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Washington/Toronto Proposal.

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Old
02-24-2004, 07:14 AM
  #51
Charge_Seven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
you are correct, sir. they are decent. by keeping stajan, steen, and cola( maybe even bell) toronto are holding back the star potential and trading players who's potential is middle of the lineup. by trading an elite defenseman the capitals are looking to get the foundation of their rebuild. if the foundation is star quality, the team can be a winner win it developes. if the foundation is merely decent, then average is the best they can hope for.

i just don't see it. this is only the 2nd elite defenseman to come available at the deadline in the last 10 years. it is a rare occurance.

so...here we are. leafs fans won't pay for gonchar with top prospects, caps fans won't take the "decent" prospects. lets see what the teams end up with...eh?
I'm hoping NJ ends up with him, and that they pay top prospects, and a star player. .
For NJ, I'd give Parise, Hale, and BRODEUR!!! (don't worry everyone...it's a joke...)

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02-24-2004, 09:06 AM
  #52
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OK...so like I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTOM
Yeah it did acctually Wesley was Solid in Toronto, Housely wasn't and Injuries sucked, we played a tough 7 game series against the equally tough flyers and lost, Philly was so tired out Ottawa practicly danced right by them in the 2nd round.

The Playoffs are Tricky did anyone expect Anaheim and Minny to be in the western finals? did anyone expect them to beat the Avs and Wings in the 1st rounds? or the stars and Nucks in the 2nd? despite inferior teams on Paper?

like I said Gonchar would be the best help, but at that price it's not worth it down the road. so I'll save the Money on that super rod and that brand name lure and stick with the old gal and the worms and try to land myself a nice sized trout worth a Photo and a trip to the grill not the Monster Trout with a photo and a date with the Taxodermy.
If it's your goal to win the Cup then step up, if it's your goal to tire out the Flyers, well congrats....but I think you've got your eye on the wrong target.

The only prize worth anything is 1st place....last time I looked, 2nd doesn't get your name on the Cup.

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02-24-2004, 09:34 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame
The award Bell got is something I didn't know, I'll give him credit for that. But there's nothing special about Kondratiev making the NHL at age 20 - many other juniors beat him to the punch. White, well he brings nothing special to the table, so I don't see why Washington would be motivated to make this trade.

Bottom line: I just don't see why the Caps would trade their best defender, possibly one of the top five offensive defenseman in the league for a package that DOESN'T include a top, bluechip prospect. Colicacovo is that prospect. Antropov can even the deal, and even then I'm not sure that's enough. Gonchar is something special, so you'll have to give something that Washington actually wants to get him. Remember, the ball is in Washington's court.

If all of a sudden, Lou Lamarello changes his mind and is willing to include Parise, as requested (or at least reportedly requested) then perhaps you are right that the ball is in Washington's court, however, this is unlikely so if the Devils won't give up there top prospect what motivates Toronto to do so?

I think more and more that all these names are simply being floated by Washington Management to Toronto Media, .... of course .....the suckers that they are, to try to inflate a circus of Public opinion that I sincerely hope JFJ resists.

As far as the ball in Washington's court, they either have to come to a long term deal with Gonchar or watch him win an arbitration hearing with all of the negativity that surrounds arbitration. If they are willing to do that then they can keep him and deal with the $7M (+/-) award. Then they can try to move him.

I think that the ball is truely in the court of the suitors, not Washington, although McPhee is a bright guy, and he seems to be playing this one pretty well.

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Old
02-24-2004, 10:43 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
If it's your goal to win the Cup then step up, if it's your goal to tire out the Flyers, well congrats....but I think you've got your eye on the wrong target.

The only prize worth anything is 1st place....last time I looked, 2nd doesn't get your name on the Cup.
Why, oh why, do people think that Gonchar can be the missing piece to a Cup?

Don't get me wrong, he is a great player and would help out our powerplay quite a bit. But we all know that he isn't the Leafs' most pressing need. They need a Witt type of player more than they need Gonchar right now.

Leaf fans don't want to give up the Stajans, Colaiacovos, Steens unless we are filling our biggest holes. If you're talking a Witt/Gonchar pacakge, then yes, that I think significantly puts us in a better position to go deep in the Cup run. However, Gonchar alone doesn't put us over the top, so there is no point in mortgaging the future for him alone.

As you said, 2nd place means nothing. Unfortunately, Gonchar alone won't determine if we go any higher than that.

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02-24-2004, 10:53 AM
  #55
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If that was the case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17
Why, oh why, do people think that Gonchar can be the missing piece to a Cup?

