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Dallas scouting Witt and Gonchar

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Old
02-23-2004, 10:56 PM
  #1
jincargo
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Dallas scouting Witt and Gonchar

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Feb23.html

Here we go again...


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02-23-2004, 10:58 PM
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A 'Tuesday, February 24, 2004' dateline a few minutes before Tuesday, Wow, great link!

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02-23-2004, 11:01 PM
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Wash Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen
A 'Tuesday, February 24, 2004' dateline a few minutes before Tuesday, Wow, great link!
Always posts their articles late evening, before the paper version.

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02-23-2004, 11:24 PM
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Okay, letís throw this out here:

Dallas: Sergei Gonchar, Brendan Witt
Washington: Steve Ott, John Erskine, Trevor Daley, Antti Miettinen

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02-23-2004, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen
Okay, letís throw this out here:

Dallas: Sergei Gonchar, Brendan Witt
Washington: Steve Ott, John Erskine, Trevor Daley, Antti Miettinen
Where are the blue-chip defensive prospects?

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02-23-2004, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen
Okay, letís throw this out here:

Dallas: Sergei Gonchar, Brendan Witt
Washington: Steve Ott, John Erskine, Trevor Daley, Antti Miettinen
Steve Ott= Brian Sutherby, Boyd Gordon, Brooks Laich, Trent Whitfield, etc.

Erskine and Miettinen are "dime a dozen"

Daley a potential #3 defenseman.

NO SALE.

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02-24-2004, 12:03 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Steve Ott= Brian Sutherby, Boyd Gordon, Brooks Laich, Trent Whitfield, etc.

Erskine and Miettinen are "dime a dozen"

Daley a potential #3 defenseman.

NO SALE.
don't be dissing Erskine in NHL 2004's Dynasty he's my kick ass #6 Defnseman/Enforcer he'll rip himself from my TV and kick your ass for calling him dime a dozen he will!

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02-24-2004, 12:44 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Steve Ott= Brian Sutherby, Boyd Gordon, Brooks Laich, Trent Whitfield, etc.

Erskine and Miettinen are "dime a dozen"

Daley a potential #3 defenseman.

NO SALE.
Daley is not a potential no.3 defenseman. He's a 5 or 6 and a pp specialist. Smaller D-men, unless their name is Rafalski, can't climb any higher on a good team's depth chart.

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02-24-2004, 05:18 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen
Okay, letís throw this out here:

Dallas: Sergei Gonchar, Brendan Witt
Washington: Steve Ott, John Erskine, Trevor Daley, Antti Miettinen
No thanks. That has the Stars giving up their 3 best prospect in one deal. And I think that's way to much for 2 one-sided defensemen in their late 20's. Definitely a huge pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroCaps
Steve Ott= Brian Sutherby, Boyd Gordon, Brooks Laich, Trent Whitfield, etc.

Erskine and Miettinen are "dime a dozen"

Daley a potential #3 defenseman.

NO SALE.
Ok, excuse me for my upcoming rave, but:

Steve Ott is not equal to those prospects. The best one, Bryan Sutherby, would come the closest but you really don't seem to know Steve if you put him in the same breath as they. While both were still prospects, Steve Ott ranked above Sutherby in the top 50 lists for several seasons.

Sutherby turns 22 in a week and still isn't a regular on a relatively weak captial offense. His numbers in juniors are also nothing to write home about. Sure offense isn't really his game, but take a look at Ott, who's game is more about shutting down and agitating as well. Yet his numbers in the O were equal to that of Jason Spezza and the likes. Ott has managed to crack a much deeper line-up at a younger age.

Ott is pretty much a superior prospect on all fronts, Sutherby seems more like a more physical version of Niko Kapanen to me.

Erskine, I agree he's noting special. But a 6'5, 230 pound heavyweight who's a relaible and punishing hitter in his own zone is still something most teams would want. Limited potential but he should round out into a slightly better Eric Cairns.

As for Antti Miettinen, "dime a dozen?" Miettinen is the Stars top prospect, he won the Finnish league MVP before impressing the Stars at camp. He's seen as a more offensively and physically version of Jere Lehtinen. Not as good defensively ofcourse, but a potential Selke threat nonetheless. His final grade was a 7.5, and for the usual unbiased and very strict Stars writers, that's quite impressive.

Dime a dozen? Hell, he'd compete with Semin as the top forward prospect in your organisation.

Than we've arrived to Trevor Daley. There's your bluechip defensive prospect right there. His simularities with Bryan Rafalski are scary, though Trevor seems to be much more physical and a better skater. His potential is that of a #2 at best, and likely a #4 at worst.

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02-24-2004, 06:34 AM
  #10
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gonchar and witt are not going to end up in dallas. dallas doesn't offer likely top line players and defensemen that other teams can.

