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Old
09-15-2008, 10:29 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
On this, I agree. Actions like that will serve much more as a "deterent" than anything else.
thats how montreal played last season......and it worked pretty well for them a sthey didnt have a heavyweight

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09-15-2008, 10:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He's got to stop getting suspended first.
I think he'll learn discipline and that he has the skills to pot 20 goals. Doesn't mean he will do it but it would not be a shock to me if he did. I'd trade Orr in a heartbeat for Downie. Even if Downie failed, the loss of Orr would be meaningless.

Throughout the years the Rangers very rarely acquire physical players who go on to have skills as their career moves forward a la Cam Neely or Rick Tocchet. At the moment I can't think of a single one but I imagine there must be a couple.

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09-16-2008, 08:09 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If a team gets pushed around the response is not with the fists, but with the entire team hitting back. If you hit Gomez, we're going to hit both your players twice.

What does a fight really do?
What world are you living in? What league do you watch? You're pro-Bettman, anti-fighting babbling is brutal to read. There are endless examples of enforcers protecting valuable players which I don't feel like listing. Its people like you who watch the game and dont see anything dirty or cheap happeneing and feel like there is no need for enforcers. What you don't realize is what would go on without enforcers. The stickwork, hits from behind, taking liberties, etc. Its like making an argument that because there is low crime they should get rid of all police departments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Well here we go again. Orr haters have you seen what other teams have done with the enforcers? Islanders Sugden,Fritz The Devils just went out and got Kevin cormier have Asham and Clarkson, The Flyers have Downie and Cote who they just resigned and the Pens have Goddard. We need Orr and with guys like Shanny not a around we are softer then ever
Asham is on the Flyers now, but the Devils will likely dress Sheldon Brookbank this year.

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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
thats how montreal played last season......and it worked pretty well for them a sthey didnt have a heavyweight
It did? They got beat up in the 2nd round by the Flyers and in turn Montreal in the offseason went out and signed Georges Laraque (the heavyweight champ of the NHL) to a multi-year deal.

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09-16-2008, 08:14 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
That may be. However, I thik that last year showed that Renney will play Orr. And play him a lot. I think that both Orr and Voros will play significant time on the 4th line this year. At the same time.
I think Renney has too many 4th line options for Colton to be a lock for 75 games this year. If the depth is there to roll 4 lines consistently, it's going to be tough to use him at all.

Not expecting to see Voros on the 4th line either, but that's a discussion for another thread.

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09-16-2008, 08:15 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
Oh man. Listen, I like Orr as a guy but I want him away from our line-up. His one clear skill is fighting and for me that's someone you don't want in your team. Sure, he'll work hard, well, so would I if I played for the Rangers. He's simply not a good enough hockey player.
Like it or not theyll always be a role for a guy like him.

He has improved over the past few years, but the 4th line struggled a bit last season. Let's not forget he was a -13 last year on a good defensive team. The fact that he (and the rest of the line) doesnt offset that with any offense really makes it a competition for spots down there this year.

He'll get his time, but if someone else works and can supply the same enforcer role while adding offense, I would expect him to get less time than in the past.

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09-16-2008, 08:16 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Well here we go again. Orr haters have you seen what other teams have done with the enforcers? Islanders Sugden,Fritz The Devils just went out and got Kevin cormier have Asham and Clarkson, The Flyers have Downie and Cote who they just resigned and the Pens have Goddard. We need Orr and with guys like Shanny not a around we are softer then ever
And on that note...happy birthday ya big lug

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09-16-2008, 08:17 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think Renney has too many 4th line options for Colton to be a lock for 75 games this year. If the depth is there to roll 4 lines consistently, it's going to be tough to use him at all.

Not expecting to see Voros on the 4th line either, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I agree.

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09-16-2008, 08:19 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Like it or not theyll always be a role for a guy like him.

He has improved over the past few years, but the 4th line struggled a bit last season. Let's not forget he was a -13 last year on a good defensive team. The fact that he (and the rest of the line) doesnt offset that with any offense really makes it a competition for spots down there this year.

