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Old
09-29-2011, 03:40 PM
  #601
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Bro, what are you even saying?

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I don't believe at all that -one- prospect makes another prospect expendable. The whole reason you want a deep prospect pool is because not every prospect pans out. In fact, many of them don't. So, Fowler stepped in and immediately became our best blue line prospect.
Wrong. After his season from the beginning to the trade deadline, he became our number three defenseman, no longer even considered a prospect.

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Then Fowler would make every other defensive prospect expendable too. What a load of crap.
What... why, how, wh-ugh. This line of thought is completely irrelevant to the point...

What we hoped for when we drafted Fowler was a dynamic offensive talent that was also solid in our defensive zone. Everybody has drawn comparisons to Niedermayer. Cam and Jake don't play the game the same, but Fowler already reached the success that we had hoped Gardiner might reach. So, we already had an NHL caliber, number three, nineteen year old defenseman on the blueline. As opposed to the twenty year old Gardiner, who was not ready to step in immediately. I don't know if you remember how horrendous our defense was, but we needed another top four defenseman, beyond desperately.

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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Would you rather have two good prospects, or just one? Three, or just two? If Vatanen and Schultz don't work out, how does that make losing Gardiner look? What if Sbisa tops out as a third pairing guy? What if Fowler can't step up his game in the defensive zone? Why don't you ask Rangers fans if Del Zotto made Fowler expendable, and how passing up on him for McIlrath looks right now. Depth in a prospect pool leads to depth on the big team, and that's how Cup contending team's are out together.
If Vatanen and Schultz don't work out, tough ****. Doesn't affect the idea of losing Gardiner for Fowler.

If Fowler's game in the defensive zone doesn't step up, oh well. We're not talking about Marc-Andre Bergeron here. As long as his offense keeps getting better, he can be effective in the same way that Mike Green is. He already has the defensive ability to at least be on a second pairing, even with mediocre partners.

Third, what the **** does the draft have to do with anything? I'm talking about the specific case of Gardiner being expendable in the Beauchemin trade.

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Murray boned it. Tell me the logic of this: Beauchemin is a free agent, and Murray let's him go to Toronto for nothing because he doesn't feel he's worth the contract. Now, suddenly, Beauchemin is not only worth the contract but he's worth giving up Gardiner for too? How's that for asset management? And surprise, why does Anaheim need Beauchemin? Because Murray pencilled Sbisa into the top 4 and he wasn't ready for that role. Smooth one, Murray. BM should thank his lucky stars that Fowler -was- ready, because he jumped the gun on that one.
It was poor asset management in retrospect, but hindsight is 20/20. And, we didn't need Beauchemin because of any underpeformance from Sbisa, we needed him because of the Sutton fail. And that's on nobody but Sutton. He was atrocious and not at all similar to his form just months before the contract.

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09-29-2011, 04:26 PM
  #602
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We needed an upgrade on defense. Beauchemin was a good pickup. Doesn't mean that we should pay that much for him. I think Lupul and a slightly higher pick might have sufficed. Or even Gardiner and the pick.

If they really wanted to get rid of Lupul I'm sure they could have done it somewhere else. It almost seems like Lupul was treated as a negative asset here. I don't think that had to be the case.

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09-29-2011, 04:38 PM
  #603
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McMilli, you said Fowler made Gardiner expendable. How do you not understand if it applies to one player it applies to others? Not only did you say that, but you went further and said they play different games. Make up your mind. We're not talking about Fowler taking his spot. Gardiner was playing for Wisconsin, so how did Fowler make him expendable? You still haven't answered that.

As for the "Sutton fail" maybe you'd care to explain why that is on Sutton, and not, say... Murray?

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09-29-2011, 04:47 PM
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
We needed an upgrade on defense. Beauchemin was a good pickup. Doesn't mean that we should pay that much for him. I think Lupul and a slightly higher pick might have sufficed. Or even Gardiner and the pick.

