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850 Billion Bailout (economics, not politics)

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Old
11-08-2008, 12:53 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
I don't think anyone knows whether it will work or not. But it you look at the stock market, whenever it looks like the bill will pass, the market goes up. The other day when the house defeated the bill, we had the biggest single drop in history. So at least the wall street investors are "banking" on the bill fixing things.
even if a bill went through, it would drop, because it would already be priced in and without the market makers giving people reason to stay in by showing sustained momentum, there would be a sell off

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11-08-2008, 09:57 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
http://www.azcentral.com/business/ne...loan07-ON.html

see were getting paid back and did you know that AIG is being charged 11.5%, Uncle Sam isn't as stupid as we think. well....
We've been paid back pennies on the dollar so far by a company that we aren't even sure will stay afloat. And now we're looking at renegotiating the terms of the deal -- after we gave them the money. Our terms are too steep, you see. This is a criminal use of tax payer money...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

If you can't manage your business, the business should be allowed to fail. It doesn't matter how big it is.


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I don't know why your so down on Obama del? I recognize you may be a life long player for the Red Team, but Obama (unlike er our current administration) has surrounded himself with different corporate shills
I'm not sure why you'd think I'm cheering the current administration who pushed this monstrosity into being, either. I know it's difficult to move past the us vs them, Dem vs Rep paradigm, but I assure you there are a lot of people that could give half a damn about either corrupt party.

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11-10-2008, 08:13 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloomberg.com
The Federal Reserve is refusing to identify the recipients of almost $2 trillion of emergency loans from American taxpayers or the troubled assets the central bank is accepting as collateral.

Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said in September they would comply with congressional demands for transparency in a $700 billion bailout of the banking system. Two months later, as the Fed lends far more than that in separate rescue programs that didn't require approval by Congress, Americans have no idea where their money is going or what securities the banks are pledging in return.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide

Ho hum, just another day in our transparent democracy...

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11-10-2008, 09:46 PM
  #104
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yea I’m getting P.O.ed now. I still believe some stuff is working (i.e. the cash infusions) and the Gov’t can’t sit idle by and let the “free-market” work itself out unless we want 20% unemployment for the next 5 years We can't afford that. Things are getting really bad, and quite frankly scary. I just know I will be out of a “White Collar” job here in 6 months or my Salary dramatically cut. And what pisses me off (like many others) I went to College, got a Masters Degree, bust my A$$ (sorry it's needed) I bought a home that was well within my means. No more Bailouts until they purchase some God Darn Mortgage Paper!!!!

Ironic that last week I was patting Uncle Sam on the back for getting an 11.5% rate on the AIG loan, when today AIG said that rate was apparently too high, gee I would like to make that argument to my Mortgage lender. I want someone to explain to me why allowing AIG to default on these stupid CDO’s is an incredibly bad thing? It’s not like AIG is borrowing from anyone else besides the tax payer, who cares at this point if their credit rating tanks. ENOUGH!!! No more Bailouts until the TARP is in place and purchasing what it was sold to the American people to do, in purchasing bad Mortgage Paper. This whole disaster started with Housing and it’s recovery will start with Housing.

Why not jump ahead to the Detroit Bail-Out; now what I can’t understand is hypothetically if “we” lend them money what precisely will they do with it, when GM is burning $70m a day. I don’t see how throwing money at that makes that situation better.

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11-10-2008, 09:58 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times View Post
...Although A.I.G. wrote its insurance contracts on more than $400 billion of various types of complex debt securities, only about $70 billion worth of the securities are thought to be at imminent peril of default. A.I.G. refers to this batch of securities as multisector C.D.O.’s, because they combine a number of different types of debt.

Under the new plan, A.I.G. and the government will together create a new special-purpose entity to buy up the multisector C.D.O.’s. The C.D.O.’s will be quarantined in a place where it no longer matters much whether their value rises or falls, because A.I.G.’s own balance sheet will not be affected.

Also, because A.I.G.’s counterparties will no longer own the multisector C.D.O.’s, the company will not have to provide insurance coverage against default anymore. When the insurer cancels the troublesome insurance contracts, it will put an end to the collateral calls that have depleted its cash so severely.

The special-purpose entity will be financed with $5 billion from A.I.G. and $30 billion from the federal government. The entity will buy securities with a fair value of about $70 billion. The counterparties, which in aggregate had already pried about half that amount out of A.I.G., will be allowed to keep the collateral as well, people familiar with the planning said.