He'll get his time, but if someone else works and can supply the same enforcer role while adding offense, I would expect him to get less time than in the past.
Part of that -13 is due to Renney trying to use the 4th line as a shutdown line at some points and playing it against other top lines in tough spots, often late in games as well. It happened a noticeable amount of times last season.

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09-16-2008, 08:19 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Janssen25 View Post
What world are you living in? What league do you watch? You're pro-Bettman, anti-fighting babbling is brutal to read. There are endless examples of enforcers protecting valuable players which I don't feel like listing. Its people like you who watch the game and dont see anything dirty or cheap happeneing and feel like there is no need for enforcers. What you don't realize is what would go on without enforcers. The stickwork, hits from behind, taking liberties, etc. Its like making an argument that because there is low crime they should get rid of all police departments.
Please, feel free not to read it. And certainly don't feel compelled to respond to it.

Please show me anywhere that I said I'm anti-fighting. I just don't have any interest in the UFC on Ice.

Just out of curiosity, who was the Red Wing's enforcer last season?

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09-16-2008, 08:26 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D713B View Post
Part of that -13 is due to Renney trying to use the 4th line as a shutdown line at some points and playing it against other top lines in tough spots, often late in games as well. It happened a noticeable amount of times last season.
In reality, probably happend like twice.

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09-16-2008, 08:31 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
In reality, probably happend like twice.
Gonna have to disagree with you there. He put the 4th line out there pretty often. It even happened in the playoffs. Ie. Hollwegs famous penalty against the Pens. He puts a lot of faith/trust in the 4th line.

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09-16-2008, 08:33 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by D713B View Post
Gonna have to disagree with you there. He put the 4th line out there pretty often. It even happened in the playoffs. Ie. Hollwegs famous penalty against the Pens. He puts a lot of faith/trust in the 4th line.
He has to, keeps the top lines from being overused. Thats just my thinking on the matter.

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09-16-2008, 08:34 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
He has to, keeps the top lines from being overused. Thats just my thinking on the matter.
Obviously. I'm stating that he does more so than other coaches by playing them against other top 2 lines. He does so with a confidence as well.

I mean there were even at least 2 occasions where he went with the 4th line at the beginning of a period to match up against a top line.

In comparison how often did you see a 4th line out against Jagr's line last year? Rarely. And when it did happen you noticed because Jagr took advantage of the situation.


Last edited by D713B: 09-16-2008 at 08:41 AM.
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09-16-2008, 08:40 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Janssen25 View Post
What world are you living in? What league do you watch? You're pro-Bettman, anti-fighting babbling is brutal to read. There are endless examples of enforcers protecting valuable players which I don't feel like listing. Its people like you who watch the game and dont see anything dirty or cheap happeneing and feel like there is no need for enforcers. What you don't realize is what would go on without enforcers. The stickwork, hits from behind, taking liberties, etc. Its like making an argument that because there is low crime they should get rid of all police departments.
The idea that if an opposing player takes a cheapshot at your player, sending a player like Orr after the offender will somehow prevent it from happening again is bull. If it were true, these types of hits would disappear and clearly they have not.

By the way, I like watching fights. I just understand that they are a side show of entertainment that plays no role in the outcome of a game.

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09-16-2008, 08:41 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Please, feel free not to read it. And certainly don't feel compelled to respond to it.

Please show me anywhere that I said I'm anti-fighting. I just don't have any interest in the UFC on Ice.

Just out of curiosity, who was the Red Wing's enforcer last season?
Well done...

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09-16-2008, 08:44 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by schmieder44 View Post
Well done...
Downey did have 10 fighting majors.

Not to mention that argument is flawed because how many teams didn't have an enforcer and didn't make the playoffs?


Last edited by D713B: 09-16-2008 at 08:52 AM.
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09-16-2008, 08:49 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by D713B View Post
Downey did have 10 fighting majors.
He also played in only 33 games.

