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Old
09-30-2008, 08:04 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Both need to get stronger physically and defensively imo.
I like Weber I really do and I was impressed by his preseason so far. But how come nobody talks about how Weber has been defensively so far? We are thrilled by his work on the PP and how offensively he sees the game and that's fine. But if the kid is sloted by some as our new #4, he will play against bigger, smarter, and really skilled NHL players day in day out. I just don't think he's ready to do that. Was outmuscled and taken out of position, losing the puck when rushed in more than one occasion by what I've seen and what we've heard. Let him develop 1 full year in the AHL and I don't see why we should forget about O'Byrne just because a guy is the new flavour of the week, with all due respect to the work Weber has done. We'll see more how he's made of defensively this week. 'Cause again, we're not talking about a #7 PP specialist but a #4 that will log significant minutes....unless people want him to match him with Bouillon or Gorges.....which we shouldn't.

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09-30-2008, 08:56 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Yes he does.
I guess that's not relevant to making the team as a d man, but maybe doesn't help him making it as a specialist. I suppose you could flip flop with Markov but I don't see the point. A left shooter has to play the right point.

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09-30-2008, 09:00 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
why the facepalm?
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Originally Posted by L'abstrait View Post
Bah! I don't think Carbonneau really takes advice from la Zone or any other media outlet anyways, so why bother? It's just fantasy talk, entertainment.
I know how they work. Once they start getting fixated on a player making a team, they'll do anything to rip a player they feel is in his place (O'Byrne). Like snake said, flavor of the week. The average joe in the public listen and since the ''experts'' say it, they start buying it. And then when Weber inevitably gets sent down, it will be a big whinefest. Just annoying.

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Originally Posted by znk View Post
Anyway he talked about it on CKAC this afternoon. Mainly when the question was "If you are Carbo who plays on the PP with Markov." He said Weber. Then he refined his statement by saying he would be usefull on the 2nd PP unit where you dont want a forward playing the point because the penalty is about to end. He made the comparison with Sergei Kostitsyn saying that his addition to the lineup gave more options to Carboneau and he felt Weber could do the same but he cautioned that there is still much to be seen cause he hasnt played real nhl lineups yet. But anyway he gave him his best rating of all the prospects at camp. Considering he's seen all the games and how I usually trust his analysis I'll go with what he says.
There's nothing wrong with what he said, except that it seemed he fail to mention Sergei Kostitsyn went to the minors after a camp that was very comparable to Weber's. That's the big thing to me.

Starting Weber right from the start of the year is NOT what is right for his development. How many defenceman come out of junior and go straight to the NHL? On top of that, Weber would basically only be kept for the PP, so he'd be playing 10-15 minutes a game. I'd rather see him play 20-25 minutes in all situation for the Dogs.

On top of that, if Weber plays an accrued season this year, he's a UFA at age 26 instead of 27.

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09-30-2008, 09:04 AM
  #79
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While I do like what I have seen, this season...Probably not, unless he has a great start in Hamilton and gets called up because of an injury. Next year is very possible IMO.

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Old
09-30-2008, 09:11 AM
  #80
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Hamrlik is already injured... if he misses games...

Markov Komisarek
Bouillon O'Byrne
Gorges VW



Ok, we will probably get Brisebois in that slot.

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09-30-2008, 09:13 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I know how they work. Once they start getting fixated on a player making a team, they'll do anything to rip a player they feel is in his place (O'Byrne). Like snake said, flavor of the week. The average joe in the public listen and since the ''experts'' say it, they start buying it. And then when Weber inevitably gets sent down, it will be a big whinefest. Just annoying.



There's nothing wrong with what he said, except that it seemed he fail to mention Sergei Kostitsyn went to the minors after a camp that was very comparable to Weber's. That's the big thing to me.

Starting Weber right from the start of the year is NOT what is right for his development. How many defenceman come out of junior and go straight to the NHL? On top of that, Weber would basically only be kept for the PP, so he'd be playing 10-15 minutes a game. I'd rather see him play 20-25 minutes in all situation for the Dogs.

