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Brad Park vs. Denis Potvin

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Old
09-24-2008, 07:10 PM
  #26
Dark Shadows
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Top 25

Bobby Orr
Eddie Shore
Doug Harvey
Raymond Bourque
Nicklas Lidstrom
Denis Potvin
Red Kelly
Larry Robinson
Viacheslav Fetisov
Brad Park
Chris Chelios
Paul Coffey
Pierre Pilote
Dit Clapper
King Clancy
Earl Seibert
Tim Horton
Bill Gadsby
Al Macinnis
Sprague Cleghorn
Borje Salming
Valeri Vasiliev
Rod Langway
Scott Stevens
Brian Leetch

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09-24-2008, 07:17 PM
  #27
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Good list .... except for .... where are Howe, Savard and Lapointe?

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Old
09-24-2008, 08:03 PM
  #28
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
Good list .... except for .... where are Howe, Savard and Lapointe?
Below all those mentioned. Savard is right after Leetch, and Howe is after Savard, but Black Jack Stewart is just ahead of Lapointe.

They have cases to be slightly higher if argued, but none of those 3 are even remotely close to top 10 material.

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09-24-2008, 08:30 PM
  #29
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Thornton, you are obviously a very sharp guy .... I've read your posts and really believe you know your stuff .... HOWEVER ....

I actually saw Al MacInnis play hundreds of times, and must say this ....

He was a great power play guy .... possessed one of the hardest shots in history .... AND .... was a terrible, terrible defensive liability ..... no toughness or aggression at all ....

I would take Savard, Lapointe or Howe way before MacInnis ....

Time to start a new thread I see ....


Last edited by SCORE4: 09-24-2008 at 10:08 PM.
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09-24-2008, 09:05 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
Thornton, you are obviously a very sharp guy .... I've read your posts and really believe you know your stuff .... HOWEVER ....

I actually saw Al MacInnis play hundreds of times, and must say this ....

He was a great power play guy .... possessed one of the hardest shots in history .... AND .... was a terrible, terrible defensive liability ..... no toughness or aggression at all ....

I would take Savard, Lapointe or Howe way before MacInnis ....

Time for a new thread I see ....
????
I strongly disagree with your assessment of Macinnis. He was very good on both ends of the ice. Not Ray Bourque, but certainly not Paul Coffey either.

He was extremely favored as a two way defenseman during the entire HOH top 100 voting by almost everyone who voted.

Here was the discussion in which he was voted in
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=520754


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 09-24-2008 at 09:14 PM.
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Old
09-24-2008, 09:27 PM
  #31
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This is all about personal opinion .... if you agree, great .... if not, oh well .... no hard feelings ....

I always put MacInnis in the same category as the guy he was traded for once-upon-a-time .... Phil Housley .... great on offence, but timid and weak defensively .... would have taken Gary Suter over MacInnis back in The Flames day ....

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09-24-2008, 10:25 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
This is all about personal opinion .... if you agree, great .... if not, oh well .... no hard feelings ....

I always put MacInnis in the same category as the guy he was traded for once-upon-a-time .... Phil Housley .... great on offence, but timid and weak defensively .... would have taken Gary Suter over MacInnis back in The Flames day ....
Friendly debate is good for us

I thought Macinnis was good defensively early in his career when compared to guys like Coffey and Housley, and terrific late in his career. I liked Macinnis over Suter most of the time. I noticed you had Stevens in your top 10(Which is ok with me), but I just find that Stevens had to sacrifice his offensive game almost completely in order for him to achieve his Defensive excellence.

When I see Howe in the top 10, I am puzzled. Now, I have the highest respect for Howe, but could you elaborate on this pick? Howe was Dynamite and I am elated that he is getting some respect(I feel he is generally underrated), but he only has 3 first team all star selections. His 3 Norris runner up's are admirable, but Macinnis has 3 Runner up's and a Norris win, along with 4 first team selections and 3 second team. Granted I would match up Howe's 85-86 year against Macinnis best year, but Macinnis has the prime longevity and consistency along with the comparable peak.

Ill just find a few posts on him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's a stats-based case for Al MacInnis. Even-strength +/- data is below, with analysis to follow.

Definitions:

Ratio-ON is the ratio of ES goals scored for over ES goals scored against when the player is on the ice.
Ratio-OFF is the ratio of ES goals scored for over ES goals scored against when the player is off the ice.
$Ratio is Ratio-ON over Ratio-OFF, so it compares the teams ES performance when the player was on the ice to when the player was off the ice.