IF a deal happens with dallas it will be witt for ott and erskine.

the capitals will be looking at any trade of gonchar to be what the herschal walker trade was to the dallas cowboys.

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02-24-2004, 06:46 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
gonchar and witt are not going to end up in dallas. dallas doesn't offer likely top line players and defensemen that other teams can.
Very much agreed.. The Stars are thin among their established youth and with the overall age of the team, most are pretty much untouchable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
IF a deal happens with dallas it will be witt for ott and erskine.
Horrible.. While better, Witt doesn't adds much that Erskine doesn't. And I wouldn't even deal Ott for him straight up. Armstrong has mentioned that Ott is seen untouchable, regardless of the return as they are comitted to their youth right now. I'm willing to include him if it means getting an impact player though, but Army likely won't.

I don't want Witt, he wouldn't be necessary besides filling a depth and insurance role.


Last edited by Ajacied: 02-24-2004 at 06:54 AM.
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02-24-2004, 07:27 AM
  #12
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I don't know if this is stupid or not but what would the Stars gain from having both Gonchar and Zubov on the team, they bring similar things to the table and are both paid top-pairing money, yet would be a BIG gamble to play both on the first pairing, even though both (especially Zubov) have improved their defensive game.

 
Old
02-24-2004, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Very much agreed.. The Stars are thin among their established youth and with the overall age of the team, most are pretty much untouchable.



Horrible.. While better, Witt doesn't adds much that Erskine doesn't. And I wouldn't even deal Ott for him straight up. Armstrong has mentioned that Ott is seen untouchable, regardless of the return as they are comitted to their youth right now. I'm willing to include him if it means getting an impact player though, but Army likely won't.

I don't want Witt, he wouldn't be necessary besides filling a depth and insurance role.
As much as I like Otter, him and Kapenan, Meitts, Erskine( another HH99 favorite) and Daly,are all expendable. Otter cant stay on his skates long enough to be any good except collecting fighting majors, Kaps is like a reciever, scared to go across the middle, Meitts has speed and nothing more, Erskine- see Otter and Daly can skate with speed but cant not handle anyone with size in front of the net.. We already got Zubov and Mattie who cant handle sizable forwards, we dont need another 5-9 d man that cant either..We will have a Big, mean, fast, puck handling dman as soon as Nickerson get ready to leave college.. Personally, I think he,ll only play one more year, before he comes out. Mietts and Daly are in the , minors for a reason, they cant make the lineup.. If I am Wash. I dont make that deal either. They are not getting much in return.

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02-24-2004, 09:02 AM
  #14
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Oh please..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
No thanks.
Sutherby turns 22 in a week and still isn't a regular on a relatively weak captial offense. His numbers in juniors are also nothing to write home about. Sure offense isn't really his game, but take a look at Ott, who's game is more about shutting down and agitating as well. Yet his numbers in the O were equal to that of Jason Spezza and the likes. Ott has managed to crack a much deeper line-up at a younger age.
Do some research before you RAVE....

Sutherby has been hurt most of the season, and when he was with the Caps, the offense was far from "relatively weak" as you put it. There was barely a spot for him on the team, much less the top 3 lines. If Sutherby was healthy right now, he would at least be in the top 8 IMO. The fact is injuries have hurt him, and Cassidy shot his confidence, by giving him little ice time.

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02-24-2004, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyhomer99
As much as I like Otter, him and Kapenan, Meitts, Erskine( another HH99 favorite) and Daly,are all expendable.
They really aren't. They are pour crop and will form our core in a few years from now. Armstrong has stated several times hat he won't even consider Daley, Ott and Miettinen in trade talks. Erskine and Kapanen he didn't mention so who knows..

You seem to judge the youngsters based on their few games played with the Stars, not minding their upside and eventual impact. I wouldn't deal Ott who's upside I value higher than Morrow's, I wouldn't deal Miettinen who has everything what it takes to be a more advanced Jere Lehtinen. While Trevor Daley is our only defensive prospect who can make an impact. This deal would stand as our most rediculous deal ever, and you know it will come back to hunt you down, several times.

There's no team in the NHL that would trade their top 3 prospects and than some for anyone, regardless of the talent in return. It would mean a huge amount of pressure on the Stars to win it all this year, and if they don't (which seems the most likely), they are simply doomed for years to come. You think Morrow is enough to have the Stars contending? I certainly don't..

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02-24-2004, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanwon
Do some research before you RAVE....

Sutherby has been hurt most of the season, and when he was with the Caps, the offense was far from "relatively weak" as you put it. There was barely a spot for him on the team, much less the top 3 lines. If Sutherby was healthy right now, he would at least be in the top 8 IMO. The fact is injuries have hurt him, and Cassidy shot his confidence, by giving him little ice time.
I apologize for not knowing that. Just checked his games played and found out he was playing in the A. But, that doesn't change the fact Ott would be unnecessary and just one of a lot in the Caps line-up.

