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Brad Park vs. Denis Potvin

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09-22-2008, 08:40 PM
  #1
SCORE4
 
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Brad Park vs. Denis Potvin

If not for Bobby Orr, Brad Park would have been awarded The Norris Trophy, I believe 5 times, and he finished second to Denis Potvin in voting once.

How would Park be rated overall if he'd actually been a Five or Six Time Norris winner?

I always thought Park and Potvin were a fairly close match up. Potvin does have an edge offensively, and way more championships, but if Orr had never been .... then what? The Rangers win at least one Cup, in 1972 and possibly 1974. (If they'd had Fotiu or someone to stand up to The Flyers.)

Where would Park rate with a couple championships? .... not to mention The Bruins in '79? ....

I remember the trade of Park and Ratelle for Esposito and Vadnais and some sports announcer claiming The Bruins now had 2 of the best 3 defencemen in The NHL That remark pissed me off, because to that point, Potvin hadn't really accomplished all that much. To me, at that time, Park was still clearly No.2.

If Park had won The Norris five times and had been a three time Stanley Cup champion, would he be rated at a higher level? If their situations had been reversed, Potvin likely would never have won A Norris, and Park would likely have won at least three. Could Park have carried The Islanders through their four Cup titles? Would Potvin have made the difference for The Rangers in '72 or '74?

Who would you choose for your team .... A prime Brad Park or a prime Denis Potvin?


Last edited by SCORE4: 09-22-2008 at 09:15 PM.
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09-22-2008, 09:39 PM
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Brad Park was a great defenseman, a great defenseman. He didnt win a Cup, but he is commonly talked about as the best to never have done that in his career. He had great playoff numbers as well, is playoff in '78 might be better than any playoff year Potvin took part in. Then again, Potvin was never a bad playoff performer and was never the reason why the Isles lost, and was a huge reason why they won too.

That being said when you compare regular seasons you still have to give Potvin the edge. Offensively he beats Park, and defensively he is probably the same, but if you gave him the edge I wouldnt care either. There is a reason that Park lost the Norris to Potvin in '78 and '76. Potvin was just better. Take away Orr and Park has three Norris Trophies. Same as Potvin. He was a cut below Potvin in '76 and '78. And I dont think that any season Park has in the early '70s was as good as Potvin in '76, '78 or '79 either.

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09-22-2008, 09:46 PM
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In all honesty I would take Park. I will be in the minority here for sure. It's just a style preference though. They were both fantastic. I've always felt Park was the smartest defensemen after Orr that I've seen. I think most people under rate him. As far as I'm concerned he's right there with Potvin and Robinson.

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09-22-2008, 10:42 PM
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Besides Bobby Orr and Brad Park, there wasn't much depth at defence during that 10 year period. Sure Jc Tremblay was pretty good, who else really?

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09-22-2008, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Besides Bobby Orr and Brad Park, there wasn't much depth at defence during that 10 year period. Sure Jc Tremblay was pretty good, who else really?
uhhhh, Salming? Savard? Robinson?

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09-22-2008, 11:04 PM
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Denis Potvin was the best defenseman I have seen in my time, so Potvin very easy.

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09-22-2008, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
uhhhh, Salming? Savard? Robinson?
Not to mention Guy Lapointe on top of that. It was a tough as nails era to win Norris trophies.

But in the end, I choose Potvin over Park. Both were superb, but Potvin was a shade over Park.

Both are top 10 all time.

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09-22-2008, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
uhhhh, Salming? Savard? Robinson?
from 1967-1976?

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09-23-2008, 06:31 AM
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I'd take prime Potvin.

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09-23-2008, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
from 1967-1976?
It was a transitional period for the most part between the greats of the 60's such as Pilote, Horton, Laperierre, Howlet, Bergman, Tremblay and the greats of the 70's such as Orr, Lapointe, Robinson, Savard, Park ect.

There was always great d-men in Orr's time, they were just a different group of players.

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09-23-2008, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
It was a transitional period for the most part between the greats of the 60's such as Pilote, Horton, Laperierre, Howlet, Bergman, Tremblay and the greats of the 70's such as Orr, Lapointe, Robinson, Savard, Park ect.

There was always great d-men in Orr's time, they were just a different group of players.
That pretty much covers it.

Jacques Laperriere was good.

