Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
Kovalchuk and Klee for Michalek, Couture, McLaren, Lukowich
You don't know a darn thing about the Thrashers so shut the heck up. Yeah, Enstrom, Little, Pavelec...no future for Atlanta.
You completely embarrassed yourself with the trading Bogosian for Kuba comment.
Try to imagine how Getzlaf would have done on the Thrashers last year, Mr. Know-It-All.
That was supposed to go at the end of the first paragraph, I was talking about Waddell not Kovalchuk. He already traded Coburn for Zhitnik so the history is there.
OP, your offers have been continually ridiculous. Many people learn that their proposals just don't make sense, yet you persist.
Please no more.
PLEASE... NO MORE.
Gee, that's funny, because my proposals get some of the highest amounts of posts, and they are a lot less one-sided than most proposals we see gere. People seem to enjoy discussing them. Also, prposals don't have to be fair to be realistic, if you'd proposed Jokinen fo Ballard and Boynton a few months ago you would have been laughed at. In case you've forgotten I also proposed Carle, Wishart, and McLaren for Boyle and O'Brien a day or two before the actual Boyle trade happened.
Last edited by Mortal Fear*: 09-14-2008 at 04:19 PM.
these trade proposals are absolute jokes. the only way Kovie goes to the sharks is if Cheechoo, Michalek, and Setoguchi and Couture come back the other way. that should fill Atlanta's top 6 pretty well for years to come while Kovalchuk is ripping up 50 goal seasons and Cheechoo never gets back to 50 again and Milan Michalek is overrated beyond hell for his size and speed and teammates.
the Rangers propasal is equally as bad.
an undersized forward, and undersized defenseman, Cherry (has shown nothing in the aspect of wanting to dominate games) and a first?... no. in fact, there is no one in the Rangers top 6 worth trading for over Kovalchuk.
Gee, that's funny, because my proposals get some of the highest amounts of posts, and they are a lot less one-sided than most proposals we see gere. People seem to enjoy discussing them. Also, prposals don't have to be fair to be realistic, if you'd proposed Yokinen fo Ballard and Boynton a few months ago you would have been laughed at. In case you've forgotten I also proposed Carle, Wishart, and McLaren for Boyle and O'Brien a day or two before the actual Boyle trade happened.
the reason they get posts is you reply to everyone who rips on them for being junk.
That was supposed to go at the end of the first paragraph, I was talking about Waddell not Kovalchuk. He already traded Coburn for Zhitnik so the history is there.
It was obvious that you were talking about DW, and obvious that you don't know the backstory of that trade, like most of the hf fanboys.
If the Thrashers are going to trade Kovalchuk it is because he wants to leave. If that is true they would no doubt give the potential trading partner a window to negotiate an extension since Atlanta would get much more in that situation.
Thornton, Pronger, or Luongo all had new contracts negotiated before being traded? It could happen but it wouldn't necessarily get you that much more value because then you're asking Kovalchuk where he'd want to be traded to or the teams he will negotiate with. Then Atlanta's in a situation where they have a limited number of trade partners, similar to dealing a NTC player.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kovalchuk is going to be traded. But until he signs that extension the possibility is there, and if Atlanta were to trade him I think the OP's offer is a lot closer in reality, based on recent history, than others are saying. Some peoples offers are just a handful of prospects, you can pretty much guarantee that wouldn't happen. Atlanta's just above the cap floor as it is, drop Kovalchuk and they'd be well below it, left to find expensive scraps to fill out the roster. Getting say Michalek, Clowe, and McLaren would be much more realistic for them.
uh no what? are you saying he's only worth table scraps or that he isn't the 2nd best behind Ovy?
id say 2nd is a close tie up between kovy, crosby, and malkin
I'm saying that while you could certainly argue he's at least one of the top-10 forwards in the league, there's at least 8-9 other players out there you could make the argument for being as good if not better than him. So saying he's "top2" is purely homerism
That's also not counting defensemen and goaltenders.
To me at least, he hasn't really distinguished himself anymore than Spezza, Staal, Heatley, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Iginla, Lecavalier, Thornton, etc...
It was obvious that you were talking about DW, and obvious that you don't know the backstory of that trade, like most of the hf fanboys.
I hope you're not seriously trying to defend DW's body of work as GM. We're talking about a guy who sold out the future of his team for one brutally timed playoff run with a team that was barely good enough to even make the playoffs. That puts him squarely in Garth Snow and Jacques Martin territory. When you go from having the 8th overall pick in the draft to a bought-out contract, and the guy you picked is tearing it up with another team, you've done a pretty piss poor job.