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02-24-2004, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
They really aren't. They are pour crop and will form our core in a few years from now. Armstrong has stated several times hat he won't even consider Daley, Ott and Miettinen in trade talks. Erskine and Kapanen he didn't mention so who knows..

You seem to judge the youngsters based on their few games played with the Stars, not minding their upside and eventual impact. I wouldn't deal Ott who's upside I value higher than Morrow's, I wouldn't deal Miettinen who has everything what it takes to be a more advanced Jere Lehtinen. While Trevor Daley is our only defensive prospect who can make an impact. This deal would stand as our most rediculous deal ever, and you know it will come back to hunt you down, several times.

There's no team in the NHL that would trade their top 3 prospects and than some for anyone, regardless of the talent in return. It would mean a huge amount of pressure on the Stars to win it all this year, and if they don't (which seems the most likely), they are simply doomed for years to come. You think Morrow is enough to have the Stars contending? I certainly don't..
IF these are our TOP 3 prospects... Were in BIG trouble..

There is a BIG difference between being something at the minor level and being able to play in the bigs.. Daly has been talked about and given a chance for 2 years to make the club and never has.. Can you say Richard Jackman... Mietts is more advanced the Lehtinen was but can not beat out someone like Niko Kapanen.. Can you say Todd Harvey.. Ott, I'll keep just because the guy has no sense and I like that..As for Daly and Meitts, nothing more than Jackman-Harvey clones.. They will be spare parts on teams with less than .500 records if they are to ever play over 300 NHL games.


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02-24-2004, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyhomer99
IF these are our TOP 3 prospects... Were in BIG trouble..
Not really, cause you seem to know little to nothing about their capabilities, upside and track record. I honestly think Ott is enjoying an as good rookie year as Morrow did at the time. You've praised Niko Kapanen more than anyone last season, now seem willing to waive him just like that.

Question, would you move Don Sweeney for.. pff.. I dunno.. Tuomo Ruutu?

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02-24-2004, 09:28 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Not really, cause you seem to know little to nothing about their capabilities, upside and track record. I honestly think Ott is enjoying an as good rookie year as Morrow did at the time. You've praised Niko Kapanen more than anyone last season, now seem willing to waive him just like that.

Question, would you move Don Sweeney for.. pff.. I dunno.. Tuomo Ruutu?
Your right about the praise I sang last year but he has gotten scared.. Don't use that Sophmore jinx crap, because this ant school.Soph. jinx is an excuse and a poor one at that..Not really comparing apples to apples in the trade but would trade him, that +/- is scary but that is in Chicago.. Twenty one putting up them points in Chicago.. Probably make the trade just not right now.. And I NEVER stated anything even remotely or otherwise that could be read as I was willing to WAIVE him.. Trade him yes, WAIVE no..

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02-24-2004, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Not really, cause you seem to know little to nothing about their capabilities, upside and track record. I honestly think Ott is enjoying an as good rookie year as Morrow did at the time. You've praised Niko Kapanen more than anyone last season, now seem willing to waive him just like that.

Question, would you move Don Sweeney for.. pff.. I dunno.. Tuomo Ruutu?
Morrow 1999 64gms 14 19 33pts +8
Ott 2003 55 2 10 12pts +1

Just how long so we wait before we decide to do something.. At least Gainey had the melons to see that Langenbrunner was as good as he was ever going to get and made the trade.. He also was the one that saw Jackman and Harvey would not live up to the minor league hype and track record and potential.. When do we say that these will not bear out at this level.. 3 years, 4 years, 5 years... When?? Did it take anyone 5 years to see Modano would make it or Morrow or Lehtinen.. It seems that no one wants to make that call for fear that somebody could be the next Forsberg.. Bet Philly would like to redo that..Just tell how long we should wait for a player to live up to his potential, hype and minor league track record.. and I'll wait with you.


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02-24-2004, 09:37 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyhomer99
IF these are our TOP 3 prospects... Were in BIG trouble..

There is a BIG difference between being something at the minor level and being able to play in the bigs.. Daly has been talked about and given a chance for 2 years to make the club and never has.. Can you say Richard Jackman...
Oh my, this is exactly what I mean. You don't know jack about prospects.

Daley is 20 years old, 20! And you are prepared to write him off since he hasn't been able to crack an immensely deep Stars defense at the at of 19 and 20? Yet, he's still been able to crack it about 20+ games this season but has rightfully been sent down to get more seasoning and eventually return when he's needed more.