Tremblay was an absolutely terrific defenseman. When the game opened up offensively, his numbers shot up as well. Keeping in mind that he was great even before that. 30 points was an excellent season for a Dman before Orr broke the game open. We can only imagine if he had stayed with that Habs squad. The big 4 would have been ridiculous beyond the big 3.

We all know how good Horton was.

I am pretty sure you meant Howell, not Howlet. Howell was a terrific Dman briefly, and good otherwise.

Bergman? Not one of the names I would have picked. Marcel Pronovost maybe, briefly albeit. As Briefly as Pilote.

Pat Stapleton was another very good Dman. Bill white was good, albeit more traditional a defender.

Guy Lapointe of course, which is around the time Savard, Robinson, Salming and Potvin were about to get going.

Yessir. Great competition.

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09-23-2008, 11:46 AM
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I think ushvinder has a point there in the sense that Park won 5 of his 7 allstar selections from 1970-1974. Apart from him and Orr, there wasn't a whole lot of standout competition in the all-time sense. There were other good defenders, but this was the era that guys like White, Stapleton, and Ashbee were making the allstar team. Potvin, Salming, and Robinson didn't make their mark until the second half of the decade.

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09-23-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I think ushvinder has a point there in the sense that Park won 5 of his 7 allstar selections from 1970-1974. Apart from him and Orr, there wasn't a whole lot of standout competition in the all-time sense. There were other good defenders, but this was the era that guys like White, Stapleton, and Ashbee were making the allstar team. Potvin, Salming, and Robinson didn't make their mark until the second half of the decade.
You don't think White and Stapleton were deserving of all-star teams? You're making it sound like these guys were chumps. They were excellent defensemen. Fantastic in their own end. Another guy that gets overlooked who I always thought was excellent was Joe Watson. One of those guys who new where to be. Excellent at reading the play in his own end and a pretty clean player too. Always seemed out of place on those Flyers teams.

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09-23-2008, 02:53 PM
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You don't think White and Stapleton were deserving of all-star teams? You're making it sound like these guys were chumps. They were excellent defensemen. Fantastic in their own end. Another guy that gets overlooked who I always thought was excellent was Joe Watson. One of those guys who new where to be. Excellent at reading the play in his own end and a pretty clean player too. Always seemed out of place on those Flyers teams.
I agree with you on most counts here.

Between 69-70 and 71-72, Laperriere and JC Tremblay were both still terrific. Both had an injury year in between, but both were great. especially Tremblay. White WAS a terrific traditional defender, and Stapleton was a great two way guy. Lapointe startedmaking his mark in 72-73 when he went runner up to Orr.

Watson was a great traditional defender. But that sadly started to mean less and less in Norris voting until Langway came along.

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09-23-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Not to mention Guy Lapointe on top of that. It was a tough as nails era to win Norris trophies.

But in the end, I choose Potvin over Park. Both were superb, but Potvin was a shade over Park.

Both are top 10 all time.
I agree but I do give it to Park. Here's what my top-10 list is..

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Ray Bourque
5. Denis Potvin
6. Red Kelly
7. Nicklas Lidstrom
8. Larry Robinson
9. Brad Park
10. Slava Fetisov

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09-23-2008, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I agree but I do give it to Park. Here's what my top-10 list is..

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Ray Bourque
5. Denis Potvin
6. Red Kelly
7. Nicklas Lidstrom
8. Larry Robinson
9. Brad Park
10. Slava Fetisov
Not a bad list at all. I'm the type of guy that puts Coffey at #9-10 though. Not a lot to dislike about an '80s/early '90s Coffey, yet we seem to forget that around here. Other than that I basically agree

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09-23-2008, 09:58 PM
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Not a bad list at all. I'm the type of guy that puts Coffey at #9-10 though. Not a lot to dislike about an '80s/early '90s Coffey, yet we seem to forget that around here. Other than that I basically agree
Coffey was actually #11 on my list. And it was truly between him and Fetisov for me. Went for the guy who was more of a defenseman...

