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CGY-BUF and CGY-FLA PROPOSALS

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Old
02-25-2004, 01:05 AM
  #26
Iggy-4-50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalek
Well CGY would unload same assets like in BUF deal so;
To FLA ; Gauthier ,Saprykin
To Calgary: Odelain, Jokinen
throught...
This is Sutter speaking:
Where do i frecking sign?

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Old
02-25-2004, 11:34 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billsandsabres
using +/- to assess a player's defensive abilities is a bad idea
mike modano is -17 right now

edit: oops, didn't see ruckus's reply
I am looking at their careers and not just 1 season and Sappy owns Pyatt in +/- over their careers.

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Old
02-25-2004, 11:39 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
This is Sutter speaking:
Where do i frecking sign?
Of course, when you figure it was proposed by a Flames fan. Too bad Dudley and the rest of the Florida organization would laugh at it.

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Old
02-25-2004, 12:18 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
I am looking at their careers and not just 1 season and Sappy owns Pyatt in +/- over their careers.
You're point being?

Here are some of LALA's thoughts on +/-. I quote them to save myself time, I agree with him.

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=27
http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=30
http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=32
http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=33

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Old
02-25-2004, 12:24 PM
  #30
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And I could care less what someone else thinks about +/-. The fact is when a player is constantly a minus player, no matter where he plays there is a trend and the trend is he is always on the ice for goals against. When this happens season after season, it doesn't bode well on that player.

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Old
02-25-2004, 12:32 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
And I could care less what someone else thinks about +/-. The fact is when a player is constantly a minus player, no matter where he plays there is a trend and the trend is he is always on the ice for goals against. When this happens season after season, it doesn't bode well on that player.
I have to agree with you on this one. I know a lot of people will think one way or the other, but I think +/- is a great way to evaluate a player.

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Old
02-25-2004, 12:43 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billsandsabres
using +/- to assess a player's defensive abilities is a bad idea
mike modano is -17 right now

edit: oops, didn't see ruckus's reply
Modano is very deserving of his -17, he has been utter crap until about two weeks ago. That's a pretty poor example.

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:39 PM
  #33
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luongofan
I have to agree with you on this one. I know a lot of people will think one way or the other, but I think +/- is a great way to evaluate a player.
Would you trade Waiver Wire Woolley (+19) for Sergei Gonchar (-18)? Ignore contracts, would you simply trade one player for the other for the rest of this season?

I guess not, or maybe you would argue that Detroit sucks and Washington doesn't, and that's the sole difference between their plus/minuses.

But then you'd have to consider that Woolley has a better plus / minus than Lidstrom.

You'd also have to consider that only two Capitals have worse plus / minuses than Gonchar.

How in the hell is +/- a great way to evaluate a player? What does it tell you? That Woolley is better than Lidstrom? That Gonchar is the second worst defenseman on Washington? That Rick Nash has been the worst Bluejacket? That Rico Fata has been the worst Pen? That Kovalchuk is the worst Thrasher. They all have the worst +/- on their respective teams.

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:41 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luongofan
I have to agree with you on this one. I know a lot of people will think one way or the other, but I think +/- is a great way to evaluate a player.
Why? Does +/- tell you about how a player is willing to go into the boards and win a battle, or how his positioning is or how many turnovers he commits? Does it have any kind of responsibility factored into it? If Pyatt has taken his man out and say Tallinder gets blown by and the Sabres scored on, why does that make Pyatt a bad defensive player? In fact, he's a better defender than PatrickFlames thinks he is but you really have to resort to good old observation to figure that out.

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:43 PM
  #35
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
And I could care less what someone else thinks about +/-. The fact is when a player is constantly a minus player, no matter where he plays there is a trend and the trend is he is always on the ice for goals against. When this happens season after season, it doesn't bode well on that player.
Kovalchuk does suck, doesn't he?

I will trade you

Andy Delmore (+3)

for

Rhett Warrener (-1)

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:47 PM
  #36
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruckus007
Why? Does +/- tell you about how a player is willing to go into the boards and win a battle, or how his positioning is or how many turnovers he commits? Does it have any kind of responsibility factored into it? If Pyatt has taken his man out and say Tallinder gets blown by and the Sabres scored on, why does that make Pyatt a bad defensive player? In fact, he's a better defender than PatrickFlames thinks he is but you really have to resort to good old observation to figure that out.
It's not a bad game to watch. Many times a person gets a + and doesn't contribute to the goal. Same with getting a - and not earning it. Sometimes a goalie bails you out. Sometimes a PP ends just as your scoring or being scored upon. Sometimes you just hop on the ice. +/- is a ridiculous statistic if you think Woolley isn't as good as Lidstrom.

