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Old
10-01-2008, 12:55 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You can use the +/- to compare players within your team.
but only if the plus/minus has a drastic difference, when the majority of the players on the team, notice i sad majority are between -5 and -1 it doesn't mean much, it just means your team as a whole is scoring more at even strength or letting less goals in at even-strength.

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10-01-2008, 12:59 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
but only if the plus/minus has a drastic difference, when the majority of the players on the team, notice i sad majority are between -5 and -1 it doesn't mean much, it just means your team as a whole is scoring more at even strength or letting less goals in at even-strength.
But if a player has a -25 one season..and then the one after he drops it to a -2..or something like that, then you can obviously notice an improvement in his defensive game.

If you look at one player that's at +5 and another one at -15..you can also make the case that the +5 one is better defensively.

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10-01-2008, 01:06 PM
  #353
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Anyway to get the point, I think no matter what happens this year, it will be a disappointing year for him because if he doesn't score atleast 20-25 goals this year and 35-40 points people will start to ask questions, here is my justification based on logic why he wont attain those goals.

At this point in time our top 9 is loaded with offensive talent. There are 9 forwards to play on two powerplay lines. Players to be gaurenteed a powerplay spot, Koivu, Kovalev, Plekanec, Andrei, Higgins and Lang(because he is our only right handed shot and has a good one at that). There you have six guys filling out six spots of forwards and we still have Tanguay and Sergei Kostitsyn left over and IMO and logically they are more of an offensive threat then Guiilaume.

This year besides Markov and Hamrlik and to extent Brisebois(but he wont play that many games) will be our point-men this year. This leaves two spots open for the point which will certainly be filled by Tanguay and Sergei seeing as thats where they have played during this pre-season.

Now at this point, barring injury I really doubt Lats is going to get much powerplay time. nor do I see him getting much PK time either. So that means he'll most probably be playing 11-12 minutes a game, maybe sometimes 13-14. For him to reach expectations, he'll have to get probably(notice I say probably) 20-25 ES goals and 15-20 ES assists. Considering that Latendresse still plays a perimeter game, and that he might not even be the player to replace an injured forward in the top 6 at ES or on the powerplay I really don't see Lats doing any better than he has previous seasons.

I'm sure people will come and say replace Higgins on the PP with Lats, but that won't happen because Higgins is just simply better regardless whether he misses most chances. Lats had only two powerplay goals last year and two powerplay assists(which came in the same game last year). Don't say he rarely played on the PP last year, because he did, I believe he averged 1:20 seconds a game, enough time to get points on the best powerplay and the best offense in the league.

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10-01-2008, 01:11 PM
  #354
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There is a major difference between Gui going from -20 to -2 and Michael Ryder going from -20 to -4.

The fact remains that as a whole Ryder played a lot less minutes in 07-08 compared to 06-07. One would expect a number that is very large in the negatives in 06-07 would be reduced simply by the fact he played less minutes. Yes this doesn't account for all 16 points of his improvement, but it clearly is a factor. Ryder was also better defensively than he was in 06-07. For him its a little of both columns.

For Lats he didn't have the change in minutes that Ryder had. His rookie year minutes and his 2nd year minutes are very comparable.

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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
1:20 seconds a game, enough time to get points on the best powerplay and the best offense in the league.
1:20/game is nothing.... tell me how much time did Koivu, Kovalev, Streit, Markov, Plekanec average per game.

So basically he gets to play the equivalent of one shift on one of our PP units per game... and a few seconds on the tail end of some penalties. When you get anywhere from 5-10 PPs per game... 1:20 is being not a featured PP guy.

Maybe he wasn't good enough to displace Higgins, I agree with you there... but don't tell me thats enough time to get PP points cause quite frankly its not. Infact i would bet that the majority of that PP time does not even come from a full shift on the PP but rather from playing the last 10-15 seconds at the tail end of a penalty.

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10-01-2008, 01:12 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Anyway to get the point, I think no matter what happens this year, it will be a disappointing year for him
I don't know... If lats plays on a lIne with Lang and S. Kost all year, that's already far superior to the lines he was on last year when he potted 16 goals. I see no reason that line can't be an effective scoring line, and see Lats get over 20 goals this year.

Reasonable expectations. That's really the key idea here. 20 goals is reasonable for Lats, and if he hits that he's well on his way to becoming a 25-30 goal scorer when he really matures around the age of 23-24.

