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PRE-SEASON--Toronto Maple Leafs @ Detroit Red Wings -- 7:30pm EST, Oct. 3/08

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Old
10-04-2008, 10:40 AM
  #301
Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
He's not spinning anything, what he was saying is that, Detroit was lacking more talent than the Leafs were, thus, if both rosters were at full strength, it could be even uglier.
Sorry Platty for making work for you, explaining what should have been a pretty straight forward point.

It does prove though how very often some Leaf Nation Fans tend to look at Leafs team in a vacuum unto itself without any other outside factors ever considered.

ie. "Leafs were missing players or they could have been better last night", and completely ignoring the simple fact that Wings also didn't dress all their best players either.

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10-04-2008, 10:42 AM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Sorry Platty for making work for you, explaining what should have been a pretty straight forward point.

It does prove though how very often some Leaf Nation Fans tend to look at Leafs team in a vacuum unto itself without any other outside factors.

ie. Leafs were missing players or they could have been better last night and completely ignoring the simple fact that Wings also didn't dress their best players.
I never said anything at all about missing players, for either team. You did. I simply pointed out the difference in talent between the two lineups. Which is still a fact. My original point was pretty straight forward. You made an assumption that I was suggesting that. But, in fact, I wasn't remotely thinking anything along those lines, nor was I trying to suggest it.

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10-04-2008, 10:49 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
I could look anyone in the eye and say with a straight face that Wings line-up yesterday, today and guaranteed the first regular season game that Detroit will have a superior lineup to the Leafs.
Wow, you really put yourself out there. For whose benefit, may I ask?

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10-04-2008, 10:57 AM
  #304
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Bull***. List the teams that played last night. Are you seriously going to say the Leafs iced the more talented team last night? If that's not what you're saying, then it's pure spin.
No, though I think this whole thing has been a bit of a misunderstanding now that I look back on it. You were simply arguing Detroit was the better lineup. I think Mess (and I), thought you were saying that it was because we didn't play our top guns, to which he astutely pointed out that, well, Detroit had a heck of a lot more talent out.

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10-04-2008, 11:01 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by draeko17 View Post
I never said anything at all about missing players, for either team. You did. I simply pointed out the difference in talent between the two lineups. Which is still a fact. My original point was pretty straight forward. You made an assumption that I was suggesting that. But, in fact, I wasn't remotely thinking anything along those lines, nor was I trying to suggest it.
The problem is is that you may have mistakenly implied that the Leafs may not lose every game by a 7-2 score this season.

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10-04-2008, 11:03 AM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
No, though I think this whole thing has been a bit of a misunderstanding now that I look back on it. You were simply arguing Detroit was the better lineup. I think Mess (and I), thought you were saying that it was because we didn't play our top guns, to which he astutely pointed out that, well, Detroit had a heck of a lot more talent out.

Detroit with more talent?

The fact that both teams didn't ice all their best players?

When people have preconceptions communication is more difficult.

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10-04-2008, 11:03 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
No, though I think this whole thing has been a bit of a misunderstanding now that I look back on it. You were simply arguing Detroit was the better lineup. I think Mess (and I), thought you were saying that it was because we didn't play our top guns, to which he astutely pointed out that, well, Detroit had a heck of a lot more talent out.

From you, I can agree this has been a misunderstanding. From Mess......too many times I've seen him stir the pot. I remember reading something from him once that suggested he was relatively close to me in age (okay, not THAT old...) but he reminds me more of a teenager who pokes and prods to get a reaction.

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10-04-2008, 11:04 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
The problem is is that you may have mistakenly implied that the Leafs may not lose every game by a 7-2 score this season.
Oops.

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10-04-2008, 11:53 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by draeko17 View Post
From you, I can agree this has been a misunderstanding. From Mess......too many times I've seen him stir the pot. I remember reading something from him once that suggested he was relatively close to me in age (okay, not THAT old...) but he reminds me more of a teenager who pokes and prods to get a reaction.
To prove your maturity, you posted this that comes across as a whining little school girl.

All I posted in my original post was the names of some Wings players including 97 point Datsyuk, Homlstrom, Hossa, Kronwall and their starting goalie Osgood all missing from last nights game or it could have been a lot worse. With a stripped down Wings roster it was good enough to beat our Leafs and toy with them most of the evening, due the vast talent level of the two teams in comparison.

If your original point was that Detroit has more talent then the Leafs, then isn't that stating the blatantly obvious that Wings have an amazing amount of talent, which I am sure every single poster on HF boards already knows. So sorry for misinterpreting your post, as I certainly missed the point of your post that Detroit is more talented then the Leafs. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Not sure why you got so worked up, as all I pointed out was that it could have been a lot worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draeko17 View Post
Compare the line-ups. Compare the bluelines. What did you expect?
Good Point ..

Wings were without Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Hossa, Cleary, Kronwall, Stuart, Chelios, Osgood ..

They will be a lot better come the regular season, then they were tonight.