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:47 PM
  #37
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LALA in the case of +/- between Pyatt and Sappy it is a determining fact because the players are so similar. Same age, similiar points per season, same position, similar ice times, similar line status (they don't play vs top lines on other teams), etc etc etc. The list goes on. In this case +/- can be used because there are so many factors that are equal. When one player is a career +3 and the other is a career -20 and both have so many similarities it shows alot more than your comparisons above.

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:48 PM
  #38
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
Pyatt +/- ARE WAY worse than Sappy. Sappy is better defensively.
Jason Woolley's +/- is much better than Niklas Lidstrom's. What were you saying again?

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Old
02-25-2004, 02:51 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Kovalchuk does suck, doesn't he?

I will trade you

Andy Delmore (+3)

for

Rhett Warrener (-1)
That is such a bad stat for these players. Like I said you cannot compare players that don't have similarities. Warrener plays vs top lines on other teams, Delmore certainly does not. Sappy and Pyatt have way more in common in thsi case.

Also on your Kova stat he is terrible defensively. Hence why he has a bad MINUS rating. For a guy who has 30+ goals and is on a line with other scorers he is on the ice for a ton of goals against to be minus, HENCE no defensive responsibility.

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:03 PM
  #40
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
LALA in the case of +/- between Pyatt and Sappy it is a determining fact because the players are so similar. Same age, similiar points per season, same position, similar ice times, similar line status (they don't play vs top lines on other teams), etc etc etc. The list goes on. In this case +/- can be used because there are so many factors that are equal. When one player is a career +3 and the other is a career -20 and both have so many similarities it shows alot more than your comparisons above.
My comparisons invalidate the usefulness of +/-.

So if Saprykin is better defensively, why in the hell has he played 3 minutes killing penalties in his career, while Pyatt has played more than that in his last two games killing penalties?

Before you answer that Ruff is an idiot for playing Pyatt on PK, note that Sabres PK has been in the top ten the past three years without Hasek. Ruff knows what he's doing.

Would the similarities between Saprykin and Pyatt involve the teams they were playing on? That is the obvious reason why it is crap. But you ignore the case of players on the same team where the obviously better player like Lidstrom has a worse +/- than Woolley.

Interestingly, Pyatt led the OHL in +/-. Now what franchise players will you give up for him?

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:10 PM
  #41
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
That is such a bad stat for these players. Like I said you cannot compare players that don't have similarities. Warrener plays vs top lines on other teams, Delmore certainly does not. Sappy and Pyatt have way more in common in thsi case.

Also on your Kova stat he is terrible defensively. Hence why he has a bad MINUS rating. For a guy who has 30+ goals and is on a line with other scorers he is on the ice for a ton of goals against to be minus, HENCE no defensive responsibility.
Sappy and Pyatt have more in common? Does Pryk kill penalties? Nope. Does Warrener really play against top lines? No. He's 4th in minutes per game amongst Flame defensemen. Warrener and Delmore both play under 20 minutes a game.

Kovalchuk's improved his defense this year tremendously. Heatley already is good defensively and he's -8 in 12 games. And usually, scoring lines face checking lines, who are known for their defense, not their offense. So why should he give up goals facing checkers? And why does he have a worse +/- than his linemates? Tough questions you are sure to avoid. I am looking forward to the comparison between Woolley and Lidstrom.

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:16 PM
  #42
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Ron Francis, Selke Award winner, but defensive liability with a career -10. Thanks, I am learning so much about hockey!

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:29 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames
LALA in the case of +/- between Pyatt and Sappy it is a determining fact because the players are so similar. Same age, similiar points per season, same position, similar ice times, similar line status (they don't play vs top lines on other teams), etc etc etc. The list goes on. In this case +/- can be used because there are so many factors that are equal. When one player is a career +3 and the other is a career -20 and both have so many similarities it shows alot more than your comparisons above.
Comparing +/- of players on different teams is completely useless IMO.

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:39 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Comparing +/- of players on different teams is completely useless IMO.
DING DING DING

That's your winner folkes.

While I agree with LaLa in the fact that +/- is the most useless stat and could (should) be gotten rid of for the many reasons that he has repeatedly stated, but the only way you can get a semblance of use from the stat is to compare to other players on that team, it cannot be compared league wide. Still comparing it through one team is still very flawed as seen in the Woolley/Lidstrom example.

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Old
02-25-2004, 03:39 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Comparing +/- of players on different teams is completely useless IMO.
Ditto. It can be used in conjunction with other stats to point to trends in someone's play, but it's not a definitive representation of one player on a different team over another. Gonchar's -18, when looking at his high total minutes played, the Caps lousy goals-for/goals-against ratio, and his PP production... it's representative of a player playing more on a bad team and his contributions don't reflect it. Not to absolve Gonchar completely, since he's responsible for his play and the impact it has on his partner, his goaltender, and whatever line he's backing up.

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