Don't get me wrong, he is a great player and would help out our powerplay quite a bit. But we all know that he isn't the Leafs' most pressing need. They need a Witt type of player more than they need Gonchar right now.

Leaf fans don't want to give up the Stajans, Colaiacovos, Steens unless we are filling our biggest holes. If you're talking a Witt/Gonchar pacakge, then yes, that I think significantly puts us in a better position to go deep in the Cup run. However, Gonchar alone doesn't put us over the top, so there is no point in mortgaging the future for him alone.

As you said, 2nd place means nothing. Unfortunately, Gonchar alone won't determine if we go any higher than that.
Why didn't you pick up Boughner? Obviously someone in the "know" in the Leaf organEYEzation wasn't all that keen on a crease clearing dman. Otherwise Bobby B could have been had for cheap. The fact is, you make moves to improve, and win Cups like the Avalanche, or you sit by and either patch with Wesleys and Gilmours, and go no where. Sometimes these moves work, sometimes they don't. Not trying, or trying to patch with over the hill players, does nothing but make a good PR case for management.

You guys are so close...I can't believe the rabid TO fans are not willing to do ANYTHING to win a Cup. I guess all the years of disappointment have really set in and you all like it now. Your team is aging badly, and you have a chance (maybe the best chance since the early 90's) to win. Whatever happened to win at all costs? Where's the heart? Where's your desire to win now, versus playing it safe, and making the playoffs for the next 10 seasons and not ever winning the Cup? Isn't that the goal?

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Old
02-24-2004, 11:13 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
Why didn't you pick up Boughner? Obviously someone in the "know" in the Leaf organEYEzation wasn't all that keen on a crease clearing dman. Otherwise Bobby B could have been had for cheap. The fact is, you make moves to improve, and win Cups like the Avalanche, or you sit by and either patch with Wesleys and Gilmours, and go no where. Sometimes these moves work, sometimes they don't. Not trying, or trying to patch with over the hill players, does nothing but make a good PR case for management.

You guys are so close...I can't believe the rabid TO fans are not willing to do ANYTHING to win a Cup. I guess all the years of disappointment have really set in and you all like it now. Your team is aging badly, and you have a chance (maybe the best chance since the early 90's) to win. Whatever happened to win at all costs? Where's the heart? Where's your desire to win now, versus playing it safe, and making the playoffs for the next 10 seasons and not ever winning the Cup? Isn't that the goal?
Like I said, give us Witt and Gonchar, and our good prospects will go the other way.

Gonchar ALONE does not get us the Cup, and acquiring him would not be an example of "win at all costs". Boughner is not the only guy out there, and I'm still pretty sure JFJ is going to land a stay-at-home guy.

The Leafs have an aging lineup, and for the first time in decades, have some very good prospects in their system. There is no Rob Blake available at the deadline this year. Overpaying for a guy like Gonchar who won't get you over the hump makes no sense. We are better off going for the "patches" as you call them, and keeping our prospects if the end result is that we are no closer to a Cup.

Not jumping head-first into an overpayment for Gonchar isn't an indication of not having "desire", or settling with mediocrity. I repeat.....Gonchar does not put this team over the top. Put Rob Blake on the market, and we throw whatever it takes to get him, and try to "win at all costs".

Anyway, haven't the Rangers employed a "win at all costs" philosophy?

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Old
02-24-2004, 11:17 AM
  #57
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How about we trade George McPhee to Toronto, for a back of pucks.

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Old
02-24-2004, 11:19 AM
  #58
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sigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17
Like I said, give us Witt and Gonchar, and our good prospects will go the other way.

Gonchar ALONE does not get us the Cup, and acquiring him would not be an example of "win at all costs". Boughner is not the only guy out there, and I'm still pretty sure JFJ is going to land a stay-at-home guy.

The Leafs have an aging lineup, and for the first time in decades, have some very good prospects in their system. There is no Rob Blake available at the deadline this year. Overpaying for a guy like Gonchar who won't get you over the hump makes no sense. We are better off going for the "patches" as you call them, and keeping our prospects if the end result is that we are no closer to a Cup.

Not jumping head-first into an overpayment for Gonchar isn't an indication of not having "desire", or settling with mediocrity. I repeat.....Gonchar does not put this team over the top. Put Rob Blake on the market, and we throw whatever it takes to get him, and try to "win at all costs".

Anyway, haven't the Rangers employed a "win at all costs" philosophy?
Like I said before....if you don't want to win the Cup, don't make trades like Colorado does almost every year, to give itself the best chance at the cup, just sit back and accept that Ottawa will go to the finals in your place. If you're fine with being an average playoff team great, if you want to win, it's called going for the brass ring. It takes risk, not idle hand.