This year is a good opportunity for him, with the addition of Lang, he no longer needs to play on the Top 2 lines to develop offensively, both he and Sergei can continue to improve and gain confidence without disrupting our Top 2 powerhouse lines.

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10-01-2008, 01:19 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But if a player has a -25 one season..and then the one after he drops it to a -2..or something like that, then you can obviously notice an improvement in his defensive game.

If you look at one player that's at +5 and another one at -15..you can also make the case that the +5 one is better defensively.
No you can;t not at all, like I said, Brad richards is an exceptional two way forward, but last year he was -20, but does that mean he's bad, no not all and if you look at the team then you'll get your answer. Now look at the habs of 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 and you'll see that the majorit of players in the former were minus because the team as a whole, not individual players were abosolutly brtual defensivly. This year, the majority or our players commited to defense and guess what happened, the majority of our team was between -5 and -2 because the habs as a team were better at even strength, either scoring, or letting goals in.

A good example of why it is a useless stat, because if the other team clears the zone and by accident you pull a toskala and it goes in, then every player gets a minus, but does that imply that you're good defensivly? NO!

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10-01-2008, 01:21 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
A good example of why it is a useless stat, because if the other team clears the zone and by accident you pull a toskala and it goes in, then every player gets a minus, but does that imply that you're good defensivly? NO!
In a short tournament... or over say 10 games okay... but over an 82 game stretch these bad bounces invariably even out.

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10-01-2008, 01:21 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Anyway to get the point, I think no matter what happens this year, it will be a disappointing year for him because if he doesn't score atleast 20-25 goals this year and 35-40 points people will start to ask questions, here is my justification based on logic why he wont attain those goals.

At this point in time our top 9 is loaded with offensive talent. There are 9 forwards to play on two powerplay lines. Players to be gaurenteed a powerplay spot, Koivu, Kovalev, Plekanec, Andrei, Higgins and Lang(because he is our only right handed shot and has a good one at that). There you have six guys filling out six spots of forwards and we still have Tanguay and Sergei Kostitsyn left over and IMO and logically they are more of an offensive threat then Guiilaume.

This year besides Markov and Hamrlik and to extent Brisebois(but he wont play that many games) will be our point-men this year. This leaves two spots open for the point which will certainly be filled by Tanguay and Sergei seeing as thats where they have played during this pre-season.

Now at this point, barring injury I really doubt Lats is going to get much powerplay time. nor do I see him getting much PK time either. So that means he'll most probably be playing 11-12 minutes a game, maybe sometimes 13-14. For him to reach expectations, he'll have to get probably(notice I say probably) 20-25 ES goals and 15-20 ES assists. Considering that Latendresse still plays a perimeter game, and that he might not even be the player to replace an injured forward in the top 6 at ES or on the powerplay I really don't see Lats doing any better than he has previous seasons.

I'm sure people will come and say replace Higgins on the PP with Lats, but that won't happen because Higgins is just simply better regardless whether he misses most chances. Lats had only two powerplay goals last year and two powerplay assists(which came in the same game last year). Don't say he rarely played on the PP last year, because he did, I believe he averged 1:20 seconds a game, enough time to get points on the best powerplay and the best offense in the league.
Not sure what you mean by the "he plays a perimiter game"? You have him confused with S.Kost, Tanguay or Plekanec. He goes to the net as well as anybody along with Koivu and A.Kost but his physique is much more tailored to do the job than Koivu's is. If there ever was a role made for him it's in front of the net on the PP, but as was mentionned previously, he won't be able to do it from the bench, he'll need an extended look there.

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10-01-2008, 01:23 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
There is a major difference between Gui going from -20 to -2 and Michael Ryder going from -20 to -4.

The fact remains that as a whole Ryder played a lot less minutes in 07-08 compared to 06-07. One would expect a number that is very large in the negatives in 06-07 would be reduced simply by the fact he played less minutes. Yes this doesn't account for all 16 points of his improvement, but it clearly is a factor. Ryder was also better defensively than he was in 06-07. For him its a little of both columns.

For Lats he didn't have the change in minutes that Ryder had. His rookie year minutes and his 2nd year minutes are very comparable.



1:20/game is nothing.... tell me how much time did Koivu, Kovalev, Streit, Markov, Plekanec average per game.

So basically he gets to play the equivalent of one shift on one of our PP units per game... and a few seconds on the tail end of some penalties. When you get anywhere from 5-10 PPs per game... 1:20 is being not a featured PP guy.