Now on second glimpse MAYBE, this is not entirely a bad thing. This will allow the gov't to isolate all the Bull (poo poo) CDO's/CDS's Which is something like I alluded to at the beginning of this post, should have happened 12 months ago. Again it started with housing and until we fix everything that is associated with housing things aren’t getting better. Unfortunately CDS’s are a part of the equation. The Gov’t has become a big finical janitor/ garbage man were it has to clean up other peoples messes. I realize it’s a philosophical difference between you and I, I don’t believe as systemic as all this Toxic stuff is, that the “Market” can figure it out in a reasonable and hopeful no more painful way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNBC View Post
The TARP has so far committed the following funding:

AIG [AIG 2.28 0.17 (+8.06%) ] $40 billion

JPMorgan [JPM 36.41 -1.34 (-3.55%) ] $25 billion

Citigroup [C 11.21 -0.61 (-5.16%) ] $25 billion

Wells Fargo [WFC 28.62 -0.88 (-2.98%) ] $25 billion

Bank of America [BAC 19.48 -1.01 (-4.93%) ] $15 billion

Merrill Lynch [MER 15.51 -1.24 (-7.4%) ] $10 billion /1

Goldman Sachs [GS 71.21 -6.57 (-8.45%) ] $10 billion

Morgan Stanley [MS 14.58 -1.40 (-8.76%) ] $10 billion

PNC Financial Services [PNC 66.77 -0.55 (-0.82%) ] $7.7 billion

Bank of New York Mellon [BK 30.14 0.04 (+0.13%) ] $3 billion

State Street Corp [STT 41.23 -1.74 (-4.05%) ] $2 billion

Capital One Financial [COF 32.56 -2.00 (-5.79%) ] $3.55 billion

Fifth Third Bancorp [FITB 10.07 -0.62 (-5.8%) ] $3.45 billion

Regions Financial [RF 10.68 -0.28 (-2.55%) ] $3.5 billion

SunTrust Banks [STI 37.53 -1.15 (-2.97%) ] $3.5 billion

BB&T Corp [BBT 30.81 -1.18 (-3.69%) ] $3.1 billion

KeyCorp [KEY 10.90 -0.34 (-3.02%) ] $2.5 billion

Comerica [CMA 23.85 -0.70 (-2.85%) ] $2.25 billion

Marshall & Ilsley Corp [MI 15.78 -0.84 (-5.05%) ] $1.7 billion

Northern Trust Corp [NTRS 50.53 -0.97 (-1.88%) ] $1.5 billion

Huntington Bancshares [HBAN 8.79 -0.69 (-7.28%) ] $1.4 billion

Zions Bancorp [ZION 37.95 -1.00 (-2.57%) ] $1.4 billion

First Horizon National [FHN 10.88 -0.38 (-3.37%) ] $866 million

City National Corp [CYN 45.44 -3.05 (-6.29%) ] $395 million

Valley National Bancorp [VLY 17.77 -0.43 (-2.36%) ] $330 million

UCBH Holdings Inc [UCBH 4.30 -0.35 (-7.53%) ] $298 million

Umpqua Holdings Corp [UMPQ 15.54 -0.06 (-0.38%) ] $214 million

Washington Federal [WFSL 15.97 -0.72 (-4.31%) ] $200 million

First Niagara Financial [FNFG 15.49 0.03 (+0.19%) ] $186 million

HF Financial Corp [HFFC 13.50 0.49 (+3.77%) ] $25 million

Bank of Commerce [BOCH 5.50 0.23 (+4.36%) ] $17 million

TOTAL: $203.08 billion
Seems quite transparent where the $700/ $850 Billion has gone yet so far.


Last edited by TeamTippett: 11-10-2008 at 11:11 PM.
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Old
11-12-2008, 05:43 PM
  #106
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Since the TARP – Treasury Asset Relief Program (aka the $700 Billion Bail-out) has recently changed from purchasing trouble assets (i.e. Mortgages) to direct cash infusions into banks, i.e. purchasing stock. In thinking about it the TARP needs a new name that reflects what it’s new course of action is:

HARP – Healthy Asset Relief Program, since only the healthiest banks are participating

CASH – Corporate Assistance to Secure Housing

PORK – Public Offering to Reduce Krashes

TOO LATE – Treasury Office Of Lending Assistance to Troubled Entities.

FREE MONI - Federal Relief for Emergency Extrication of Mortgage Owning National Institutions.

HA HA – Healthy Asset, Huge Program

FSDP – Federal Sugar Daddy Program

SOB – Socialized Ownership of Banks

IHOP – Internal Hand Out Program



I can’t take credit for some of these, they were on NPR, but I thought them to be funny.