Bringing the Rangers into this is ********. They aren't "win at all costs", becuase everyone knows they are nowhere near winning. They are the Yankees of the NHL. They don't groom their own talent, they scavenge it from other teams that can't afford them any more.

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Old
02-24-2004, 11:37 AM
  #59
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Colorado can make those moves because they have had a great scouting/drafting/development history, while the Leafs haven't.

Colorado had the horses in the stable to land a Rob Blake a couple years ago. Now with him on the blue-line, they don't need to add any more elite players and can just go the "patching" route.

The Leafs have only recently started to develop players in their system, and if we get rid of them, we'll be back at square one.

And if getting Gonchar brings us back to square one, then there's no point in making the deal. He doesn't plug your biggest holes, but he creates an enormous one in your system.

If Ottawa goes to the finals, good for them. They have hung on to their young players, and been able to steal guys like Spezza and Chara from a team that was willing to overpay.

Your last comment is kind of ironic. What you criticize the Yankees for is what the Leafs are trying to avoid. We are actually trying to groom our own talent for once and let them come up through OUR system, rather than scavenging teams for talent that they can't afford to keep. That is exactly what this Gonchar deal is about.

Anyway, we have a fundamental disagreement, and thats OK. I totatlly hear what you are saying about having to go for the gusto and throwing our egss in one basket for a shot. All I am trying to say is that Gonchar is not that basket for us right now. I don't know if the basket that we need is even available, but it would be a huge mistake to overpay for a basket that probably won't help you fulfill the ultimate goal.

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Old
02-24-2004, 11:40 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
... accept that Ottawa will go to the finals in your place.
Not with Lalime in net they won't!!!

What I find so hilarious about this thread is that the Caps fans are really pushing to "sell" Gonchar, the Leafs fans aren't "buying" if they have to give up the "crown jewel" prospects, and then the Caps fans seem to be getting frustrated that the Leafs fans won't "buy".

I have stated for the past two weeks that unless McPhee drops his asking price, Gonchar will remain a Capital past the tread deadline. I don't see the Devils giving up Parise, and I don't see the Leafs giving up one of Stajan/Steen/Colaiacovo + Antropov + 1st. As stated above by other posters, Lou is too high on Parise and I think JFJ sees how much Toronto gave up to get Nolan (McCauley, Boyes, 1st 2003 --> a roster player, the Leafs top prospect at that time, and a 1st) last year and look where it got them.

I also think that too many fans are mistaking not making a trade for "not trying to improve". I think all contending teams try to make improvements before the playoffs, however, if the asking price is too high, you go with those who got you there.

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Old
02-24-2004, 05:06 PM
  #61
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You can bet if the Leafs land Gonchar...say so long to Cola unless McPhee has a brain cramp for that one second.

To get quality you have to give up quality.

If it costs the Leafs Cola and a 1st then I say hello Gonchar. You have to pay a price to win.

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02-24-2004, 05:20 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
Like I said before....if you don't want to win the Cup, don't make trades like Colorado does almost every year, to give itself the best chance at the cup, just sit back and accept that Ottawa will go to the finals in your place. If you're fine with being an average playoff team great, if you want to win, it's called going for the brass ring. It takes risk, not idle hand.
That's a big oversimplification. Colorado makes deals at the deadline every single year, and they've made the finals a few times but they've also missed out just as many times. Philadelphia is a big deal maker but they haven't been to the finals in a while.

I don't remember New Jersey making any big deadline deals last year and they won the Cup. What did Carolina do the year they won the East?

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02-24-2004, 08:06 PM
  #63
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Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlood17
Your last comment is kind of ironic. What you criticize the Yankees for is what the Leafs are trying to avoid. We are actually trying to groom our own talent for once and let them come up through OUR system, rather than scavenging teams for talent that they can't afford to keep. That is exactly what this Gonchar deal is about.
It seems all Leafs fans are pretty pessimistic. It's like you don't want to accept that you have one of the better teams, and are afraid to go for it. You snooze you lose. I hope these prospects can step in fast, because you've only got a few years at most with the likes of Sundin, Mogilny, Roberts, etc...

I'm a little confused though...how is trading for one great player, the same thing as the Yankees? Ahh...never mind...

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02-24-2004, 08:08 PM
  #64
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um yeah

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
That's a big oversimplification. Colorado makes deals at the deadline every single year, and they've made the finals a few times but they've also missed out just as many times. Philadelphia is a big deal maker but they haven't been to the finals in a while.

