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Norris trophy shares

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Old
06-23-2011, 02:36 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Like Reds4Life said, there were seasons Lidstrom should have won and didn't.
The same argument can be used for Bourque. 1983-84 and 1995-96 were two seasons in particular where he deserved to win but didn't.

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06-21-2012, 06:24 PM
  #77
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Norris tropy voting record

Updated through 2012**

PLAYER FIRST SECOND THIRD FOURTH FIFTH TOTAL
Ray Bourque 5 6 4 4 0 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 7 3 1 1 1 13
Paul Coffey 3 2 1 1 4 11
Bobby Orr 8 0 1 0 0 9
Doug Harvey* 7 1 0 1 0 9
Pierre Pilote 3 3 0 2 0 8
Larry Robinson 2 1 3 1 1 8
Chris Chelios 3 2 1 1 0 7
Denis Potvin 3 2 1 1 0 7
Chris Pronger 1 0 3 1 2 7
Brad Park 0 6 0 1 0 7
Bill Gadsby* 0 3 2 1 1 7
Borje Salming 0 2 2 2 1 7
Scott Stevens 0 2 1 2 2 7
Brian Leetch 2 0 1 1 2 6
Al MacInnis 1 3 2 0 0 6
Zdeno Chara 1 1 3 1 0 6
Jacques Laperriere 1 1 0 2 2 6
Tim Horton 0 2 2 2 0 6
Guy Lapointe 0 1 1 2 2 6
Rod Langway 2 0 1 0 2 5
Rob Blake 1 0 2 1 1 5
Marcel Pronovost 0 1 2 0 2 5
JC Tremblay 0 1 1 1 2 5
Fern Flaman 0 0 3 0 2 5
Red Kelly* 1 2 1 0 0 4
Scott Niedermayer 1 2 0 0 1 4
Doug Wilson 1 0 1 2 0 4
Mark Howe 0 3 0 0 1 4
Larry Murphy 0 0 2 1 1 4
Phil Housley 0 0 1 0 3 4
Sergei Gonchar 0 0 0 3 1 4
Serge Savard 0 0 0 1 3 4
Tom Johnson 1 0 0 1 1 3
Shea Weber 0 2 0 1 0 3
Carl Brewer 0 1 1 1 0 3
Bill White 0 0 3 0 0 3
Pat Stapleton 0 0 1 2 0 3

* Played at least a few peak years before Norris trophy was first awarded in 1954

** Hopefully this is right. This is an update of an update of an update, and hopefully nothing has fallen through the cracks.

- Players in bold moved up in 2012

- This is not intended to be an all-inclusive ranking. Most importantly, this metric does not take into account quality of competition, or performance in the playoffs.

- Lidstrom ends his incredible career with yet another year as a Norris contender (although it was a distant 5th place finish). He's placed in the top five in Norris voting more than every blueliner except Bourque.

- There should be no doubt that Chara is a legitimate HOF player (in fact, I think he permanently silenced his critics in the spring of 2011). Although he did play in an era of weaker competition, his Norris record is similar to that of MacInnis and Leetch.

- Weber, with two first-team all-star positions and three years in the top five in Norris voting, is well on his way towards establishing a Hall of Fame career.

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06-21-2012, 11:08 PM
  #78
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Don't know about you guys, but I would probably rather win more than be a runner up more.

Four Cups to one does it for me, as well.

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06-22-2012, 12:06 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Don't know about you guys, but I would probably rather win more than be a runner up more.

Four Cups to one does it for me, as well.
Bourque had far tougher competition than Lidstrom.

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06-26-2012, 05:22 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Don't know about you guys, but I would probably rather win more than be a runner up more.
Not necessarily - Brad Park, Borje Salming and Scott Stevens are rightfully ranked ahead of Harry Howell, Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle. Obviously, Bourque/Lidstrom is a much closer comparison, but it requires more thought than "Lidstrom won more Norris trophies".

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06-27-2012, 03:06 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Don't know about you guys, but I would probably rather win more than be a runner up more.

Four Cups to one does it for me, as well.
Cups etc. are team awards and useless in comparing individual players. Especially when the said player has played in a strong dynasty team...