I'm not going to comment any further, I like you very much as a poster but you are one of the most uninformed fans of prospects I have ever witnessed at HF, no offense. Maybe you would take GLUHipfan more seriously, so maybe you can ask him, instead of making yourself looking like a fool in public.

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02-24-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyhomer99
Morrow 1999 64gms 14 19 33pts +8
Ott 2003 55 2 10 12pts +1
Doesn't show icetime, how well they've played defensively, how well they've been able to shift momentum, or their agitating skills, you name it. All it shows is that Morrow has better offensive stats, which is logical when you realise Morrow saw about 17 minutes playing next to Nieuwendyk and Langebrunner while Ott has to comfort Barnes and DiMaio, furfilling a shutdown role in a mere 7 mintes a night.

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02-24-2004, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Doesn't show icetime, how well they've played defensively, how well they've been able to shift momentum, or their agitating skills, you name it. All it shows is that Morrow has better offensive stats, which is logical when you realise Morrow saw about 17 minutes playing next to Nieuwendyk and Langebrunner while Ott has to comfort Barnes and DiMaio, furfilling a shutdown role in a mere 7 mintes a night.
Ever think thats because that is as good as he is.. That he may not be anything more than a fourth liner..Not sure how with the loss of Hatcher and the trade of Sydor, that at the beginning of the year this d corp was deep, but you have the right to an option.. You can call me uninformed,stupid or just flat ignorant, if you chose, but all the hype and potential doesnt make for results and they are producing no results..

I take Gulhip seriously but that does not mean I have to agree.. Hell I dont with Tippit or Armstrong sometimes. I think the only one making an ass of himself is the one who thinks others have no right to their own opinion or assement of a player, coach, GM or announcers..I dont take offense to anyone, we can agree to disagree all day, but does that make you ignorant, NO, you just see things differently..


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02-24-2004, 09:54 AM
  #24
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Hey Homer,

I can't believe how down you are on these guys. It's insane.

Spezza didn't play right away for the Sens...neither did Vermette for the Sens (in case you know how they are).

Spezza who was one of the best players drated in his year didn't step into the sens roster because of two things. Roster depth and maturity.

Spezza had ALOT to learn coming out of Junior. Mainly how to play defence wich is paramount in the NHL. The NHL game is faster, tougher, and more defensively oriented than Junior where it's all about offence.

If Spezza would have been drafted by a lower rung team...he would have stepped right into the NHL; that's for sure. But the Sens didn't need him right away...so they let him mature in Junior for another year and spent a year in the AHL to round out his game.

Same thing goes for Daley and the Stars. He's got to learn how to play a man's game...and is argueably one of the best defensive prospects in the league right now.

Sure you can say that guys like bouwmeester stepped right into the NHL, but he plays for a bad team, and is a very "special" talent. They couldn't afford to let him mature gradualy...the stars have the LUXERY of doing that with Daley.

Teams like Dallas and Ottawa can allow their prospects to mature at their own rate...not many teams can do that. for me personally, it benefits thte players the most by doing this.

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02-24-2004, 10:10 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
Hey Homer,

I can't believe how down you are on these guys. It's insane.

Spezza didn't play right away for the Sens...neither did Vermette for the Sens (in case you know how they are).

Spezza who was one of the best players drated in his year didn't step into the sens roster because of two things. Roster depth and maturity.

Spezza had ALOT to learn coming out of Junior. Mainly how to play defence wich is paramount in the NHL. The NHL game is faster, tougher, and more defensively oriented than Junior where it's all about offence.

If Spezza would have been drafted by a lower rung team...he would have stepped right into the NHL; that's for sure. But the Sens didn't need him right away...so they let him mature in Junior for another year and spent a year in the AHL to round out his game.

Same thing goes for Daley and the Stars. He's got to learn how to play a man's game...and is argueably one of the best defensive prospects in the league right now.

Sure you can say that guys like bouwmeester stepped right into the NHL, but he plays for a bad team, and is a very "special" talent. They couldn't afford to let him mature gradualy...the stars have the LUXERY of doing that with Daley.

Teams like Dallas and Ottawa can allow their prospects to mature at their own rate...not many teams can do that. for me personally, it benefits thte players the most by doing this.
I am really not down on these guys.. I think they are where they are.. In a few years they may be the thew next Modano or Alfredsson's but if the right package come along you have to be ready to part.. Jerome Iginla is the perfact example.. Had never made the team but Neiwy was there and that is what it cost them.. Was a good deal, we got a cup and they got a great player, now..Ott and Erskine, I love, would hate to lose them but again, we hated losing Iginla.. Daly just has never impressed me and I am, overly maybe, concerned about his size and as you can see we did not have the luxury of waiting on dmen to develope. That why we had to go and a Jon Kleem, thank god... None of these guys are in Spezza catagory, again only MY OPINION...

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