If they really wanted to get rid of Lupul I'm sure they could have done it somewhere else. It almost seems like Lupul was treated as a negative asset here. I don't think that had to be the case.
I think Burke targeted Gardiner in that trade. No surprise. Burke's job is to make his team better. But it sure feels like Murray felt Burke was doing him a favor, so he sweetened the pot.

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09-29-2011, 06:12 PM
  #605
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The only person that made Gardiner expendable is Schultz, and even that is debatable but it seems to be the approach management took.

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09-29-2011, 06:47 PM
  #606
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The only person that made Gardiner expendable is Schultz, and even that is debatable but it seems to be the approach management took.
Agree that that's the case, and have no problem with it. Schultz was a force last year in only his sophomore year, surpassing Gardiner, and he could be an absolute beast this year. Vatanen also probably player a big part in Gardiner being expendable as well.

Gardiner's having a very good camp/preseason, but I'm not overly worried. This happens all the time, but since it's happening in Toronto, it's getting hyped. Gardiner has issues, some that he may never pick up, like lack of offensive instincts, and perhaps defensive as well. He has plenty of tools, but even his university coach had doubts whether or not he has the toolbox.

As for people bringing up the fact that Murray let Beauch go, that's kind of BS. Letting him go was a mistake in hindsight, although understandable. It would've been hard to give Beauch an average of $3.8 million and hope for Wiz to take less than $4. But even then, that's a piss-poor reason not to trade for a guy. If I found out Murray had a chance to improve the team but didn't pull the trigger because doing so would be admitting he made a mistake, I'd be furious, because he's making our team worse for the benefit of his ego. This is a case of Murray admitting he was wrong but making our team a lot better. If this Fowler-Beauch pairing can work, our D could potentially pretty good. And it gives us more options, should we decide to add another guy.

As for the trade, I still like it. Disappointed at first, with giving up Gardiner, but he was a bit expendable, and while maybe we didn't get the value we expected, I have a feeling Gardiner won't be that great(he reminds me a fair bit of Mikkelson) and it moved Lupul's big deal. Either way, even if Murph did overpay, glad to see he addressed that concern, and hopefully he re-signs Beauch this offseason.

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09-30-2011, 12:58 PM
  #607
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I think Winchester got 1-hit KO'd by Volpatti in last night's game. Probably a video on youtube somewhere already.

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10-01-2011, 12:45 AM
  #608
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Gardiner with a beautiful goal today -_-

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10-01-2011, 12:46 AM
  #609
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Oh Emery. Been hearing he hasn't looked too good even before that.

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10-01-2011, 01:05 AM
  #610
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Maybe we should sign him and he'll pass through waivers

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10-01-2011, 12:11 PM
  #611
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Nashville has signed Scott Valentine to a three-year entry level contract.

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10-01-2011, 12:47 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazy View Post
Gardiner with a beautiful goal today -_-
Don't give a **** we have Cam Fowler.

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10-01-2011, 02:04 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rcy View Post
I think Winchester got 1-hit KO'd by Volpatti in last night's game. Probably a video on youtube somewhere already.
That would have been funny if he was still on the Ducks, but since he is on the Sharks it was a cheap shot.

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10-03-2011, 11:47 AM
  #614
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http://twitter.com/#!/Real_ESPNLeBrun

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Hearing that Hawks and Ray Emery are close to agreeing on one-year deal. Still not done but close ...
Good for Emery if it gets done. Another big step on getting back in full time. Hopefully he stays healthy.

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10-03-2011, 11:48 AM
  #615
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He's looked terrible in pre-season, wouldn't think it's the same Emery from last season. Hopefully he can find some form [not against the Ducks]

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10-03-2011, 03:46 PM
  #616
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Emery's officially the Chicago backup!

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10-03-2011, 03:58 PM
  #617
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Good to see Emery getting contract. Wish him all the best, he tryed as hard as he could for us last season.

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10-03-2011, 05:35 PM
  #618
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Winchester 1 year 1-way 725K San Jose.