I don't remember New Jersey making any big deadline deals last year and they won the Cup. What did Carolina do the year they won the East?
And it's paid off with a few Cups...I'd say 2 successes and even 5 times the failures would be worth it. They're right there pretty much every year aren't they? Don't get me started on the Flyers...making deals is one thing...Bobby Clarke is in a world of his own.

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02-24-2004, 10:07 PM
  #65
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um, yeah II

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
And it's paid off with a few Cups...I'd say 2 successes and even 5 times the failures would be worth it. They're right there pretty much every year aren't they? Don't get me started on the Flyers...making deals is one thing...Bobby Clarke is in a world of his own.
But that's the point. It's not a question of "you have to make a deal if you want to win" which is what you seemed to be implying. Flyers make lots of deals and don't win. New Jersey makes very few deals and still finds ways to win championships.

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02-24-2004, 10:22 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
But that's the point. It's not a question of "you have to make a deal if you want to win" which is what you seemed to be implying. Flyers make lots of deals and don't win. New Jersey makes very few deals and still finds ways to win championships.
well that is because they are BETTER than us, they have a better goalie, better defense, and harder working smarter forwards...

toronto is a team that will have to make that deal IMO

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02-24-2004, 11:29 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
...I don't remember New Jersey making any big deadline deals last year and they won the Cup...
You don't consider the acquisitions of Marshall, Rheaume and Smehlik big deals?
}:-)>

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02-25-2004, 06:47 AM
  #68
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I would be fine if we kept Gonchar. As much as some posters like to "bash" him (board vernacular), he's not having a bad year. Not a good one, but not bad either.

Almost 50 points already with 22 games left. He's on pace for almost 70! Head and shoulders above any other d-man.

Leads the league in minutes played. That's like having an innings eating starting pitcher in baseball that always wins 18+ games. Very big deal.

His plus/minus has actually improved, as has the team, even while trading away stars. He was a -25, and is now -19. If he can keep up his play, he might get back into the -mid teens, and considering his amt of playing time, this stat is a bit misleading.

Add to the fact that Gonchar's bad play coincided with the teams horrible, horrible start, and I think it's more an aberration than the norm. Who on the Caps had a good first 40 games, other than Lang???

Teams should pay a BLUE chip prospect, at least one, or we keep Gonchar.

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02-25-2004, 06:52 AM
  #69
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I'd be happy keeping Gonchar as well... but Leonsis is not going to pay him his arbitration-earned wage next season, and we all know it. Posturing aside, the Capitals are trading him. The only question is to whom.

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02-25-2004, 07:25 AM
  #70
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i think we will end up with him at the deadline imo

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02-25-2004, 07:36 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
I'd be happy keeping Gonchar as well... but Leonsis is not going to pay him his arbitration-earned wage next season, and we all know it. Posturing aside, the Capitals are trading him. The only question is to whom.
Maybe you're right. But nothing in sports is ever set in stone. Ted isn't afraid to pay salary as long as he's getting the correct return on his investment. $5m yearly for Gonchar is platable, and it's not as if Gonchar is over the hill like other Caps millionaires...he's right in his prime.

If I were the GM of the team, I wouldn't trade Gonchar unless the return was acceptable value-wise........end of story.

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02-25-2004, 08:21 AM
  #72
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ahh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon
Maybe you're right. But nothing in sports is ever set in stone. Ted isn't afraid to pay salary as long as he's getting the correct return on his investment. $5m yearly for Gonchar is platable, and it's not as if Gonchar is over the hill like other Caps millionaires...he's right in his prime.

If I were the GM of the team, I wouldn't trade Gonchar unless the return was acceptable value-wise........end of story.
Finally a voice of reason...in a sea of naysayers.

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02-25-2004, 08:24 AM
  #73
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It won't be hard to get value for Gonchar, though, as he is an elite defenseman, demand is high, and there are reportedly somewhere between six and eight interested teams. He'll be traded, and for good young players in return. Only the destination is in any doubt whatsoever.


Last edited by Drake1588: 02-25-2004 at 08:32 AM.
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02-25-2004, 09:02 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon
Maybe you're right. But nothing in sports is ever set in stone. Ted isn't afraid to pay salary as long as he's getting the correct return on his investment. $5m yearly for Gonchar is platable, and it's not as if Gonchar is over the hill like other Caps millionaires...he's right in his prime.

If I were the GM of the team, I wouldn't trade Gonchar unless the return was acceptable value-wise........end of story.
I think you are right in saying that $5M per for Gonchar is palatable. I think the only problem is that in arbitration this guy is going to win huge!!! In arbitration they seem to only consider the big positives. He plays a lot of minutes and scores tons of points. The question isn't whether $5M is palatable, but how about $7M to $8M? Is that palatable?