Doubtful. This is their sole superstar player. They're going to do everything in their power to keep him, even if that means offering max salary. If Kovalchuk and his agent make it crystal clear that they won't negotiate with the Thrashers at all during his contract year, then there's a possibility of him being dealt.
However, the most likely scenario is that they will keep the Thrashers around and offering as an alternative because it's unlikely that he would get max salary from another place that's going to be a better team. As long as the Thrashers think they have a chance to re-sign him, they'll keep him. That is, of course, the gamble you take with practically any player in their contract year.
If Kovalchuk does publically say he won't negotiate with the Thrashers and will test the market, then he probably will get dealt. However, they won't get much of anything for him because they're forced to deal him or get nothing. They'll get a good package but nothing near what people here are suggesting.
Won't get that much.Explain that to the 29 other teams in a bidding war for him.If Kovalchuk gets traded it will be a Lindros type deal my friend not like a Thornton like deal where the Sharks came out smelling like roses.All Waddell has to do is announce he's accepting bids on Kovalchuk and the best deal gets him. Teams will be lining up and offering a lot.Were talking about the 2nd best natural goal-scorer in the league and could easily be the best with a little help.
Won't get that much.Explain that to the 29 other teams in a bidding war for him.If Kovalchuk gets traded it will be a Lindros type deal my friend not like a Thornton like deal where the Sharks came out smelling like roses.All Waddell has to do is announce he's accepting bids on Kovalchuk and the best deal gets him. Teams will be lining up and offering a lot.Were talking about the 2nd best natural goal-scorer in the league and could easily be the best with a little help.
I hope you're not seriously trying to defend DW's body of work as GM. We're talking about a guy who sold out the future of his team for one brutally timed playoff run with a team that was barely good enough to even make the playoffs. That puts him squarely in Garth Snow and Jacques Martin territory. When you go from having the 8th overall pick in the draft to a bought-out contract, and the guy you picked is tearing it up with another team, you've done a pretty piss poor job.
I'm not trying to defend DW's body of work, but he has made some good moves, and many of his bad moves were requested by the ownership. For example, the owners told DW to sell off what ever he could to make the playoffs. It wasn't DW's idea.
If you think the Hossa to Pitt deal was weak, or that the Savard and Kozlov trades weren't good, we will agree to disagree.
Coburn was a massive bust in Atlanta, and had attitude issues both in Atlanta and in Chicago with the wolves...he had almost no trade value, and we were thrilled to get Zhitty Zhitty Bang Bang for him. I saw Braydon play and I saw him practice with Atlanta. He stunk even in practice. Most Thrashers fans said "good riddance" when he was traded.
20/20 Fanboy Hindsight doesn't mean a thing.
At the end of the day, we have Enstrom and Bogosian. We'll move on. Best of luck to Coburn.
The real massive mistake DW made was not firing Hartley in the middle of the one season they made the playoffs back when the team was in a tailspin. The team had been fair to decent on paper, and Hartley turned the team into junk with horrible line combos and constant dump and chase. Hartley's coaching during the NYR sweep was beyond the pale.
Last edited by Magnus Fulgur: 09-14-2008 at 08:25 PM.
I'm not trying to defend DW's body of work, but he has made some good moves, and many of his bad moves were requested by the ownership. For example, the owners told DW to sell off what ever he could to make the playoffs. It wasn't DW's idea.
If you think the Hossa to Pitt deal was weak, or that the Savard and Kozlov trades weren't good, we will agree to disagree.
Coburn was a massive bust in Atlanta, and had attitude issues both in Atlanta and in Chicago with the wolves...he had almost no trade value, and we were thrilled to get Zhitty Zhitty Bang Bang for him. I saw Braydon play and I saw him practice with Atlanta. He stunk even in practice. Most Thrashers fans said "good riddance" when he was traded.
20/20 Fanboy Hindsight doesn't mean a thing.
At the end of the day, we have Enstrom and Bogosian. We'll move on. Best of luck to Coburn.
The real massive mistake DW made was not firing Hartley in the middle of the one season they made the playoffs back when the team was in a tailspin. The team had been fair to decent on paper, and Hartley turned the team into junk with horrible line combos and constant dump and chase. Hartley's coaching during the NYR sweep was beyond the pale.