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09-16-2008, 08:54 AM
  #93
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How many teams didn't have enforcers and didn't even make the playoffs? Not to mention Pitts had Laraque and was right there with them and the year before Anaheim had Parros, O'brien and Thornton and Ottawa had McGrattan. So I fail to see how the argument of Detroit not carrying an enforcer holds much weight.

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09-16-2008, 08:58 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
We can all find the odd game here or there but the situations you describe don't happen 99% of the time.

The larger issue is it was one guy's job to be the physical answer. The Rangers as a team should have pounded the Bruins top line for the rest of the game. Not for one shift for an enforcer to fight one person, go to the box and then do nothing the rest of the game.

The game's changed you have to be able to do other things besides fight. And Orr has not shown that he can.
The main reason they don't happen 99% of thr time is becuase the Rangers employ an enforcer who answers the bell everytime! Like when Prucha got run not oince but twice against Atlanta. Orr went right out there with Hollweg I believe, and pummeled the guy.

The larger issue you mention doesn't really apply for the Rangers. The Rangers don't have physical players in thier top 6. SAnd back then they certainly didn't. Who was going to pound them, Petr Nedved? Jan Hlavac? This season the Rangers at this point don't have that element in thier top 6 either. Cept for maybe Dubinsky. Maybe Fritsche can work his way up too, but team toughness is buried in the 3rd and 4th lines for the Rangers, and they certainly don't have that in thier defense either. Other than Girardi, you will get the occasional hit from Staal but that's about it. So for team toughness you are relying on Voros, Fritsche and Orr.

If Orr hasn't showed that he can play, why do they keep him in the lineup as much as they do? He has pretty much been a permanent staple on the team ever since that philly game two seasons ago. He's there for a reason, and in the past couple of seasons he has done a very good job in his role.

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09-16-2008, 09:00 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No I don't recall people running around punching people. And if they're not, what does Orr do? He doesn't skate well enough to hit other team's best players. So we're back to the question, what does fighting do in that situation? Take Orr and the other teams enforcer off the ice for five minutes. And then what?
You don't see players rabbit-punching, sucker-punching, jabbing to the face, punches to the back of the head and nasty stick fouls?

Wow.

No, the enforcer doesn't literally prevent those things from happening. Never has. But they do prevent it from occuring multiple times in a game.

But, guys like Orr give you a response.

Just like that video with Orr hammering Overcheckin'

Brashear took liberties with Jagr, so Orr took liberties with Overcheckin'.

What does it solve? Who knows what it solves.

But it's better than sitting back and getting creamed all night, with the Refs looking the other way.

On second thought, it does solve something. It's called revenge.

And in case you've been in a coma for the last 30 years, revenge has always been a big part of hockey. Always was, always will be. You don't permit opponents to take liberties with your best players and spend the game hammering you.

So if you're going to build a team with so may finesse players, you need the physical players on the roster; as well as one or two hay-makers.

it doesn't take a genius to see that there's always going to be opponents who will take physical liberties and dirty liberties with your players. No matter who's in the lineup. But guys like Orr responding and doing what they do; typically puts an end to nonsense and settles everythign down. Sometimes it akes a huge out-burst or two with a lot of fighting. But eventually it settels down and the opponent knows that their best players are going to get creamed, too. Once those finesse players start getting hammeres routinely and every shift; they start whining to their teammates to settle down because they are the ones taking the brunt of the revenge.


Last edited by Jeds2StepOpus: 09-16-2008 at 09:07 AM.
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09-16-2008, 01:38 PM
  #96
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First I'd like to say the above post is a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Please, feel free not to read it. And certainly don't feel compelled to respond to it.

Please show me anywhere that I said I'm anti-fighting. I just don't have any interest in the UFC on Ice.

Just out of curiosity, who was the Red Wing's enforcer last season?
UFC on Ice? What the hell r u talking about? This is about you stating that the role of the enforcer is useless which is ludicrous.