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09-23-2008, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
You don't think White and Stapleton were deserving of all-star teams? You're making it sound like these guys were chumps. They were excellent defensemen. Fantastic in their own end. Another guy that gets overlooked who I always thought was excellent was Joe Watson. One of those guys who new where to be. Excellent at reading the play in his own end and a pretty clean player too. Always seemed out of place on those Flyers teams.
Do you place Stapleton, White, and Watson in the same stratosphere as Park and Potvin? My point was simply that Park wasn't dominating a legendary crop of defenders in that period. I'm not saying he couldn't have. Just that his competition for that runner-up-to-Orr spot wasn't as strong in those years as it was later on in his career. Obviously they were good players. But would Pat Stapleton and Bill White have made a combined 5 allstar teams in the late 70's up against Park, Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Savard, and Lapointe? Probably not. Again, excellent player, but I've never heard any clamoring for them to be put in the Hall.

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09-23-2008, 10:47 PM
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Gary Bergman is grossly underrated.

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09-23-2008, 11:14 PM
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Do you place Stapleton, White, and Watson in the same stratosphere as Park and Potvin? My point was simply that Park wasn't dominating a legendary crop of defenders in that period. I'm not saying he couldn't have. Just that his competition for that runner-up-to-Orr spot wasn't as strong in those years as it was later on in his career. Obviously they were good players. But would Pat Stapleton and Bill White have made a combined 5 allstar teams in the late 70's up against Park, Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Savard, and Lapointe? Probably not. Again, excellent player, but I've never heard any clamoring for them to be put in the Hall.
Guy Lapointe and JC Tremblay and Jacques Laperriere fit into this timeframe too though, not just Stapleton, White and Watson. And of course, well, Orr himself.

Laperriere is a bit weaker than the other two, but Lapointe and Tremblay would certainly have been getting all star selections at some point between those years. Lapointe racked up 3 second teams, and its highly likely Tremblay could have too.

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09-23-2008, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Guy Lapointe and JC Tremblay and Jacques Laperriere fit into this timeframe too though, not just Stapleton, White and Watson. And of course, well, Orr himself.

Laperriere is a bit weaker than the other two, but Lapointe and Tremblay would certainly have been getting all star selections at some point between those years. Lapointe racked up 3 second teams, and its highly likely Tremblay could have too.
Once again, I'm not saying there were no good players. But excluding the superhuman Bobby Orr, Potvin's competition in his prime was CLEARLY stronger than Park's. The last 70's and early 80's is arguably the strongest period for defenders ever.

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09-23-2008, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Do you place Stapleton, White, and Watson in the same stratosphere as Park and Potvin? My point was simply that Park wasn't dominating a legendary crop of defenders in that period. I'm not saying he couldn't have. Just that his competition for that runner-up-to-Orr spot wasn't as strong in those years as it was later on in his career. Obviously they were good players. But would Pat Stapleton and Bill White have made a combined 5 allstar teams in the late 70's up against Park, Potvin, Robinson, Salming, Savard, and Lapointe? Probably not. Again, excellent player, but I've never heard any clamoring for them to be put in the Hall.
Actually after re-reading your original post I apologize. You were quite diplomatic in the wording you used and for some reason I didn't see it that way the first time.

Good point about those guys probably not making the all star teams against Park, Potvin etc... But then again, it's entirely possible a guy like Lidstrom wouldn't have either.

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09-24-2008, 12:00 AM
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My thoughts on these two guys have been well documented; I have been critical of Potvin over Coffey, and once made the mistake of blasting Park and saying he was overrated.

To avoid any more flame wars, I'll make this short and sweet:

I'll take Potvin, because he was more of a scoring threat than Park.

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09-24-2008, 12:20 AM
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I'm going list-crazy:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Ray Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Viacheslav Fetisov
10. Paul Coffey
11. Chris Chelios
12. Pierre Pilote
13. Brad Park
14. Earl Seibert
15. King Clancy
16. Tim Horton
17. Scott Stevens
18. Al MacInnis
19. Brian Leetch
20. Borje Salming

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09-24-2008, 05:36 PM
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Most of you have made some very strong points .... If Orr was a 10 and Potvin a 9, then Park is probably a 8.8 .... close enough for me to agree on anyway ....

My personal top ten would be:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Ray Bourque
3. Denis Potvin
4. Brad Park
5. Serge Savard
6. Larry Robinson
7. Mark Howe
8. Scott Stevens
9. Guy Lapointe
10. Borje Salming

HM's to Brian Leetch and Paul Coffey

I prefer not to rate guys like Lidstrom and Chelios until they are actually finished, and I can't rate guys like Shore, Kelly or anyone else that I never actually saw play.

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