Hossa trade was good, but any GM could have made that trade, it doesn't take a lot of foresight to trade a player who you would otherwise lose to free agency for nothing. Savard trade was goods but DW ruined it by not paying up to keep him when he hit free agency. If you put Savard on that playoff team, they might have been good enough to entice Hossa to stay long-term, and that would have at least made Atlanta a formidable team.
these trade proposals are absolute jokes. the only way Kovie goes to the sharks is if Cheechoo, Michalek, and Setoguchi and Couture come back the other way. that should fill Atlanta's top 6 pretty well for years to come while Kovalchuk is ripping up 50 goal seasons and Cheechoo never gets back to 50 again and Milan Michalek is overrated beyond hell for his size and speed and teammates.
the Rangers propasal is equally as bad.
an undersized forward, and undersized defenseman, Cherry (has shown nothing in the aspect of wanting to dominate games) and a first?... no. in fact, there is no one in the Rangers top 6 worth trading for over Kovalchuk.
Proposing a trade at this point for Kovalchuk is ridiculous because there's a little under two years before his contract is up so making a play for an untouchable asset when they don't really benefit by trading him now is just pointless. It might change in the next off-season but I doubt it considering the history of all GM's in a similar boat. Also, I understand if you don't view Cheechoo highly because honestly, he's a 2nd or 3rd tier top line winger...somewhere between the 20th and 60th best wingers, however calling Milan Michalek overrated shows complete ignorance to the Sharks and specifically his game since he has started his career. Milan Michalek is one of the top two way top line wingers at his age in the league. There's more to playing hockey than scoring 30 or 40 goals. Watch his defensive ability, his backchecking, his stick work in his own zone, and his awareness. He is ahead of a great portion of the league's comparably aged players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trapper
Won't get that much.Explain that to the 29 other teams in a bidding war for him.If Kovalchuk gets traded it will be a Lindros type deal my friend not like a Thornton like deal where the Sharks came out smelling like roses.All Waddell has to do is announce he's accepting bids on Kovalchuk and the best deal gets him. Teams will be lining up and offering a lot.Were talking about the 2nd best natural goal-scorer in the league and could easily be the best with a little help.
The Lindros deal was different. A post prior has listed a lot of the in-prime stars that were dealt and how they were dealt. In reality, Atlanta doesn't have 29 other teams that they'll deal with. Most likely, it's around 10. Don Waddell may have a bad history dealing but he's not going to give a head start to any eastern conference team on re-signing Kovalchuk. Also, in the West, there are a lot of teams at or near cap, including the Sharks, that probably wouldn't be able to afford his services beyond next season.
The Ducks, Flames, Avs, Kings, Coyotes, Blues, and Canucks would be the most logical contenders considering their contracts at this point and who would be up at that time. Absolutely no team is going to pay the potentially high cost of acquiring Ilya Kovalchuk if they believe he will be a rental. And no team is going to be stupid enough to pay the trade cost without knowing if they'll have the cap space to keep him and not every Western team is capable of that even at that point down the road.
If he's purely a rental, you'll have about 20 teams interested in his services but his cost will be a lot less than what you believe. And the cost of multiple young NHL players for him is absolutely ridiculous in such a scenario.
Vermette + Volchenkov + prospect + 2 1sts I think would get it done, though Thrasher fans will immediately say that's too little and say he's worth 3 Heatleys
I'm not a Thrasher fan and I'd think it'd take 3 Heatleys...
Kovalchuk alone is worth pretty much every bit as Alexandre Ovechkin.
Proposing a trade at this point for Kovalchuk is ridiculous because there's a little under two years before his contract is up so making a play for an untouchable asset when they don't really benefit by trading him now is just pointless. It might change in the next off-season but I doubt it considering the history of all GM's in a similar boat. Also, I understand if you don't view Cheechoo highly because honestly, he's a 2nd or 3rd tier top line winger...somewhere between the 20th and 60th best wingers, however calling Milan Michalek overrated shows complete ignorance to the Sharks and specifically his game since he has started his career. Milan Michalek is one of the top two way top line wingers at his age in the league. There's more to playing hockey than scoring 30 or 40 goals. Watch his defensive ability, his backchecking, his stick work in his own zone, and his awareness. He is ahead of a great portion of the league's comparably aged players.
The Lindros deal was different. A post prior has listed a lot of the in-prime stars that were dealt and how they were dealt. In reality, Atlanta doesn't have 29 other teams that they'll deal with. Most likely, it's around 10. Don Waddell may have a bad history dealing but he's not going to give a head start to any eastern conference team on re-signing Kovalchuk. Also, in the West, there are a lot of teams at or near cap, including the Sharks, that probably wouldn't be able to afford his services beyond next season.
The Ducks, Flames, Avs, Kings, Coyotes, Blues, and Canucks would be the most logical contenders considering their contracts at this point and who would be up at that time. Absolutely no team is going to pay the potentially high cost of acquiring Ilya Kovalchuk if they believe he will be a rental. And no team is going to be stupid enough to pay the trade cost without knowing if they'll have the cap space to keep him and not every Western team is capable of that even at that point down the road.