Maybe he wasn't good enough to displace Higgins, I agree with you there... but don't tell me thats enough time to get PP points cause quite frankly its not. Infact i would bet that the majority of that PP time does not even come from a full shift on the PP but rather from playing the last 10-15 seconds at the tail end of a penalty.
But we're not talking about koivu kovalev ect. Second you cannot compare the offensive awarness about those two, to Latendresse. Regardless whether or not he didn't much, the fact is that he played on the powerplay. In fact from October to mid December Lats had a regular spot on the power play until Sergei came on the team.

He just didn't score because he refused to pay the price, he is a perimeter player who hits a player 6 seconds after he's cleared the puck out of the zone.

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10-01-2008, 01:31 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
he is a perimeter player who hits a player 6 seconds after he's cleared the puck out of the zone.
Now your just making stuff up. If that were the case, he'd be getting a penalty everytime he hit someone. I cannot recall even once where he got called for a late hit...

The fact of the matter is, Lats hits and scores like few his age do...

I agree that if he can net 20+ this year, he is well on his way to becoming a 30g scorer and physical forechecker in his prime...

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10-01-2008, 01:34 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
But we're not talking about koivu kovalev ect. Second you cannot compare the offensive awarness about those two, to Latendresse. Regardless whether or not he didn't much, the fact is that he played on the powerplay. In fact from October to mid December Lats had a regular spot on the power play until Sergei came on the team.

He just didn't score because he refused to pay the price, he is a perimeter player who hits a player 6 seconds after he's cleared the puck out of the zone.
You are confusing my point.... I'm not saying he deserves the PP time that these guys get... My point was that 1:20/game is not a lot of PP time. It is 1/6th of what someone who is on one of the top 2 PP units gets.... You can't point to the 1:20/game and 4PP points and say... LOOK he got time on the PP and didn't score much. Cause 1:20 per game is NOT getting adequate PP time.

He didn't score on the PP cause he was used very, very rarely on the PP. Its hard to go to the net and pay the price when you are sitting on the bench.

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10-01-2008, 01:35 PM
  #362
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No you can;t not at all, like I said, Brad richards is an exceptional two way forward, but last year he was -20, but does that mean he's bad, no not all and if you look at the team then you'll get your answer. Now look at the habs of 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 and you'll see that the majorit of players in the former were minus because the team as a whole, not individual players were abosolutly brtual defensivly. This year, the majority or our players commited to defense and guess what happened, the majority of our team was between -5 and -2 because the habs as a team were better at even strength, either scoring, or letting goals in.

A good example of why it is a useless stat, because if the other team clears the zone and by accident you pull a toskala and it goes in, then every player gets a minus, but does that imply that you're good defensivly? NO!
Euh..
I never said it means he's ''good or bad defensively''. Its not because a player finished -20 one season that he's bad defensively.
But he had a bad season in terms of defensive coverage. Whether its him or his line or the team as a whole is irrelevant. If your team sucks, it doesn't excuse a -20, unless the average +/- on your team is a -50.

And yea, that's exactly my point. Having a bad +/- doesn't mean your bad, but it means you had a bad season. Just like you said, the fallowing year they have to be a lot more focus to their defensive aspect and they improved.

That was my point. You can use +/- to show improvements within your team as a whole, year after year. And also individually as a player, year after year.

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10-01-2008, 01:37 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
You are confusing my point.... I'm not saying he deserves the PP time that these guys get... My point was that 1:20/game is not a lot of PP time. It is 1/6th of what someone who is on one of the top 2 PP units gets.... You can't point to the 1:20/game and 4PP points and say... LOOK he got time on the PP and didn't score much. Cause 1:20 per game is NOT getting adequate PP time.
Plus when guys who are not regulars get time, it's usually the last 10-20 seconds of a PP with their regular linemates. I'm sure if you check, guys like Dandenault, Begin, Smolinski, Lapierre have some PP time showing in their stats.

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10-01-2008, 01:40 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
But we're not talking about koivu kovalev ect. Second you cannot compare the offensive awarness about those two, to Latendresse. Regardless whether or not he didn't much, the fact is that he played on the powerplay. In fact from October to mid December Lats had a regular spot on the power play until Sergei came on the team.