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10-03-2011, 05:41 PM
  #619
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Stu Bickel is still up with the Rangers, made their trip to Europe

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10-03-2011, 06:11 PM
  #620
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so it seems that Gardiner has made the leafs team, not sure how to feel about that is it more a case of the leafs needing the help than the ducks losing out either way get ready for the tidal wave of hype and gloating from the leafs fans

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10-03-2011, 06:22 PM
  #621
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Quote:
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so it seems that Gardiner has made the leafs team, not sure how to feel about that is it more a case of the leafs needing the help than the ducks losing out either way get ready for the tidal wave of hype and gloating from the leafs fans
If Gardiner were in Anaheim, I have to think he'd make this team. I'd put him ahead of Brookbank and Sbisa.

The kid has looked really good in pre-season. Moves the puck well, makes real good decisions, unbelievable skater, poise, etc... He's made his share of mistakes too, and he shows his inexperience at the NHL level, but he's an impressive young player.

I don't think he'll be winning the Calder this season, but he should be a good addition to the Leafs. The real question is how much better can he get? Too early to tell, I think.

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10-03-2011, 06:32 PM
  #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
If Gardiner were in Anaheim, I have to think he'd make this team. I'd put him ahead of Brookbank and Sbisa.

The kid has looked really good in pre-season. Moves the puck well, makes real good decisions, unbelievable skater, poise, etc... He's made his share of mistakes too, and he shows his inexperience at the NHL level, but he's an impressive young player.

I don't think he'll be winning the Calder this season, but he should be a good addition to the Leafs. The real question is how much better can he get? Too early to tell, I think.
Don't think he is better than Sbisa ATM, but Gardiner's ceiling is higher IMO. Sbisa of course is already the physical presence that the team needs and that Gardiner will never be.

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10-03-2011, 06:45 PM
  #623
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Don't think he is better than Sbisa ATM, but Gardiner's ceiling is higher IMO. Sbisa of course is already the physical presence that the team needs and that Gardiner will never be.
I think Gardiner will have a better season than Sbisa, and if they were head-to-head in training camp, I think Gardiner gets the nod. The only thing I think Sbisa has over Gardiner is his physical presence, and experience.

I've said it a number of times, but I believe Sbisa's physical presence is both an advantage and a disadvantage. His tendency to always play the body has lead to him going out of position to do it, on top missing the simple play for the flashy one. I just don't think he makes the smart decisions. Not to date, anyway.

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10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I think Gardiner will have a better season than Sbisa, and if they were head-to-head in training camp, I think Gardiner gets the nod. The only thing I think Sbisa has over Gardiner is his physical presence, and experience.

I've said it a number of times, but I believe Sbisa's physical presence is both an advantage and a disadvantage. His tendency to always play the body has lead to him going out of position to do it, on top missing the simple play for the flashy one. I just don't think he makes the smart decisions. Not to date, anyway.
I still think you are too hard on Sbisa's hockey sense.

I agree that hockey sense is not something that prospects typically improve on relative to his peers. When a player is hockey dumb compared to similar aged players they usually improve, but rarely more than other kids of the same age. When a player is hockey smart as a prospect, they tend to stay smarter than classmates once developed.

However Sbisa was reported as having good hockey sense relative to his peers. He looks bad in the NHL, but really a lot of 2008s haven't made the NHL yet. Since he was historically a smart player, I think he will eventually "catch up" to be similarly smart.

Gardiner is a different case, as he was historically pretty dumb, but a lot of it could be attributed to his recent position shift. It's not like he was hockey dumb after having years and years of training at D. So that's why he had some high risk-high reward. From the sound of it he has improved his hockey sense.

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10-05-2011, 12:55 AM
  #625
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Coyotes fan, here. Looks like Chipchura is going to make the team as our 12th, 13th, or 14th forward.

What can you tell me about him? Most specifically, about what he brought to the table before his concussion.

Thanks.

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