I know that is what I am worried about as a Leaf fan. We can afford it now, but what of the post armageddon days. No salary cap, then we could go for it. A salary cap and it is a bad idea. This I think is the delema that GM GM is facing, and probably why SG is still in Washington.

This is my thought on why it will go to the end or until NJ drops out.

It seems that Washington wants Parise. This is simply not going to happen. Parise is a top 5 prospect in all of hockey. If Lamerello trades him he is absolutely nuts. Now NJ doesn't have another prospect better than Colaiacovo, and Dallas I don't think has what Washington is looking for either (please correct me if I am wrong here Dallas fans). Now Boston (it is rumoured) is trying to offer an established player, believed by speculators to be Samsonov for Gonchar. If this is the case then the landscape could be changing. Boston isn't going to give up Samsonov plus a top prospect, at least not in my mind, so it could lower the prospect requirements actually. Toronto would then have to beat Boston's established player offer. I would offer as a starting point Kaberle, and then try to beat Boston's offer, and Washington would have to decide if they wanted forward or defense in return for their top defender.

With all of this, it's goin down to the 9th of March I think, and if I were JFJ, I would be working on a different scenario, because I think in the end, giving up a good young roster player, a top prospect and a 1st (the rumoured, reported request from Washington) is just way too much for a $7M arbitration winner that you may not be able to afford next time that hockey is played (due to salary cap issues). That means you are potentially paying for a 2 month aquisition! This has to be weighing heavily on all of the GM's minds, even McPhee's.

Boston's not going to do that IMO, NJ isn't going to pay him $7M post armageddon, so Toronto may be the last man standing when it finally goes to the 9th, and at that point the question is, does Washington want a $7M to $8M post armageddon Dman or do they get what they can for him?

If I'm JFJ I would wait it out and if I loose, fine, be working on a steady unspectacular Defender deal. In the end, that may be a better decision regardless.

just my $0.02 added to a very interesting drama.

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02-25-2004, 09:19 AM
  #75
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nice post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmer
I think you are right in saying that $5M per for Gonchar is palatable. I think the only problem is that in arbitration this guy is going to win huge!!! In arbitration they seem to only consider the big positives. He plays a lot of minutes and scores tons of points. The question isn't whether $5M is palatable, but how about $7M to $8M? Is that palatable?

I know that is what I am worried about as a Leaf fan. We can afford it now, but what of the post armageddon days. No salary cap, then we could go for it. A salary cap and it is a bad idea. This I think is the delema that GM GM is facing, and probably why SG is still in Washington.

This is my thought on why it will go to the end or until NJ drops out.

It seems that Washington wants Parise. This is simply not going to happen. Parise is a top 5 prospect in all of hockey. If Lamerello trades him he is absolutely nuts. Now NJ doesn't have another prospect better than Colaiacovo, and Dallas I don't think has what Washington is looking for either (please correct me if I am wrong here Dallas fans). Now Boston (it is rumoured) is trying to offer an established player, believed by speculators to be Samsonov for Gonchar. If this is the case then the landscape could be changing. Boston isn't going to give up Samsonov plus a top prospect, at least not in my mind, so it could lower the prospect requirements actually. Toronto would then have to beat Boston's established player offer. I would offer as a starting point Kaberle, and then try to beat Boston's offer, and Washington would have to decide if they wanted forward or defense in return for their top defender.

With all of this, it's goin down to the 9th of March I think, and if I were JFJ, I would be working on a different scenario, because I think in the end, giving up a good young roster player, a top prospect and a 1st (the rumoured, reported request from Washington) is just way too much for a $7M arbitration winner that you may not be able to afford next time that hockey is played (due to salary cap issues). That means you are potentially paying for a 2 month aquisition! This has to be weighing heavily on all of the GM's minds, even McPhee's.

Boston's not going to do that IMO, NJ isn't going to pay him $7M post armageddon, so Toronto may be the last man standing when it finally goes to the 9th, and at that point the question is, does Washington want a $7M to $8M post armageddon Dman or do they get what they can for him?

If I'm JFJ I would wait it out and if I loose, fine, be working on a steady unspectacular Defender deal. In the end, that may be a better decision regardless.

just my $0.02 added to a very interesting drama.
IMO Samsonov is too injury riddled to do it anywhere close to straight up. Caps need defensemen. Samsonov, and a Jillson, for Gonchar and a pick...maybe a 2nd rounder....I would consider.

As far as arbitration goes...with the lockout looming...I doubt there will be any arbitration hearings until the salary landscape is determined first. With that said...things could and likely would slant more towards the owners, not the players. No way Gonchar get $7-8 mill....I say more like $5-6.5 mill.

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