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11-26-2008, 04:14 PM
  #107
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Financial Bailout Balloons to Trillions

Quote:
Millions of Americans cannot find affordable financing for their basic credit needs. And credit card rates are climbing, making it more expensive for families to finance everyday purchases," Paulson said
YOU SHOULDN'T FINANCE EVERYDAY PURCHASES YOU ****ING MORONS!

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11-26-2008, 06:29 PM
  #108
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I'd like to finance buy you a beer...

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11-26-2008, 06:32 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by _Del_ View Post
I'd like to finance buy you a beer...
Thanks though I need about 20 right now!

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Old
03-17-2009, 05:40 PM
  #110
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Just wanted to remind everyone how well the bailout is going!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/.../obama_economy

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03-17-2009, 06:47 PM
  #111
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http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4866969n

from this past Sundays 60 Minutes interview with Fed Chaiman Ben Bernake

Watch all the parts.



He shares in everyone’s frustration at the reckless malicious acts perpetrated by the clowns at AIG. However he makes it clear doing nothing would be catastrophic for the entire world economy at large. I’m equally a pissed off about these, they were “contracts” that in the eyes of AIG felt had to be fulfilled. No one mentions the “Contracts” that the UAW had with Detroit and those being broken. I have faith in Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Obama rectifying this. I have no problems with handing out big bonuses to talent that gets us out of this mess, but were still deep in it and so how can anyone claim a bonus under this cloud?

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03-17-2009, 07:05 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
He shares in everyone’s frustration at the reckless malicious acts perpetrated by the clowns at AIG. However he makes it clear doing nothing would be catastrophic for the entire world economy at large. I’m equally a pissed off about these, they were “contracts” that in the eyes of AIG felt had to be fulfilled. No one mentions the “Contracts” that the UAW had with Detroit and those being broken. I have faith in Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Obama rectifying this. I have no problems with handing out big bonuses to talent that gets us out of this mess, but were still deep in it and so how can anyone claim a bonus under this cloud?
In hindsight it is clear to me that a string should have been attached to the AIG money specifically that execs/top managers do not receive bonuses until repayment to the feds begins. Perhaps as a compromise between those who say the contracts need to be honored and those who want to just obliterate the contractual bonuses.

I'm not a huge government bailout fan in principle, but if companies are going to take the money they need to be servile.

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03-17-2009, 09:06 PM
  #113
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I hope the NY AG brings some of these loosers up on charges of some sorts. I have proposed moving foward that we set up a federal law centered aound a concept of National Economic Sabotage, something that an individual can be charges with if they commit crimes like clowns at AIG.

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03-17-2009, 09:08 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by _Del_ View Post
If you can't manage your business, the business should be allowed to fail. It doesn't matter how big it is.
This statement sums it up quite nicely. Well said.

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03-17-2009, 09:38 PM
  #115
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But what if the Buisness is so massive its failure would destroy lifes, wreck economies accross multi continents and lead to years of massive economic depresion? Its cheeper to do this than to let all these Derivetives unwind threw bankruptcy court...cough cough Lehman

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03-17-2009, 10:54 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
But what if the Buisness is so massive its failure would destroy lifes, wreck economies accross multi continents and lead to years of massive economic depresion?
What makes you so sure that this is going to be prevented with the bailout and how the money is/has been spent?

What benefit has the average middle class American enjoyed since the massive spending has begun?

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03-17-2009, 11:55 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Matzel View Post
What makes you so sure that this is going to be prevented with the bailout and how the money is/has been spent?

What benefit has the average middle class American enjoyed since the massive spending has begun?
Middle Class Americans enjoyed funding a lifesytle they couldn't afford for the past decade, with massive debt.

Americans have enjoyed only 8.1% unemployment. Their are economies in Europe that would collapse b/c of AIG. If you are more comfortable with double digit unemployment then let AIG and CITI go into an unorganized bankruptcy. The Credit Markets locked up after Lehman, they are just now easing some, let AIG go and were taking two steps back. The main reason why the stock market has rallied in the past week and their are some signs of light for a recovery; is b/c of market has confidence in the Fed doing everything to prevent major financial institutions from going under, it’s about confidence.

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03-18-2009, 04:25 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
But what if the Buisness is so massive its failure would destroy lifes, wreck economies accross multi continents and lead to years of massive economic depresion? Its cheeper to do this than to let all these Derivetives unwind threw bankruptcy court...cough cough Lehman
If a business is too big to fail, then it's too big to exist. Plain and simple!

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03-18-2009, 05:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
Middle Class Americans enjoyed funding a lifesytle they couldn't afford for the past decade, with massive debt.