Last edited by Mess: 10-04-2008 at 12:05 PM.
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10-04-2008, 12:56 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Wings were without Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Hossa, Cleary, Kronwall, Stuart, Chelios, Osgood ..

They will be a lot better come the regular season, then they were tonight.
Leafs without best three D Kaberle, Kubina, Schenn + Finger and Hagman, Kulemin, Moore, Mayers will be a lot better come the regular season too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
He's not spinning anything, what he was saying is that, Detroit was lacking more talent than the Leafs were, thus, if both rosters were at full strength, it could be even uglier.
Donīt know if they were really lacking more talent...

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10-04-2008, 01:03 PM
  #311
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1)Anybody have the Leaf and/or Wing line-up for tonight's tilt?

2) Anybody know of a webcast or TV schedule for the game tonight?

THANK YOU!!!

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10-04-2008, 01:43 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
Elite goaltending hid a lot of our foibles and we were insanely spoiled when Cujo left and we got Belfour to replace him.
Most of the top teams in the league, when we were good, also had elite goaltending.

Yet for some reason, even though we were always one of the highest scoring teams in the league, our team apparently was more dependent on our goaltending than the other teams.

Never made much sense.

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10-04-2008, 01:46 PM
  #313
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Don't the Leafs play the Wings again tonight?

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10-04-2008, 01:57 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Donīt know if they were really lacking more talent...
Sure they were. Datsyuk/Hossa alone is a lot more talent than was absent in the Leafs lineup. It's just more glaring because we're short on it to begin with, and Detroit is loaded.

To be fair, Detroit makes a lot of teams look talentless in comparison.

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10-04-2008, 02:33 PM
  #315
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Datsyuk/Hossa is a comparable loss to Kaberle/Kubina.

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10-04-2008, 02:42 PM
  #316
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How is it that value wise, both players are worth FAR more than ours, yet they are comparable losses?

Kaberle + Kubina wouldn't fetch Datsyuk alone.

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10-04-2008, 02:43 PM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Datsyuk/Hossa is a comparable loss to Kaberle/Kubina.
Leafs 4 best players?

Kaberle, Kubina, Antropov, Hagman

Wings 4 best players?

Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hossa


Bolded were in line up.


Empty netter, to make it 5-3.

Minutes played:
Lidstrom 24.02 - Carlo 24.14
Rafalski 23.44 - Van Ryn 21.07
Zetterberg 18.40 - Antropov 17.30
Franzon 18.36 - Blake 20.37


Last edited by ULF_55: 10-04-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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10-04-2008, 02:48 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Datsyuk/Hossa is a comparable loss to Kaberle/Kubina.
I would take Datsyuk over everyone there. Kaberle over Hossa. Hossa over Kubina. I don't think the loss is too comparable, but that's just me.

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10-04-2008, 02:49 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
How is it that value wise, both players are worth FAR more than ours, yet they are comparable losses?

Kaberle + Kubina wouldn't fetch Datsyuk alone.
Kaberle and Datsyuk rank about the same at their respective positions (probably top-10, at least top-15).

Kubina and Hossa rank about the same at their respective positions (probably top-20, at least top-30).

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10-04-2008, 02:57 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Datsyuk/Hossa is a comparable loss to Kaberle/Kubina.
Niklas Kronwall 35 points in 65 games and Pavel Kubina had 40 points in 72 games is the comparible missing from yesterdays game.
Pavel Datsyuk had 97 points last year good enough for 4th in the NHL overall with only Ovechkin, Malkin and Iginla had more points.. If the Leafs had Sundin to re-insert in the line-up he wouldn't offset Datsyuk as an equal..

If you count Datsyuk 31 goals 97 points, Hossa 29 goals 66 points, Cleary 20 goals 42 goals, Holmstrom 20 goals 40 points in 59 games were all missing from the forwards .. Thats 4 , 20-30 goal scorers..

Leafs have Fletcher's boys Hagman, Hollweg, Moore, and Mayers to re-insert at forwards removing White, Devo, Bell and Rogers from last nights line-up. Is that really going to make a big difference?

Sure Leafs can put Kaberle and Kubina in and take Sifers and Kronwall out and Wings can insert Kronwall, Brad Stuart and Chelios. The Leafs don't have a Lidstrom and Raflaski = about Kaberle when both teams are at full strength.

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10-04-2008, 03:00 PM
  #321
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I'm not sure anyone is confused about whether the Leafs are more talented than the Wings unless they aren't from this planet.

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10-04-2008, 03:04 PM
  #322
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So...you guys are trying to say that we're not as good as Detroit yet?

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10-04-2008, 03:07 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Rattlehead View Post
So...you guys are trying to say that we're not as good as Detroit yet?


That's the gist of it.

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10-04-2008, 03:17 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Rattlehead View Post
So...you guys are trying to say that we're not as good as Detroit yet?
No we're as good as them but since Kyle Rogers and Richard Petoit weren't able to make it to this game, it appears as if we're worse.

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10-04-2008, 04:33 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
To prove your maturity, you posted this that comes across as a whining little school girl.

.....
Yes, you're right.

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