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:56 AM
  #82
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Norris trophy voting record

Updated through 2013**

PLAYER FIRST SECOND THIRD FOURTH FIFTH TOTAL
Ray Bourque 5 6 4 4 0 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 7 3 1 1 1 13
Paul Coffey 3 2 1 1 4 11
Bobby Orr 8 0 1 0 0 9
Doug Harvey* 7 1 0 1 0 9
Pierre Pilote 3 3 0 2 0 8
Larry Robinson 2 1 3 1 1 8
Chris Chelios 3 2 1 1 0 7
Denis Potvin 3 2 1 1 0 7
Zdeno Chara 1 1 3 1 1 7
Chris Pronger 1 0 3 1 2 7
Brad Park 0 6 0 1 0 7
Bill Gadsby* 0 3 2 1 1 7
Borje Salming 0 2 2 2 1 7
Scott Stevens 0 2 1 2 2 7
Brian Leetch 2 0 1 1 2 6
Al MacInnis 1 3 2 0 0 6
Jacques Laperriere 1 1 0 2 2 6
Tim Horton 0 2 2 2 0 6
Guy Lapointe 0 1 1 2 2 6
Rod Langway 2 0 1 0 2 5
Rob Blake 1 0 2 1 1 5
Marcel Pronovost 0 1 2 0 2 5
JC Tremblay 0 1 1 1 2 5
Fern Flaman 0 0 3 0 2 5
Red Kelly* 1 2 1 0 0 4
Scott Niedermayer 1 2 0 0 1 4
Doug Wilson 1 0 1 2 0 4
Mark Howe 0 3 0 0 1 4
Larry Murphy 0 0 2 1 1 4
Phil Housley 0 0 1 0 3 4
Sergei Gonchar 0 0 0 3 1 4
Serge Savard 0 0 0 1 3 4
Tom Johnson 1 0 0 1 1 3
Shea Weber 0 2 0 1 0 3
Carl Brewer 0 1 1 1 0 3
Bill White 0 0 3 0 0 3
Pat Stapleton 0 0 1 2 0 3

* Played at least a few peak years before Norris trophy was first awarded in 1954

** Hopefully this is right. This is an update of an update of an update, and hopefully nothing has fallen through the cracks.

- Players in bold moved up in 2013

- This is not intended to be an all-inclusive ranking. Most importantly, this metric does not take into account quality of competition, or performance in the playoffs.

- Chara is now tied for eighth (in a logjam) for most seasons as a Norris finalist.

Another way of looking at it:

Norris trophy normalized voting record

PlayerVotes
Ray Bourque 901
Nicklas Lidstrom 897
Bobby Orr 742
Doug Harvey* 626
Chris Chelios 416
Paul Coffey 394
Denis Potvin 361
Al MacInnis 345
Zdeno Chara 335
Pierre Pilote 335
Chris Pronger 289
Brian Leetch 284
Larry Robinson 276
Brad Park 265
Scott Niedermayer 238
Scott Stevens 231
Bill Gadsby 213
Rob Blake 211
Borje Salming 193
Red Kelly* 192
Rod Langway 185
Mark Howe 173
Tim Horton 151
Shea Weber 149
Mike Green 143
Jacques Laperriere 139
Sergei Gonchar 113
Marcel Pronovost 107
Doug Wilson 105
Harry Howell 102

* Played at least a few peak years before Norris trophy was first awarded in 1954

- Players in bold moved up in 2013

- This table is the sum of the Norris votes earned in each season, normalized so that 100 points = unanimous vote.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-16-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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Old
06-16-2013, 12:26 PM
  #83
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Could I ask, how many voters were there circa 1970 compared to 2013? It's a difficult question to answer, I know, but it seems kinda important when a player can win 20% (arbitrary) of his peers' confidence, and come away looking better than someone who earned 75% (again... arbitrary).

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06-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #84
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any way you slice it, Chara moves up the all-time list significantly this season.

I don't think he ever passes Pronger, but that's a conversation that's inevitable at this point..

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06-16-2013, 02:17 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
any way you slice it, Chara moves up the all-time list significantly this season.

I don't think he ever passes Pronger, but that's a conversation that's inevitable at this point..
Considering that Chara isn't done yet, it's quite possible to see him move past Pronger.

