good, plus he was one of our best forecheckers, towards the top in checks, played great defense, and PK.

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09-09-2008, 09:32 AM
  #6
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I think the coaches pre-conceived notions come from a host of factors we never get to see. What did the prospect or player do in the off-season? How did they mature over the past season? Did they adhere to the coaches and trainers advice? When and what condition did they arrive at the training center? Realistically, where will this player develop the best?

I think one thing we assume is that playing time is better than sitting time, but I think Renney et al feel there is a real benefit to young players traveling and practicing with the big club, even if they aren't getting a ton of ice time. But, it's got to be the right player who can do that. They felt that Dawes could handle the sitting role, and seems like Moore can't (my assumption).

I believe that the greatest impact a "good camp" can have on a player that the staff didn't already believe might make the team, is move him up on the radar screen.

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09-09-2008, 09:37 AM
  #7
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Look, you can have a tremendous camp on paper; just like there always is a Stu Barnes up there in the scoring race after 10 games of the NHL season have been played.

But a good coach on a NHL team will look for very diffrent things then whats done on paper, or big plays on the ice. A coach looks at certain parameters for diffrent positions. Like if a center can take the puck up ice against a collected D. If a D can handle gooing up against NHL forwards in 1 on 1 situations. If a forward can handle a defensive assignments. Certain things that coach wants his players at a certain position to be able to do. Another example is if he tells a player to take care of a small detail; for example "Artem, the next time you trail a forward on the backcheck, and his linemates trys to take the puck over the blueline, give your guy a little push in the back so that he skates offside" -- and then study's if the forward can carry out orders like that. Stuff like that can be fundamental. Like imagine if you are a coach and you tells a player to do a couple of things; and he completely fails to take directives like that and execute them, that will have a big impact no matter if the same players actually have done allot of good things that we fans can see. These things defenitly happend. Some guys defenitly got problems to "think" on the ice; or problems with dooing certain small things. Hockey got so many diffrent faces.

I often don't think many players who supposedly had great camps had great camps in Renney's eyes. There where allot of calls for Thomas Pck in the first camp after the lockout -- he made like 3 great passes and Renney was a idiot for not playing him instead of Rozsival. Today, like 3 years later, Pck have still not learned allot of fundamentals for a NHL D.

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09-09-2008, 10:30 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
IMO these are the guys who are legitimately trying to earn a job in the NHL this camp and are not locks for a spot:

Voros
Rissmiller
Callahan
Anisimov
Korpokoski
Byers
Fritsche
Moore
Nedved
Orr
Sjostrom
Prucha

Potter
Sangs (but again, preconceived hell play in the AHL)
Sauer (health)
Pock
Kondratiev

I didnt put Dubinsky or Dawes because i think theyve showed enough to stay and the spot is there for them. I didnt put Parenteau, Jessiman and Pyatt, because i think they just arent as well rounded enough to compete with the guys above for the spots available.

If you think i've misplaced anyone fire away...
This will be an unpopular view, but I don't think either Anisimov or Sanguinetti stand a chance of making the team out of camp. Sanguinetti struggled in his 11-game AHL tryout at the end of last season and has a ways to go before he's ready to face NHL competition. Anisimov, while he made steady progress throughout his first season, is going to be sent back to Hartford for at least the start of the year to work on his scoring touch and physical play. Renney's words about how he separated himself during the development camp seem to have gotten people's hopes up. But the reality is that he SHOULD have stood out from the competition in that camp. That he outplayed a bunch of kids with little or no professional experience doesn't mean he's ready to face NHL competition. Anisimov will have to go to Hartford and have a similar start to what Moore had last year or Callahan had the year before if he wants to see NHL ice this season.

IMHO, Parenteau has a better chance at making the team out of camp than Anisimov. And he's got virtually no chance of doing it.

On defense, Sauer won't even be on the ice in time for camp, so he's got no shot. Sanguinetti, as mentioned, is Hartford bound to prove he can handle competition at that level. I wouldn't discount either Fahey or Denisov as possible options for the 7th d-man position, though if I had to guess right now competition for the 7th spot will come down to Pock and Kondratiev, with Kondratiev probably having a slight edge if he can re-adjust to the smaller ice surface quickly. The team won't want to have Potter sitting in the press box watching when he could be continuing his development in Hartford. Pock's development has pretty much gone as far as its going to go, and his ability to play both defense and forward could be an asset for him -- provided he's willing to accept part time duty this time around.