On top of that, if Weber plays an accrued season this year, he's a UFA at age 26 instead of 27.
I agree, Weber should spend at least 2-3 months in the AHL. But by the time December and January comes along, we might think of trading Bouillon (oh, I really like him, just trying to be pragmatic about it) if Weber is up to the task, unless they would both fit under the maximum 23 player roster. Then, we would keep the 2nd pairing of Hammer-OB, and have the third pairing of Gorges and Weber, and use Weber on either the first or second PP wave, while having Markov-Komi, and Gorges/Hammer-OB on the PK waves.

I think the D squad would be more versatile with Weber instead of Bouillon (when Weber will have gained some experience, mind you) as we don't have right handed offensive minded Dman, except for Breezer, and well, Breezer is not what he used to be on the point.

As for the bolded part, I thought that as soon as the player had a pro contract and played pro (either NHL or AHL), it already counted for the number of years for FA eligibility, but I might be mistaken.

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09-30-2008, 09:15 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I know how they work. Once they start getting fixated on a player making a team, they'll do anything to rip a player they feel is in his place (O'Byrne). Like snake said, flavor of the week. The average joe in the public listen and since the ''experts'' say it, they start buying it. And then when Weber inevitably gets sent down, it will be a big whinefest. Just annoying.



There's nothing wrong with what he said, except that it seemed he fail to mention Sergei Kostitsyn went to the minors after a camp that was very comparable to Weber's. That's the big thing to me.

Starting Weber right from the start of the year is NOT what is right for his development. How many defenceman come out of junior and go straight to the NHL? On top of that, Weber would basically only be kept for the PP, so he'd be playing 10-15 minutes a game. I'd rather see him play 20-25 minutes in all situation for the Dogs.

On top of that, if Weber plays an accrued season this year, he's a UFA at age 26 instead of 27.


Did you hear Gord Miller on Melnick's show yesterday ? He dropped by the studio on his way to McGuire's for dinner. He was talking about the similarities in Mtl-Detroit in that Mtl is starting to build some organizational continuity and a conservative approach to development. He was saying that entry level contracts and ufa status play a significant role in roster decsions. Once your base is solid, you have to look at prospects in terms of getting max. value out of them in terms of service time.

He had some interesting points, esp. regarding Komisarek.

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09-30-2008, 09:16 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I know how they work. Once they start getting fixated on a player making a team, they'll do anything to rip a player they feel is in his place (O'Byrne). Like snake said, flavor of the week. The average joe in the public listen and since the ''experts'' say it, they start buying it. And then when Weber inevitably gets sent down, it will be a big whinefest. Just annoying.



There's nothing wrong with what he said, except that it seemed he fail to mention Sergei Kostitsyn went to the minors after a camp that was very comparable to Weber's. That's the big thing to me.

Starting Weber right from the start of the year is NOT what is right for his development. How many defenceman come out of junior and go straight to the NHL? On top of that, Weber would basically only be kept for the PP, so he'd be playing 10-15 minutes a game. I'd rather see him play 20-25 minutes in all situation for the Dogs.

On top of that, if Weber plays an accrued season this year, he's a UFA at age 26 instead of 27.
He also said all of this on CKAC. He was conflicted.

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09-30-2008, 09:21 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Maitz View Post
I would be really surprise if he plays some games this year for the Habs , he is going to Hamilton this year. Hope he will plays on top 2 pairing and see some PP action. I don't think the Habs will call him up this year, Valentenko and Carle are ahead of him in depth chart.
I don't believe in your depth chart anyway. If a young player plays really good in the AHL, he will be call-up. Weber's now ahead of Carle and Valentenko.

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09-30-2008, 09:32 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post

Did you hear Gord Miller on Melnick's show yesterday ? He dropped by the studio on his way to McGuire's for dinner. He was talking about the similarities in Mtl-Detroit in that Mtl is starting to build some organizational continuity and a conservative approach to development. He was saying that entry level contracts and ufa status play a significant role in roster decsions. Once your base is solid, you have to look at prospects in terms of getting max. value out of them in terms of service time.