He just didn't score because he refused to pay the price, he is a perimeter player who hits a player 6 seconds after he's cleared the puck out of the zone.
Beaker didn't say he deserved the PP ice time Koivu got.
He said Koivu/Kovalev/etc get regular PP time. Compare their time to Latendresse and you'll notice a significant difference in terms of minutes on PP.

Also, Latendresse never had a regular PP minutes and Sergei replaced Ryder's spot on PP not Latendresse's.

You clearly don't know what a perimeter player is, and if Lats hit 6seconds after they guy cleared the puck, he'd be the most penalized player in the league. Stop making crap up.

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10-01-2008, 01:43 PM
  #365
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In fact from October to mid December Lats had a regular spot on the power play until Sergei came on the team.
This never happened.

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10-01-2008, 01:44 PM
  #366
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This never happened.
The funniest is that he starts his sentence with ''In Fact''..

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10-01-2008, 01:46 PM
  #367
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This never happened.
I'm done arguing, all he's doing in his posts is making stuff up, and distorting stats to push this anti-Latendresse agenda.

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10-01-2008, 01:47 PM
  #368
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Plus when guys who are not regulars get time, it's usually the last 10-20 seconds of a PP with their regular linemates. I'm sure if you check, guys like Dandenault, Begin, Smolinski, Lapierre have some PP time showing in their stats.
Just cause it's a funny stat...Lapierre's average...wait for it... 8 seconds a game on the PP, lol.

But in seriousness, Lats was 8th overall among forwards in PP time/game.
http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?fetc...Name=timeOnIce

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10-01-2008, 01:51 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Beaker didn't say he deserved the PP ice time Koivu got.
He said Koivu/Kovalev/etc get regular PP time. Compare their time to Latendresse and you'll notice a significant difference in terms of minutes on PP.

Also, Latendresse never had a regular PP minutes and Sergei replaced Ryder's spot on PP not Latendresse's.

You clearly don't know what a perimeter player is, and if Lats hit 6seconds after they guy cleared the puck, he'd be the most penalized player in the league. Stop making crap up.

How many times a game does lats dsrive to the net? once max!?

How many times does he come off the wing to try to put a puck past a d-man to the corner and loses to get checked? How many times does he retrieve the puck from behind the net, skate back and forth, finally come up the side boards and take a bad shot from a bad angle or make a blind pass in the slot? He does these two things a lot!!!! In fact thats pretty mcuh all he does in the offensive zone.

Oh and I forget, he does the occasional side to side junior deke only to get checked and lose the puck. It's true, that makes him an elite powerforward.

He has 134 checks, he's a powerforward!!!! He playes on the outer edges of the rink... he's a powerforward!! He's so fast!! He must be a powerforward!

I used to think this kid was going to be good from his first two pre-seasons and his first year, but after 2 years of play, he doesn't have what it takes, especially after seeing the talent montreal has coming up and on their current team. Reminds me of Michel Oulette, he can score, but he still can't crack peoples rosters, he wasn't wanted in Pittsburgh and wasn't wanted in Tampa.

It made sense from him to be on the team in the 2005-2006 season seeing as our team didn't have an identity and most of our good prospects had just recently been drafted, but now that we have a team with an identity and a goal in mind you can see that he just doesn't fit and just won't be that good. He doesn't make his linemates better and can only score if played with better players, but those better players don't play as well as they do with other good players on this team. Lats doesn't offer anything taht we don't already have besdies 134 hits.

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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I'm done arguing, all he's doing in his posts is making stuff up, and distorting stats to push this anti-Latendresse agenda.
The same way he scored 16 goals playing 12 minutes a game, oh wait, wasn't it 11 minutes. I think it was 10 minutes, no it's true it was 9 minutes a game. Now it's 8, talk about distorting facts.


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10-01-2008, 01:56 PM
  #370
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How many times a game does lats dsrive to the net? once max!?

How many times does he come off the wing to try to put a puck past a d-man to the corner and loses to get checked? How many times does he retrieve the puck from behind the net, skate back and forth, finally come up the side boards and take a bad shot from a bad angle or make a blind pass in the slot? He does these two things a lot!!!! In fact thats pretty mcuh all he does in the offensive zone.

Oh and I forget, he does the occasional side to side junior deke only to get checked and lose the puck. It's true, that makes him an elite powerforward.

He has 134 checks, he's a powerforward!!!! He playes on the outer edges of the rink... he's a powerforward!! He's so fast!! He must be a powerforward!