Also, the stats are taken from +/- data, so they aren't exactly ES, they have shorthanded goals included in the data also. MacInnis played both PP and SH, so I don't think that should change anything.

Even Strength Performance vs Team for Al MacInnis

Season Team GP Ratio-ON Ratio-OFF $Ratio All-star voting
1983-84 Calgary Flames 51 1.00 0.98 1.02  
1984-85 Calgary Flames 67 1.10 1.37 0.80  
1985-86 Calgary Flames 77 1.75 1.06 1.64  
1986-87 Calgary Flames 79 1.27 1.03 1.23 4th (2nd team)
1987-88 Calgary Flames 80 1.17 1.48 0.79 11th
1988-89 Calgary Flames 79 1.57 1.83 0.86 3rd (2nd team)
1989-90 Calgary Flames 79 1.26 1.36 0.92 2nd (1st team)
1990-91 Calgary Flames 78 1.70 1.20 1.42 2nd (1st team)
1991-92 Calgary Flames 72 1.21 0.99 1.23 6th
1992-93 Calgary Flames 50 1.36 1.15 1.18  
1993-94 Calgary Flames 75 1.67 1.12 1.49 3rd (2nd team)
1994-95 St. Louis Blues 32 1.95 1.49 1.31  
1995-96 St. Louis Blues 82 1.08 0.75 1.44  
1996-97 St. Louis Blues 72 1.03 1.00 1.03  
1997-98 St. Louis Blues 71 1.10 1.35 0.81 9th
1998-99 St. Louis Blues 82 1.58 0.82 1.93 1st (1st team)
1999-00 St. Louis Blues 61 1.63 1.48 1.10 8th
2000-01 St. Louis Blues 59 1.61 1.16 1.38 7th
2001-02 St. Louis Blues 71 1.06 1.38 0.77  
2002-03 St. Louis Blues 80 1.37 1.00 1.37 2nd (1st team)

Al MacInnis was considered to be a top defenceman in the NHL for over 15 years, with his first postseason All-star selection coming in 1987 and his last in 2003. For most of this time, basically from 1990 on, he was regularly an impact player at even strength, performing well above his team. Even in the late 1980s he was never a minus player, but he was on a great team and didn't stand out as much at even strength.

I think MacInnis has been underrated in his all-round game. He was much more than just a shot. All-star voters thought so as well, as he had 4 1st-Team and 3 2nd-Team selections during a very competitive era for defencemen. He won one Norris in 1999. He also finished a close 2nd to Bourque in 1991 (257-228 in points) and to Lidstrom in 2003 (560-486 in points, with almost all voters putting him at least 2nd.) He was also runner up in 1990

Of course, MacInnis's calling card is his shot, so let's look at his power play performance.

Definitions:

PPP = power play points, PPP/G = power play points per game
Rank (D) is MacInnis's rank in PPP/G among defencemen who played at least 50 games for that year
Leader is the defenceman who led in PPP/G for that year, just for a little context

The final two columns show the team PP performance, with the PP% and league rank

Season GP PPP PPP/G Rank (D) Leader Team% Rank
1983-84  21.5 12
1984-85  25.0 3
1985-86  24.7 4
1986-87  25.2 1
1987-88 80 46 0.58 2 Coffey 28.5 1
1988-89 79 45 0.57 5 Coffey 24.9 2
1989-90 79 54 0.68 1 MacInnis 27.7 1
1990-91 78 63 0.81 1 MacInnis 23.7 1
1991-92 72 48 0.67 2 Housley 21.0 5
1992-93 50 34 0.68 2 Housley 19.0 14
1993-94 75 46 0.61 4 Bourque 21.2 4
1994-95 32 12 0.38 10 Coffey 16.4 16
1995-96 82 34 0.41 17 Schneider 16.5 18
1996-97 72 17 0.24 20 Ozolinsh 15.3 15
1997-98 71 26 0.37 6 Ozolinsh 16.8 9
1998-99 82 37 0.45 4 Olausson 20.3 3
1999-00 61 19 0.31 12 Bourque 17.8 6
2000-01 59 35 0.59 1 MacInnis 18.7 9
2001-02 71 22 0.31 10 Lidstrom 17.4 7
2002-03 80 37 0.46 1 MacInnis 20.5 4

MacInnis was among the best defencemen on the power play from 1988-1994, and probably the best in 89-91. He actually led all players in PPP/G in 1991.

Unfortunately PPP aren't available before 1988. However, given Calgary's excellent power play during this time, and MacInnis's offensive success, it's likely that he would have scored very highly.