You Red Wings argument is horrible as well. They played in a Division that had basically no prominent fighters (Chicago, Nashville, Columbus) aside from St. Louis with DJ King and Janssen. Downey still had 10 majors so to act like they had no enforcer role what so ever is false.

Did you happen to forget the 2007 playoffs when they got punished by the NHL fighting major leaders Anaheim Ducks en route to their 1st Stanley Cup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
By the way, I like watching fights. I just understand that they are a side show of entertainment that plays no role in the outcome of a game.
You clearly don't understand actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D713B View Post
How many teams didn't have enforcers and didn't even make the playoffs? Not to mention Pitts had Laraque and was right there with them and the year before Anaheim had Parros, O'brien and Thornton and Ottawa had McGrattan. So I fail to see how the argument of Detroit not carrying an enforcer holds much weight.
It doesn't at all. He named a team that actually employed an enforcer and played him when needed during the season, which wasn't very often considering their division.

If you're a fan of the high flying, high scoring, non-hitting, non-fighting, style of hockey then Im sure you did enjoy Detroits run to the Cup. Probably a reason they had thousands of empty seats throughout their run to the finals last year.

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09-16-2008, 01:43 PM
  #97
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It is really simple.

Colton Orr is the slowest player on the roster. He has the least skill. He has the worst skating ability. And he has 6 points in 163 career NHL games. At a -15 clip. Another horrifying stat is that he has only 48 career shots on goal. And that is not because he doesn't have the opportunity... that is because he is downright AWFUL.

That is why he gets no mention. And that is why he may not even make the cut this year.

He is a good guy, i like him as a person. But he is an awful NHL player.


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09-16-2008, 02:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
It is really simple.

Colton Orr is the slowest player on the roster. He has the least skill. He has the worst skating ability. And he has 6 points in 163 career NHL games. At a -15 clip. Another horrifying stat is that he has only 48 career shots on goal. And that is not because he doesn't have the opportunity... that is because he is downright AWFUL.

That is why he gets no mention. And that is why he may not even make the cut this year.

He is a good guy, i like him as a person. But he is an awful NHL player.
Players have specific roles that they are told to play and Orr's is an enforcer. He isn't out there to score goals, get points or get shots on goal as you state. He has a specific role and does it well as far as I'm concerned.

I almost hope Orr doesn't play this year so many of you can see that the Rangers will have ZERO toughness in their line-up. Renney's not stupid.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 09-16-2008 at 02:11 PM. Reason: People who don't agree with you are not "fools". Bottle the edge.
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09-16-2008, 04:42 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
It is really simple.

Colton Orr is the slowest player on the roster. He has the least skill. He has the worst skating ability. And he has 6 points in 163 career NHL games. At a -15 clip. Another horrifying stat is that he has only 48 career shots on goal. And that is not because he doesn't have the opportunity... that is because he is downright AWFUL.

That is why he gets no mention. And that is why he may not even make the cut this year.

He is a good guy, i like him as a person. But he is an awful NHL player.
He'll make the cut. Look at the division we play in, heck look at the conference we play in. There will be plenty of need for Colton's lone skill. We do have a glut of 3rd/4th liners but if Colton plays less than 50-60 games I would be shocked. Sending the team we have out there without Orr would be akin to rushing an average person up the middle in an NFL game. It wouldn't be pretty. 240+lb Jagr was run without Colton's presence in the line up. You really think Gomez, Drury and the rest of our diminutive line up will fair any better?

Once again, what do we really gain from taking him out of the line up? Do you really expect to score with Blair Betts centering our 4th line anyway? Last year he got playing time with more offensively talented players, the most he's ever had in NY in Sjo and Cally, yet he put up his lowest point total as a Ranger. (Don't misinterpret that, I love Blair and the role he plays on this team.)

And please lets refrain from using the +/- statistic, it's quite possibly the most useless statistic in all of sports and I'm a big fan of statistical analysis.

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09-17-2008, 03:35 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He also played in only 33 games.
Apparently he may be playing in more contests this coming year.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/rumors/p...urn=nhl,108418

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