If he's purely a rental, you'll have about 20 teams interested in his services but his cost will be a lot less than what you believe. And the cost of multiple young NHL players for him is absolutely ridiculous in such a scenario.
Purely a rental.For the sake of an argument lets say he's signs a 6yr contract extention or is willing to sign a 6yr one with the teams that trades for him.Now in this scenario the cost of multiple young NHL players for him is not near ridiculous as you claim.Now not wanting to give other teams in the East a headstart is prue crap talk.Do you really think that if the NYR offered a Gomez,Staal, another roster player ,a top prospect and drafft picks that Wadddell is going to say umm not trading him to the Rangers ,there in the East even if there giving us a can't refuse offer.Give your head a shake. And don't think that the Rangers couldn't or wouldn't offer that package. they don't hurt there team by trading those assets for Kovalchuk .They can now easily afford him after removing those assets and have there superstar tied up for at least 6 yrs if not longer exactly what the Rangers are longer for. And don't kid yourself if the Rangers arn't the one pulling the trigger there will be plenty of teams waiting in the lineup just to get a crack at him.Just because the Sharks won't be one of the teams in the lineup [ assuming by your demeaner-want him for nothing -not happening] having a shot at him it doesn't mean there won't be at least-we'll say 20 teams ready and willing to reconstrocture there team to get a bonifide superstar for the rest of his career.
Purely a rental.For the sake of an argument lets say he's signs a 6yr contract extention or is willing to sign a 6yr one with the teams that trades for him.Now in this scenario the cost of multiple young NHL players for him is not near ridiculous as you claim.Now not wanting to give other teams in the East a headstart is prue crap talk.Do you really think that if the NYR offered a Gomez,Staal, another roster player ,a top prospect and drafft picks that Wadddell is going to say umm not trading him to the Rangers ,there in the East even if there giving us a can't refuse offer.Give your head a shake. And don't think that the Rangers couldn't or wouldn't offer that package. they don't hurt there team by trading those assets for Kovalchuk .They can now easily afford him after removing those assets and have there superstar tied up for at least 6 yrs if not longer exactly what the Rangers are longer for. And don't kid yourself if the Rangers arn't the one pulling the trigger there will be plenty of teams waiting in the lineup just to get a crack at him.Just because the Sharks won't be one of the teams in the lineup [ assuming by your demeaner-want him for nothing -not happening] having a shot at him it doesn't mean there won't be at least-we'll say 20 teams ready and willing to reconstrocture there team to get a bonifide superstar for the rest of his career.
I never made the claim that the offer for a 6 year extended Kovalchuk would be ridiculous at a couple young NHL players. I made the claim that if he's a rental, it is wildly ridiculous.
As for the Rangers and whether the Thrashers would make such a trade, I would say no. Why? Because there's going to be at the most conservative estimate a handful of teams out West that would be interested and capable of taking him on plus trading the assets required to get Kovalchuk. So, if say San Jose, purely for example, offers something right around equal to a Rangers offer such as Cheechoo or Michalek, Vlasic, Goc, and draft picks/prospects as well for Kovalchuk, you don't think he'd opt to trade him West where he wouldn't have to see him beat his team repeatedly? Give your head a shake because he would be absolutely stupid to take an Eastern deal if there's a deal out West that's near equal to it.
Every team is pretty much capable of offering a lot of quantity in terms of players and cap numbers to equal up to a Kovalchuk but it leads to a humongous jam where you must replace those players with much less quality because more of your money is tied up to your top guys. Some teams can do that. Some teams can't or won't.
I never said I didn't want the Sharks to make a play for him. What I'm saying is that it's unlikely that it'll even get to the trading point and even more unlikely that they would part with the assets required to do so but they are probably more capable of doing so than the Rangers would be because they have a lot of young assets to deal if the GM wants.
But to assume that the Rangers would be the team to make the absolute best offer is very short-sighted. There are a handful of teams out West that can make just as good if not a better offer than the Rangers and if it's anywhere close to the best Eastern offer, they're going to take the West deal and it's as simple as that.
I think he was demonstrating the fact that star players don't get the huge returns everybody is expecting...
Exactly
Even Pronger, a Norris/Conn Smythe candidate on a great long term contract didn't return much of anything substantial, let alone the kind of return Thrasher fans seem to be expecting.
I'm not saying he's not worth a good return, quite the opposite actually, I do think he's worth a substantial return, I just think he's not going to garner that much himself.