I used to think this kid was going to be good from his first two pre-seasons and his first year, but after 2 years of play, he doesn't have what it takes, especially after seeing the talent montreal has coming up and on their current team. Reminds me of Michel Oulette, he can score, but he still can't crack peoples rosters, he wasn't wanted in Pittsburgh and wasn't wanted in Tampa.

It made sense from him to be on the team in the 2005-2006 season seeing as our team didn't have an identity and most of our good prospects had just recently been drafted, but now that we have a team with an identity and a goal in mind you can see that he just doesn't fit and just won't be that good. He doesn't make his linemates better and can only score if played with better players, but those better players don't play as well as they do with other good players on this team. Lats doesn't offer anything taht we don't already have besdies 134 hits.
Comparing him to Michel Ouellet(and not even being able to spell his name correctly) has to be the cherry on top. It's a waste of time arguing with you because logic and common sense have nothing to do with your posts. You want him off the team at all costs and he will never amount to an NHL player, we get it! Time to move on and leave the hockey talk to people that can actually be objective.

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10-01-2008, 01:57 PM
  #371
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How many times does he come off the wing to try to put a puck past a d-man to the corner and loses to get checked? How many times does he retrieve the puck from behind the net, skate back and forth, finally come up the side boards and take a bad shot from a bad angle or make a blind pass in the slot?
3 times. No more, no less.

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10-01-2008, 02:09 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
You are confusing my point.... I'm not saying he deserves the PP time that these guys get... My point was that 1:20/game is not a lot of PP time. It is 1/6th of what someone who is on one of the top 2 PP units gets.... You can't point to the 1:20/game and 4PP points and say... LOOK he got time on the PP and didn't score much. Cause 1:20 per game is NOT getting adequate PP time.

He didn't score on the PP cause he was used very, very rarely on the PP. Its hard to go to the net and pay the price when you are sitting on the bench.
This is why PTS/60ES and PTS/60PP are valuable stats. Especially when discussing a player like Lats, who has slowly been worked into the lineup. Straight up G-A-PTS is outdated, IMO.

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10-01-2008, 02:11 PM
  #373
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And me.

Trading Higgins for a Top4 that we dont need is ridiculous.
Lets have 8 Dman to start the season with..
Better yet, lets get a 4th D that's under contract for a bunch of seasons so that we can have even less room available next season for our youngsters..

We Do Not Need a 4th Dman, as of today.
That's your opinion and I respect it. I was replying to a post calling those who disagreed with him/her as "insane". I happen to think that it's very debatable.

Just as what you're doing in the post I'm quoting is going all out the other way, a trade would involve one of our current defensemen obviously, bringing the total back down to 7. Not bad is it?

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10-01-2008, 02:11 PM
  #374
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3 times. No more, no less.
Both of my daughter's born exactly 9 years apart, have best friends whose mothers play the accordion. I don't know how this math relates to Lats driving the net, but I think it's quite the coincidence.

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That's your opinion and I respect it. I was replying to a post calling those who disagreed with him/her as "insane". I happen to think that it's very debatable.

Just as what you're doing in the post I'm quoting is going all out the other way, a trade would involve one of our current defensemen obviously, bringing the total back down to 7. Not bad is it?
If a stud d is available and everythiung fits, and if the team's played enough games to truly identify need, than you can evaluate whether dealing from what is obviously a strength, the wing is feasible. I don't see the need to react to what Pac has shown so far. Some ideas are well thought out, some are kids going nuts with the flavour of the month.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 10-01-2008 at 04:15 PM.
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10-01-2008, 02:18 PM
  #375
Habsterix*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
If a stud d is available and everythiung fits, and if the team's played enough games to truly identify need, than you can evaluate whether dealing from what is obviously a strength, the wing is feasible. I don't see the need to react to what Pac has shown so far. Some ideas are well thought out, some are kids going nuts with the flavour of the month.
Through this whole debate (ask Jaydee about it), the motive some of us had really had nothing to do with the way Max Pac is playing. Whether it's him, D'Agostini, Stewart or moving Lapierre to the wing to make room for Chipchura, I was saying exactly what you've just said here. Trading from a position of strength in order to fill a hole in our line-up.

Is it necessary now or wait at the deadline? That's very much debatable and there are pros and cons on both sides. We can probably afford to wait but the asking price will be much higher at the deadline than it is now, that's for sure.

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