He had some interesting points, esp. regarding Komisarek.
Heard all of that part while coming home on the bus.

His point about Detroit and their prospects was really interesting...Detroit is likely going to be sending Darren Helm down, DESPITE the fact he looked good in the playoffs last year. But their thinking is: next year Helm will be in the final year of his entry level deal. So if he makes their team next fall, he'll have one year of full NHL experience and it won't cost all that much to re-sign in the summer of 2010. If he had 2-3 years, it would cost a lot more.

I think he was flat out wrong on Komisarek though. Detroit would re-sign him without a doubt since he's a homegrown star.

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09-30-2008, 09:43 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jaydee96 View Post
Watching RIS, Renaud Lavoie said Weber does not want to be called Veber.
He wants his name pronounced a l'americane!
Hey, I just noticed you became a mod. Congrats!

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09-30-2008, 09:45 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Heard all of that part while coming home on the bus.

His point about Detroit and their prospects was really interesting...Detroit is likely going to be sending Darren Helm down, DESPITE the fact he looked good in the playoffs last year. But their thinking is: next year Helm will be in the final year of his entry level deal. So if he makes their team next fall, he'll have one year of full NHL experience and it won't cost all that much to re-sign in the summer of 2010. If he had 2-3 years, it would cost a lot more.

I think he was flat out wrong on Komisarek though. Detroit would re-sign him without a doubt since he's a homegrown star.
You have to wonder about the game Detroit plays here because Helm looked pretty good. Players clearly good enough being sent down, sounds like the 50's, pre union.

Maybe we understood different things re Komisarek, Miller was saying that if it appears that #8 will have a lineup of teams willing to spend, sometimes as much as it hurts, yoiu have to walk away. Spending more than 5 for a damn who doesn't put up points is tough. I tend to think beyond the points but you have to belive there's a chart somewhere with speculative numbers on it.

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09-30-2008, 09:52 AM
  #88
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I'd be shocked if Weber makes the team...

There's no need to rush him right now, even if he's showing he's capable. The only reason the Habs would be keeping him would be for PP purposes and I think the PP is the last of the Habs concerns.

It's great that Weber is having a strong camp because it now gives Gaieny more options. Instead of maybe having to wait until next training camp for one of Weber, Valentenko, Carle to assume a role, now Gainey knows that Weber with a bit more seasoning might afford him the luxury of trading a guy like Bouillon during the season

It's hard enough for highly touted junior defensman to step right into the NHL, so some time wouldn't hurt Weber

I think were making a larger issue out of this than need be...I don't see how the Habs are going to start the season with both Weber & O'Byrne in the lineup. Not with so much on the line

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09-30-2008, 10:18 AM
  #89
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Maybe we understood different things re Komisarek, Miller was saying that if it appears that #8 will have a lineup of teams willing to spend, sometimes as much as it hurts, yoiu have to walk away. Spending more than 5 for a damn who doesn't put up points is tough. I tend to think beyond the points but you have to belive there's a chart somewhere with speculative numbers on it.
I think we heard the same part. What I don't agree with was the way he seemed to be indicating Detroit would view Komisarek as a player they could walk away from if the price was too high.

Time and time again Detroit has shown that their philosophy is two fold - 1: you keep your homegrown stars as they grew up in the organization, know what to expect and have the Red Wings logo tatooed on their butt and 2: you build your defence first and foremost, even if it costs a lot (Detroit is spending 20 M on the cap for Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart, the Habs can certainly spend 16-17 M for Markov, Komisarek and Hamrlik).

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09-30-2008, 11:06 AM
  #90
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I know a lot of posters won't be able to handle this thought, but his good camp and current hyping may also help his trade value at the deadline if in fact there is a serious move to be made for that elusive final piece. As good as he looks, if you take him out of the current defensemen prospects, we still have a lot of good ones.