Up front, Korpikoski, Byers and Moore are the only players I see with legit chances of winning a spot, but with the lineup already as crowded as it is, I don't give them much hope. Jessiman, like Anisimov, made nice progress last season, but he'll need to show a lot more consistency at the AHL level before anyone considers him for an NHL job. As for Pyatt... he needs to prove he can stick at the AHL level for a full season before he merits any consideration at the NHL level.

I didn't see Jamtin on the list, but I don't think he's a lock for an NHL spot either. Orr, IMHO, is a lock. Maybe not as a full-timer, but he's one of the better enforcers in the league, and the Rangers aren't going to just let him go, which is essentially what they'd be doing if they tried to pass him through waivers to send him down.

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09-09-2008, 10:43 AM
  #9
TomLaidlaw
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Drury
Gomez
Dubinsky
Betts
Naslund
Zherdev
Dawes
Prucha
Fritsche
Callahan
Voros
Orr
Rissmiller

= 13 Forwards

I just don't see alot of spots open for players like Korpedo, Byers etc. No matter how well they do in camp. Korpedo is playing behind the 8 ball because of his cap hit we would have to absorb if he made the team. Reminds me of the Montoya situation last season where his cap hit made it difficult for him to be Henriks backup no matter how well he played.

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09-09-2008, 11:03 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squishy View Post

Up front, Korpikoski, Byers and Moore are the only players I see with legit chances of winning a spot, but with the lineup already as crowded as it is, I don't give them much hope. Jessiman, like Anisimov, made nice progress last season, but he'll need to show a lot more consistency at the AHL level before anyone considers him for an NHL job.

Orr, IMHO, is a lock. Maybe not as a full-timer, but he's one of the better enforcers in the league, and the Rangers aren't going to just let him go, which is essentially what they'd be doing if they tried to pass him through waivers to send him down
.
Couldn't agree more Squishy.

In my opinion the Voros signing hurt Jessiman more than any other player in the organization. Simply because that was the role on the team Jessiman was trying to fill. Big physical player who can drop the gloves and get under the other teams skin. I just don't see where Hugh fits on this team as long as Voros is here.

In terms of Colton Orr. He is going to be on this team. He will also be in the lineup on most nights. I posted something a while back showing how many games Orr has played in since Todd Fedoruk ran all over the ice running everyone a year and a half ago. It was pretty much every regular season game that he was healthy. The Rangers organizational philosophy the past year is that they want a heavyweight/nuclear threat in their everday lineup. Combine that with the fact that Renney trusts Orr defensively and that Orr has improved as a skater each year, and he is going to have a spot on the 4th line most nights. Wheter you like Orr or not the fact is that no one can do what he does, as well as he does, in our entire organization and there aren't many guys in the league who can fight as well as Orr. Unless we have a change in philosophy get use to seeing #28 out there.

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09-09-2008, 11:05 AM
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NYR Sting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squishy View Post
This will be an unpopular view, but I don't think either Anisimov or Sanguinetti stand a chance of making the team out of camp. Sanguinetti struggled in his 11-game AHL tryout at the end of last season and has a ways to go before he's ready to face NHL competition. Anisimov, while he made steady progress throughout his first season, is going to be sent back to Hartford for at least the start of the year to work on his scoring touch and physical play. Renney's words about how he separated himself during the development camp seem to have gotten people's hopes up. But the reality is that he SHOULD have stood out from the competition in that camp. That he outplayed a bunch of kids with little or no professional experience doesn't mean he's ready to face NHL competition. Anisimov will have to go to Hartford and have a similar start to what Moore had last year or Callahan had the year before if he wants to see NHL ice this season.

IMHO, Parenteau has a better chance at making the team out of camp than Anisimov. And he's got virtually no chance of doing it.

On defense, Sauer won't even be on the ice in time for camp, so he's got no shot. Sanguinetti, as mentioned, is Hartford bound to prove he can handle competition at that level. I wouldn't discount either Fahey or Denisov as possible options for the 7th d-man position, though if I had to guess right now competition for the 7th spot will come down to Pock and Kondratiev, with Kondratiev probably having a slight edge if he can re-adjust to the smaller ice surface quickly. The team won't want to have Potter sitting in the press box watching when he could be continuing his development in Hartford. Pock's development has pretty much gone as far as its going to go, and his ability to play both defense and forward could be an asset for him -- provided he's willing to accept part time duty this time around.