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06-16-2013, 08:11 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Could I ask, how many voters were there circa 1970 compared to 2013? It's a difficult question to answer, I know, but it seems kinda important when a player can win 20% (arbitrary) of his peers' confidence, and come away looking better than someone who earned 75% (again... arbitrary).
There were 36 voters in 1970 and 178 voters in 2013. The votes are scaled/normalized so a player who earns half the maximum votes will receive a score of 50 points, whether the voting was done by 36, 178 or any number of voters.

That being said, the actual mechanics of the voting changed in 1996. Prior to that, voters can three votes (5 points for first, 3 points for second, 1 point for third). Currently voters make five selections (worth 10, 7, 5, 3 and 1 point). The relative values of the votes have changed.

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06-16-2013, 08:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
There were 36 voters in 1970 and 178 voters in 2013. The votes are scaled/normalized so a player who earns half the maximum votes will receive a score of 50 points, whether the voting was done by 36, 178 or any number of voters.

That being said, the actual mechanics of the voting changed in 1996. Prior to that, voters can three votes (5 points for first, 3 points for second, 1 point for third). Currently voters make five selections (worth 10, 7, 5, 3 and 1 point). The relative values of the votes have changed.
Thank you very much, and excellent catch.

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06-16-2013, 10:32 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
any way you slice it, Chara moves up the all-time list significantly this season.

I don't think he ever passes Pronger, but that's a conversation that's inevitable at this point..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Considering that Chara isn't done yet, it's quite possible to see him move past Pronger.
an interesting thought, and one i hadn't even ever considered until just now. chara is really creeping up on us in an all-time sense.

if chara puts up a couple more norrises, then i guess you can make the argument. if chara wins the conn smythe (and i think if boston wins this year, it goes to krejci), then that argument gets a lot stronger.

but i think it's going to take that much to really make any comparison with pronger reasonable. i mean, the 2000 hart season is a pretty big trump card when norris finishes are almost identical, and pronger has one more elite playoff run (and, i'd argue, his edmonton run is by some margin the best out of the five runs between him and chara).

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06-16-2013, 11:09 PM
  #89
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Yeah, that's the thing, similar to broader/hasek, Chara was just never as good as pronger at his best, or even close.

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06-17-2013, 12:37 AM
  #90
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Yeah, that's the thing, similar to broader/hasek, Chara was just never as good as pronger at his best, or even close.
That's to me what the argument is going to come down to.

Pronger has the peak, and in reality a fluke Hart with Jagr, Bure, sakic, Forsberg and Lindros all missing parts of the season with injuries.

Pronger has the absolute best peak seasons but Chara has probably been better for longer stretches of time.

Pronger has 2 first team all star selections and 3 2nd team ones the same as Chara, except Chara has one more 2nd team one and probably adds to it this year.

At the end of the day it will depend how long Chara maintains his current level of play and his aging curve as well.

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06-17-2013, 12:54 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's to me what the argument is going to come down to.

Pronger has the peak, and in reality a fluke Hart with Jagr, Bure, sakic, Forsberg and Lindros all missing parts of the season with injuries.

Pronger has the absolute best peak seasons but Chara has probably been better for longer stretches of time.

Pronger has 2 first team all star selections and 3 2nd team ones the same as Chara, except Chara has one more 2nd team one and probably adds to it this year.

At the end of the day it will depend how long Chara maintains his current level of play and his aging curve as well.
do you think chara is close to pronger in terms of playoff performance? (i don't.)

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06-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #92
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do you think chara is close to pronger in terms of playoff performance? (i don't.)
No I doubt Chara will ever catch Pronger in that regard.

I wonder if healthy how much more Pronger adds to his playoff legacy?

Enough for top 10 Playoff Dmen of all time?

Heck off the top of my head he's in that group already probably.

Not sure that Chara is even top 20 yet.

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06-17-2013, 11:10 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's to me what the argument is going to come down to.

Pronger has the peak, and in reality a fluke Hart with Jagr, Bure, sakic, Forsberg and Lindros all missing parts of the season with injuries.

Pronger has the absolute best peak seasons but Chara has probably been better for longer stretches of time.

Pronger has 2 first team all star selections and 3 2nd team ones the same as Chara, except Chara has one more 2nd team one and probably adds to it this year.