MacInnis's PP numbers dropped after he left Calgary's incredible power play, but he bounced back in the late 90s and early 00s as one of the best power play quarterbacks leading St. Louis's consistently good power play.

Playoffs

As the numbers I posted earlier showed, MacInnis stepped up his offensive performance in the playoffs. Never was this more evident than in 1989, when he scored 31 points, led the Flames to the Cup, and won the Conn Smythe.

Summary

MacInnis was a top offensive producer right from the time he broke into the league, leading the Calgary PP to be the best in the league. By 1989, he had developed into an even strength force as well, as he led the Flames to the Cup and won the Conn Smythe. He was a 1st team All-Star in 1990 and 1991, and continued to be a top ES and PP performer until he left Calgary in 1994.

MacInnis's accolades dropped off in the mid to late 90s. Part of this was that he had trouble playing a full season, missing 10-20 games in many seasons. However, he was still a force when he was on the ice, and in 1999 he played all 82 games, went +33 on a St Louis team that was only +14 overall, and won the Norris trophy. He continued to play well until his final season in 2003, when he was a 1st team All-Star at the age of 39.

I think MacInnis's consistent excellence and sometime greatness deserves recognition at this point. The main knock against him may be his in-season durability in the second half of his career. I don't care about that too much, as he was a great player on the ice and was always there for the playoffs.

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09-24-2008, 10:50 PM
  #33
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Mark Howe was a great player who was simply a cut above most. His effortless skating style, great shot, better passer .... he saw the entire ice surface and made everything look too easy. Easily could have won The Norris a few times. I think if his name had been Mark Smith, he'd have been that much better and I think he belongs here ....

This list is strictly my own opinion .... I'm not saying these are without a doubt the top ten ever .... just what I've seen and what I think.

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09-24-2008, 11:43 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post

I actually saw Al MacInnis play hundreds of times, and must say this ....

He was a great power play guy .... possessed one of the hardest shots in history .... AND .... was a terrible, terrible defensive liability ..... no toughness or aggression at all ....

I would take Savard, Lapointe or Howe way before MacInnis ....

Time to start a new thread I see ....
I like you already.
Completely agree about MacInnis. I don't think he was as bad defensively as Coffey or Housley but boy did he make a lot of dumb mistakes. Used to watch him and shake my head.
Fantastic on the powerplay, weak in his own end.
I would also take all three of those guys you mentioned ahead of MacInnis as well.

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10-05-2008, 07:27 PM
  #35
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intersting post. i always figured park was second to orr. still do. i would say park edges potvin overall

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10-12-2008, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
If not for Bobby Orr, Brad Park would have been awarded The Norris Trophy, I believe 5 times, and he finished second to Denis Potvin in voting once.

How would Park be rated overall if he'd actually been a Five or Six Time Norris winner?

I always thought Park and Potvin were a fairly close match up. Potvin does have an edge offensively, and way more championships, but if Orr had never been .... then what? The Rangers win at least one Cup, in 1972 and possibly 1974. (If they'd had Fotiu or someone to stand up to The Flyers.)

Where would Park rate with a couple championships? .... not to mention The Bruins in '79? ....

I remember the trade of Park and Ratelle for Esposito and Vadnais and some sports announcer claiming The Bruins now had 2 of the best 3 defencemen in The NHL That remark pissed me off, because to that point, Potvin hadn't really accomplished all that much. To me, at that time, Park was still clearly No.2.

If Park had won The Norris five times and had been a three time Stanley Cup champion, would he be rated at a higher level? If their situations had been reversed, Potvin likely would never have won A Norris, and Park would likely have won at least three. Could Park have carried The Islanders through their four Cup titles? Would Potvin have made the difference for The Rangers in '72 or '74?

Who would you choose for your team .... A prime Brad Park or a prime Denis Potvin?
Give me Potvin by a slight edge. Both would be among the 10 best defensemen ever to play the game. But like you said lots of good defensemen in the '70s. Not only Orr, Potvin and Park, but Larry Robinson, Borje Salming, Serge Savard as well.

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10-12-2008, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
Mark Howe was a great player who was simply a cut above most. His effortless skating style, great shot, better passer .... he saw the entire ice surface and made everything look too easy. Easily could have won The Norris a few times. I think if his name had been Mark Smith, he'd have been that much better and I think he belongs here ....

This list is strictly my own opinion .... I'm not saying these are without a doubt the top ten ever .... just what I've seen and what I think.
I always thought Mark Howe was overrated. He wasn't close to a Rod Langway, Coffey or Bourque of his era.