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09-30-2008, 11:29 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I think we heard the same part. What I don't agree with was the way he seemed to be indicating Detroit would view Komisarek as a player they could walk away from if the price was too high.

Time and time again Detroit has shown that their philosophy is two fold - 1: you keep your homegrown stars as they grew up in the organization, know what to expect and have the Red Wings logo tatooed on their butt and 2: you build your defence first and foremost, even if it costs a lot (Detroit is spending 20 M on the cap for Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart, the Habs can certainly spend 16-17 M for Markov, Komisarek and Hamrlik).
My guess is that Gainey will offer Komisarek (and all the others) exactly what he his reasonable value is. Which will be a lot less than what he could get on the free agent market from irresponsible GMs. And based on prior experiences (Markov and AKostitsyn) he will take the 5 million contract here while knowing he could get 7 elsewhere.

Komisarek looks like a reasonable guy, understanding that sometimes huge contracts are not that huge in the long run - see the Schneiders and Khabibulins of this league. However, should he choose the Souray route (I know this is my real value but I can get a lot more elsewhere) I'm confident that Gainey will not follow and will go to plan B.

Out of the 4 Wings defenders you mentioned, which one is overpaid ? And would they not get more from some other team then what they are paid now?


Last edited by Newhabfan: 09-30-2008 at 11:37 AM.
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09-30-2008, 12:21 PM
  #92
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Out of the 4 Wings defenders you mentioned, which one is overpaid ? And would they not get more from some other team then what they are paid now?
None. And yes, they would get more.

Lidstrom is signed to a very solid cap hit (7.5 M or so), so since he's the best D in the league and their captain, they can slot everyone below him on the cap. Rafalski was brought in as a UFA as the #2 guy at 6 M, then the 2nd pairing guys Kronwall (homegrown and signed before he emerged) and Stuart (traded for and then re-signed) at 3.5 M each. All fair contracts, mainly because Lidstrom's signed to a good deal himself and everyone falls in line below that.

It can be kind of similar here. The Habs have Markov (homegrown) on a very solid deal at 5.75 M per, so they can make it clear no D will get more than him since he's the #1 (even Komisarek would admit that). Hamrlik as the UFA pickup and co-#2 at slightly under that at 5.5 M, then Komisarek, the other co-#2, can fit in somewhere between 4.5-5.5 M.


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09-30-2008, 12:32 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I think we heard the same part. What I don't agree with was the way he seemed to be indicating Detroit would view Komisarek as a player they could walk away from if the price was too high.

Time and time again Detroit has shown that their philosophy is two fold - 1: you keep your homegrown stars as they grew up in the organization, know what to expect and have the Red Wings logo tatooed on their butt and 2: you build your defence first and foremost, even if it costs a lot (Detroit is spending 20 M on the cap for Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart, the Habs can certainly spend 16-17 M for Markov, Komisarek and Hamrlik).
OK, I get you. Well, it's a tough call, Komisarek is one of those guys that is worth more than point totals, shotblocks and hits. There's always someone ready to open their wallet for a guy like that, and there's always players ready to stay where they're happy, Chris Phillips for example. So, it'll be interesting to follow, as a fan, he's the type of guy I want to play his entire careeer here, but I'm not in charge of building a team inside of cap retsraints so....

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09-30-2008, 03:33 PM
  #94
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Yep. Being Swiss I can also tell you that depending on the Swiss-German dialect one speaks it'll be anything from veber, vebber to vaebr, etc

Anyhoo, glad he sticks with the North-American pronunciation of I guess Webber. Otherwise, we end up with another Streit/Straight/Street discussion...
Yeah that whole "street" thing was something

For the record I would probably pronounce his name (phonetically)

sh try t

Weber strikes me as being a "Vay ber". But as you say that can vary by region and dialect. And if he wants to be called "Web ber" it would probably be easier for everybody