Americans have enjoyed only 8.1% unemployment. Their are economies in Europe that would collapse b/c of AIG. If you are more comfortable with double digit unemployment then let AIG and CITI go into an unorganized bankruptcy. The Credit Markets locked up after Lehman, they are just now easing some, let AIG go and were taking two steps back. The main reason why the stock market has rallied in the past week and their are some signs of light for a recovery; is b/c of market has confidence in the Fed doing everything to prevent major financial institutions from going under, it’s about confidence.
That may all be true but the money currently being used to 'bail out' the AIGs and GMs of the world is money that comes largely from middle class Americans. The same people who may not have gambled on housing, signed 0-down/sub-prime-mortgages or amassed obscene credit card debt and 'played it safe' their whole life.

Unfortunately, many of them are now the ones who have to worry about their jobs or watch the equity in their homes dwindle.

The AIGs and GMs reaped the benefits of the system when times were rosy. Now, that their crooked strategies and faulty business practices have ruined them, they come running to Uncle Sam and ask for a bailout.

If they are too big to fail they are too big to exist as Sinurgy put it. I agree - even though it may cause ripple effects. Use the bailout money for the good of the American population, not to subsidize companies that should have known better in the first place.

The biggest issue is that there is not enough transparency regarding the use of the bailout monies. Paying executives their exorbitant bonuses is just one example why the whole idea is faulty.

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03-18-2009, 05:48 PM
  #120
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The main reason why the stock market has rallied in the past week and their are some signs of light for a recovery; is b/c of market has confidence in the Fed doing everything to prevent major financial institutions from going under, it’s about confidence.
Agreed. The chairman of the Fed has suggested that the recession could end this year and recovery could begin in earnest by 2010, but lenders have to start lending again and the market has to return to some kind of normalcy, and the government can help to bring that about. It's worth paying for that, from my layman's perspective.

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03-18-2009, 06:07 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
If a business is too big to fail, then it's too big to exist. Plain and simple!
Not to mention that the only reason those companies got "too big to fail" was because of government intervention enabled them to get that big. Now, they are failing, and they should fail. They are inefficient, and wasting resourced. Failing allows their good assets and resources to be put to better use, and there is no good justification for them to be propped up at the expense of unwilling 3rd parties(taxpayers).

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03-18-2009, 06:07 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Matzel View Post
The biggest issue is that there is not enough transparency regarding the use of the bailout monies. Paying executives their exorbitant bonuses is just one example why the whole idea is faulty.
This is the part that really annoys me. The anger at the big bonuses, while perhaps valid, ultimately only distracts people from the big problem. The sum total of all of the things people are calling out as inappropriate uses of the money (including all of the bonuses, retreats and pork being covered in the press) amount to a relatively insignificant fraction of the total amount. They may be inappropriate uses, but the bigger problem is the majority of the money that no one is really talking about and is far more opaque. People are vigorously complaining about the gnat in the room and ignoring the gorilla.

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03-18-2009, 06:20 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by MP View Post
Agreed. The chairman of the Fed has suggested that the recession could end this year and recovery could begin in earnest by 2010, but lenders have to start lending again and the market has to return to some kind of normalcy, and the government can help to bring that about. It's worth paying for that, from my layman's perspective.
1st off, I've had 0 problems acquiring more debt, maybe im the exception (although i will admit wells fargo was completely unresponsive, and head in sand-ish)

2nd. People are scaling back on debt, companies are lowering there out of whack debt:equity ratios. How is this a bad thing.

The market is struggling to return to normalcy despite the governmets best attempts to hinder it. Latest rendition: 300bil from the fed, and AIG. The government cannot, and will not do anything to return to normalcy. That normalcy they are trying to force a return to is just perception of years of skewed reality.

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03-18-2009, 06:21 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
This is the part that really annoys me. The anger at the big bonuses, while perhaps valid, ultimately only distracts people from the big problem. The sum total of all of the things people are calling out as inappropriate uses of the money (including all of the bonuses, retreats and pork being covered in the press) amount to a relatively insignificant fraction of the total amount. They may be inappropriate uses, but the bigger problem is the majority of the money that no one is really talking about and is far more opaque. People are vigorously complaining about the gnat in the room and ignoring the gorilla.
They have no problem arguing over a few million, but hundreds of billions and trillions are beyond their, and most peoples, ability to grasp the scale of. They can't handle it, that much is obvious.

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03-18-2009, 06:49 PM
  #125
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They have no problem arguing over a few million, but hundreds of billions and trillions are beyond their, and most peoples, ability to grasp the scale of. They can't handle it, that much is obvious.
It's a shame so few in the media are willing to re-frame the arguments in terms of percentages instead of fanning the flames of anger over small percentages of the total amount.

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