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10-12-2008, 06:22 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCORE4 View Post
Mark Howe was a great player who was simply a cut above most. His effortless skating style, great shot, better passer .... he saw the entire ice surface and made everything look too easy. Easily could have won The Norris a few times. I think if his name had been Mark Smith, he'd have been that much better and I think he belongs here ....

This list is strictly my own opinion .... I'm not saying these are without a doubt the top ten ever .... just what I've seen and what I think.
Howe was no whiz in the defensive zone when in Hartford. He was encouraged to rush the puck because he was so good offensively and The Whale needed him to create offense. In Philly he really learned to play D and was excellent teamed with Brad McCrimmon all those (5?) years. In 85-86 they were +85 and +83 respectively. The next season +57 and +45. But when McCrimmon was then traded to Clagary, Howe's +/- dropped to a +23, no longer tops on the team. McCrimmon was a +48 and +43 his next 2 years in Calgary. Howe was never close to as good again as he was with McCrimmon. Not saying McCrimmon was nearly as good as Howe. But this looks like a case of a player really benefitting from being matched up with a perfect partner for him.

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10-12-2008, 08:01 PM
  #39
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Howe was no whiz in the defensive zone when in Hartford. He was encouraged to rush the puck because he was so good offensively and The Whale needed him to create offense. In Philly he really learned to play D and was excellent teamed with Brad McCrimmon all those (5?) years. In 85-86 they were +85 and +83 respectively. The next season +57 and +45. But when McCrimmon was then traded to Calgary, Howe's +/- dropped to a +23, no longer tops on the team. McCrimmon was a +48 and +43 his next 2 years in Calgary. Howe was never close to as good again as he was with McCrimmon. Not saying McCrimmon was nearly as good as Howe. But this looks like a case of a player really benefitting from being matched up with a perfect partner for him.
McCrimmon is one of the more underrated players. He is among the best defensive forwards of all time. However, +/- is a terrible way to judge each player. Its such an unreliable team first statistic.

The Flames were one of the best teams in the league at the time on both ends of the ice, and they outscored the oilers both those years.

Howe's defense was phenomenal. His +/- dropping the next year had to do with many players taking a dive the next year on the Flyers, or not being there altogether. Their best scorer Kerr was out, along with their best defensive Dman McCrimmon of course, and as a team, they fell below league average

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10-12-2008, 08:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Howe was no whiz in the defensive zone when in Hartford. He was encouraged to rush the puck because he was so good offensively and The Whale needed him to create offense. In Philly he really learned to play D and was excellent teamed with Brad McCrimmon all those (5?) years. In 85-86 they were +85 and +83 respectively. The next season +57 and +45. But when McCrimmon was then traded to Clagary, Howe's +/- dropped to a +23, no longer tops on the team. McCrimmon was a +48 and +43 his next 2 years in Calgary. Howe was never close to as good again as he was with McCrimmon. Not saying McCrimmon was nearly as good as Howe. But this looks like a case of a player really benefitting from being matched up with a perfect partner for him.
howe was still close to the team lead in '88, just 5 behind the leader.

probably a bigger factor was that philadelphia's offense was significantly weaker in '88.

'86: 335g; 4th in scoring (1st in wales)
'87: 310g; 4th in scoring (1st in wales)
'88: 292g; 10th in scoring (7th in wales)
'89: 307g; 8th in scoring (4th in wales)

howe led the flyers in +/- in '83, before mccrimmon was on the flyers. paired with glen cochrane.

he also led the flyers in +/- in '90, after mccrimmon was gone, and despite the fact that he only played 40 games. paired with kjell samuelsson.

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10-13-2008, 04:33 PM
  #41
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McCrimmon is one of the more underrated players. He is among the best defensive forwards of all time. However, +/- is a terrible way to judge each player. Its such an unreliable team first statistic.

The Flames were one of the best teams in the league at the time on both ends of the ice, and they outscored the oilers both those years.

Howe's defense was phenomenal. His +/- dropping the next year had to do with many players taking a dive the next year on the Flyers, or not being there altogether. Their best scorer Kerr was out, along with their best defensive Dman McCrimmon of course, and as a team, they fell below league average
True most of the time. But in 85-86, the next closes player on the Flyers had a +28.
That makes their +85 and +83 respectively ungodly.

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10-13-2008, 04:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
True most of the time. But in 85-86, the next closes player on the Flyers had a +28.
That makes their +85 and +83 respectively ungodly.
Oh yes. I just meant between players on different teams.

If you have a very large +/- over teammates, it usually means you are doing something right. However it is not always accurate. Robinson beat Savard in +/- a time or two, and Savard was always better defensively

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