Up front, Korpikoski, Byers and Moore are the only players I see with legit chances of winning a spot, but with the lineup already as crowded as it is, I don't give them much hope. Jessiman, like Anisimov, made nice progress last season, but he'll need to show a lot more consistency at the AHL level before anyone considers him for an NHL job. As for Pyatt... he needs to prove he can stick at the AHL level for a full season before he merits any consideration at the NHL level.

I didn't see Jamtin on the list, but I don't think he's a lock for an NHL spot either. Orr, IMHO, is a lock. Maybe not as a full-timer, but he's one of the better enforcers in the league, and the Rangers aren't going to just let him go, which is essentially what they'd be doing if they tried to pass him through waivers to send him down.
This is pretty much the way I see things happening here. I really don't think that Slats signed Voros or Rissmiller to have them not play, as much as someone may or may not like to hear that, but I don't think those guys are going to Hartford. Certainly not in the beginning, at least. I think they're pretty much penciled into the lineup.

Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Zherdev, Dawes, Dubinsky, Prucha, Callahan, Betts, Voros, Rissmiller, Fritsche, Orr...there are your 13 forwards and with Redden, Staal, Rozsival, Girardi, Mara and Kalinin, there are your six defenseman. I think those guys are pretty much all set unless a guy like Korpikoski or Moore or Byers has a really great showing in camp. Basically, I think only the 7th defenseman position is truly up for grabs, as squishy said, and I'm sure Pock is the front-runner, and if they brought in Kondratiev,
maybe him, too.

As usual, I think most people here are really overvaluing the team's prospects. I'd like to think Anisimov will become a good player, but from what I've seen, he's a ways away from NHL-ready. He's not big enough physically yet, that's for sure.

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09-09-2008, 11:18 AM
  #12
Fletch
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Squishy...

it may be an unpopular view, but it's realistic, especially as it relates to Sanguinetti and perhaps Anisimov. I'd really like to see what Potter doees as I've grown to like him and wonder if he can develop into a third pair defenseman. His frame worries me a bit.

Even guys like Byers and Korpedo may get slighted because they can be sent down early in the season.

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09-09-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
Drury
Gomez
Dubinsky
Betts
Naslund
Zherdev
Dawes
Prucha
Fritsche
Callahan
Voros
Orr
Rissmiller

= 13 Forwards

I just don't see alot of spots open for players like Korpedo, Byers etc. No matter how well they do in camp. Korpedo is playing behind the 8 ball because of his cap hit we would have to absorb if he made the team. Reminds me of the Montoya situation last season where his cap hit made it difficult for him to be Henriks backup no matter how well he played.

Dont forget Shanahan (apparently)

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09-09-2008, 12:20 PM
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Dont forget Shanahan (apparently)
Don't even get me started on that Inferno.



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09-09-2008, 12:23 PM
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This is pretty much the way I see things happening here. I really don't think that Slats signed Voros or Rissmiller to have them not play, as much as someone may or may not like to hear that, but I don't think those guys are going to Hartford. Certainly not in the beginning, at least. I think they're pretty much penciled into the lineup.

Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Zherdev, Dawes, Dubinsky, Prucha, Callahan, Betts, Voros, Rissmiller, Fritsche, Orr...there are your 13 forwards and with Redden, Staal, Rozsival, Girardi, Mara and Kalinin, there are your six defenseman. I think those guys are pretty much all set unless a guy like Korpikoski or Moore or Byers has a really great showing in camp. Basically, I think only the 7th defenseman position is truly up for grabs, as squishy said, and I'm sure Pock is the front-runner, and if they brought in Kondratiev,
maybe him, too.

As usual, I think most people here are really overvaluing the team's prospects. I'd like to think Anisimov will become a good player, but from what I've seen, he's a ways away from NHL-ready. He's not big enough physically yet, that's for sure.
Bravo to all this. With the exception of the Voros and Rismiller signings. I think those were done so that if the kids weren't ready they would have a backup plan.

With the glut of players we have now, there are going to be more trades for prospects and/or draft picks later on.

The camp should also be a way of knowing which prospects to call up in case of injury. And provide them with feedback on what they need to work on to get better.

The kids are just that, good prospects. If a few of them show that they are ready, Sather can just dump some of the guys he signed, or trade them for prospects or picks.

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