At the end of the day it will depend how long Chara maintains his current level of play and his aging curve as well.
Pronger *should* have three Norrises (2000, 2004, 2007) and the 2007 Smythe.

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06-17-2013, 11:49 PM
  #94
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Pronger has the peak, and in reality a fluke Hart with Jagr, Bure, sakic, Forsberg and Lindros all missing parts of the season with injuries.
You're missing three other players: MacInnis, the defending Norris Trophy winner, and Demitra/Turgeon, the only 60-point+ players on St. Louis. The Blues didn't miss a beat in their absence because of how well Pronger was playing. With respect to Roman Turek, Chris Pronger got him onto 25/28 Vezina ballots. I don't think it's fair to call it a fluke Hart Trophy win. His 2000-01 season was lining up to be even better (and the Blues were battling the Avalanche for another President's Trophy) until he was the one to miss parts of the seasons because of injuries caused by his own teammates.

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06-18-2013, 01:02 AM
  #95
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You're missing three other players: MacInnis, the defending Norris Trophy winner, and Demitra/Turgeon, the only 60-point+ players on St. Louis. The Blues didn't miss a beat in their absence because of how well Pronger was playing. With respect to Roman Turek, Chris Pronger got him onto 25/28 Vezina ballots. I don't think it's fair to call it a fluke Hart Trophy win. His 2000-01 season was lining up to be even better (and the Blues were battling the Avalanche for another President's Trophy) until he was the one to miss parts of the seasons because of injuries caused by his own teammates.
Other Dmen have had years as good as Pronger had that year, Dmen generally don't do well recently in Hart voting.

As it was Jagr was only 1 voting point behind Pronger and he would have won the Hart even with 5 more games probably.

Chris Pronger 396 (25-9-11-8-4)
Jaromir Jagr 395 (18-22-9-4-4)
Pavel Bure 346 (11-18-16-9-3)

Heck even Bure, if he plays in 8 more games breaks the 60 goal mark, he had 58 and maybe gets to pass Pronger.

The following year Lidstrom has more Norris points 600 (56-5-1-0-0) to Pronger previous season of 565 (53-5-0-0-0) and is 10th in Hart voting.

Pronger wasn't that much better, if at all, in 00.

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06-19-2013, 12:44 AM
  #96
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Pronger is in kind of a Potvin situation too, where his GP cost him a few spots in all-star/norris voting here and there, so simple counting of rankings just doesn't do him justice.

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06-19-2013, 12:57 AM
  #97
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The following year Lidstrom has more Norris points 600 (56-5-1-0-0) to Pronger previous season of 565 (53-5-0-0-0) and is 10th in Hart voting.
Are you kidding me?!

Lidstrom had more Norris points because there were six more voters. The three preceding Norris winners - to whom he was a runner-up - missed time (Pronger, 51 GP; Blake, 67 GP; MacInnis, 59 GP), leaving him in a race against old Bourque.


EDIT: Four more voters. Whatever. It's 2am and I'm distracted by Top Gun.


Last edited by quoipourquoi: 06-19-2013 at 01:12 AM.
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06-19-2013, 07:51 AM
  #98
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Are you kidding me?!

Lidstrom had more Norris points because there were six more voters. The three preceding Norris winners - to whom he was a runner-up - missed time (Pronger, 51 GP; Blake, 67 GP; MacInnis, 59 GP), leaving him in a race against old Bourque.


EDIT: Four more voters. Whatever. It's 2am and I'm distracted by Top Gun.
I can imagine, that beach volleyball game is pretty sexy.

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06-19-2013, 08:36 AM
  #99
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I can imagine, that beach volleyball game is pretty sexy.
It's certainly helping to purge images of current Val Kilmer from my brain.

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06-19-2013, 10:00 PM
  #100
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Pronger is in kind of a Potvin situation too, where his GP cost him a few spots in all-star/norris voting here and there, so simple counting of rankings just doesn't do him justice.
I actually would have said that if Chara would win the Conn Smythe this season (a very legitimate question before the Finals, but I doubt it happens now), that it would be a conversation worth having, with Pronger probably coming out on top.

If Chara ends up with 9 top five finishes, and adds two more top 2 finishes, I think there's a question at least. But that's an awful lot for a 36 year old DMan to accomplish.

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