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09-30-2008, 03:35 PM
  #95
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OK, I get you. Well, it's a tough call, Komisarek is one of those guys that is worth more than point totals, shotblocks and hits. There's always someone ready to open their wallet for a guy like that, and there's always players ready to stay where they're happy, Chris Phillips for example. So, it'll be interesting to follow, as a fan, he's the type of guy I want to play his entire careeer here, but I'm not in charge of building a team inside of cap retsraints so....
Komi is too good to bundle off in some trade. You need to keep the heirlooms and get rid of the kitsch

I agree. As a fan he is the type of guy I like to see as a life long Hab if that creature still exists anywhere

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09-30-2008, 04:52 PM
  #96
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I don't understand the rush a lot of posters have at rushing prospects, if it's not Chipchura, it's MaxPac, if not him Weber... some even talked about Subban...

I mean, when we sucked and had useless ***** like Ward, Sundstrom, Dackell, etc. I wanted the team to rush young players... because the team couldn't be worse with them than without team...

But now, the habs are one of the best team in the league, they've got an excellent lineup, with excellent role players (Lapierre, Begin, Kosto, Laraque, Gorges...even Brisebois) Why change that?

All rookies (including Chips) make rookie mistakes, like a bad turnover in his zone or not covering his man... while veterans (including Lapierre... for his bashers) do it a lot less... I hate loosing a game because of small mistakes by role players... let the young guys polished their games in Hamilton and be ready to help this team win...as role players.

Yes, Weber, MaxPac, Maxwell and even Chips are more spectacular and have better upside than most of the veteran role players but they're too risky for the role Carbo ask of them and the importance of every game for a team who wants to win it all...

Let them develop in Hamilton, get recall for some games to either replace an injured regular of add some pep to the team if they struggle, but now I just don't see any reason to rush any of the rookies...

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09-30-2008, 07:06 PM
  #97
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Geez ! how old is Carle ? 20 ? Just because Weber got few good games during the pre-season , doesn't mean at all that it's the end for Carl ...
My point is that there are better prospect defenceman coming to hamilton next year and If Carle doesn't do something this season he will be passed by by guys like MC Donough, Emelin, Korneev, Valentenko, Weber etc. These guys are better prospects than Carle. Carle does not possess a great shot for an offensive D man that is not a good thing. Really Carle is a decent prospect, and may still prove to be a good NHL'er but i see better guys on the horizon and in front of him now.

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09-30-2008, 07:08 PM
  #98
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This kid looks great, absolutely great. Looking like a steal!

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09-30-2008, 09:37 PM
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He had a very tough night against the Red Wings

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09-30-2008, 09:59 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I like Weber I really do and I was impressed by his preseason so far. But how come nobody talks about how Weber has been defensively so far? We are thrilled by his work on the PP and how offensively he sees the game and that's fine. But if the kid is sloted by some as our new #4, he will play against bigger, smarter, and really skilled NHL players day in day out. I just don't think he's ready to do that. Was outmuscled and taken out of position, losing the puck when rushed in more than one occasion by what I've seen and what we've heard. Let him develop 1 full year in the AHL and I don't see why we should forget about O'Byrne just because a guy is the new flavour of the week, with all due respect to the work Weber has done. We'll see more how he's made of defensively this week. 'Cause again, we're not talking about a #7 PP specialist but a #4 that will log significant minutes....unless people want him to match him with Bouillon or Gorges.....which we shouldn't.
I agree, though my assessment is probably a little more critical. I haven't been thrilled by him so far. From what I've seen, the reports of his great camp are somewhat exaggerated. It's obvious he has some good offensive skills, but there's no way he's ready to be a top 6 NHL defenceman yet.

He's got some nice upside, but he's still just a prospect. At this point, I wouldn't put him ahead of Carle and Valentenko. One full year in the AHL is very valuable in terms of learning little things like timing and positioning, little things that get exposed at the NHL level in the regular season.

When it comes time to call-up a defenceman, we'll see who's been worthy of it in Hamilton. If it is Weber, then great. But my feeling is that the other two will probably be slightly ahead of him once this AHL season gets going.

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