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Mid to late 70's Canadiens vs. Mid 80's Oilers

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Old
10-11-2008, 02:41 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by dcinroc View Post
!979 game 7 against Boston is online, too (google video, I think).Lafleur had the tying goal to send it into OT and had 2 assists...all in the 3rd period. Prior to that he had set up a number of good opportunities, but the Habs had trouble finishing.

Aside from Lafleur, who often double-shifted, Shutt and Larouche didn't really see a lot of ice-time. Bowman liked to play the bangers much of the time. Guys like Gainey, Risebrough, Lambert and Tremblay tended to see a lot of ice.

If Shutt and Larouche had been on the ice more, then I have no doubt that Lafleur could have topped 90+ assists regularly. I can't count how many times I saw Lafleur setting up guys like Gainey or Houle with easy plays that they would miss. People who think that Lafleur's numbers were inflated by playing on Montreal are kidding themselves....it's actually the opposite.


It is also often forgotten that Lafleur could be a pretty tenacious and physical forechecker in his younger days.

All that said, I think it would be a very tough series between Montreal and Edmonton. I think the key to the whole series wouldn't be if Montreal could stop Gretzky, but rather if Edmonton could stop Lafleur.
I hear ya. I meant the only game from 1976/77 which was his absolute prime.

Hell the Flyers of the mid 80's nearly beat the oilers.

Remember the Oilers had a very weak playoff schedule in those years until the finals.
76, 77 and 78 Habs would have swept. 79 Habs in 5.

Lafleur had 77 assists on 1979. The 2nd highest point getter on the Habs in 1979, Shutt, had 77 points.

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10-11-2008, 03:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by PuckGirl View Post
I hear ya. I meant the only game from 1976/77 which was his absolute prime.

Hell the Flyers of the mid 80's nearly beat the oilers.

Remember the Oilers had a very weak playoff schedule in those years until the finals.
76, 77 and 78 Habs would have swept. 79 Habs in 5.

Lafleur had 77 assists on 1979. The 2nd highest point getter on the Habs in 1979, Shutt, had 77 points.
Nearly beat the oilers?
They won a single game in that series. Get a new hobby chooch.

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10-11-2008, 04:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by PuckGirl View Post
The Habs didnt run up the score to pad stats which you would know if had actually seen any 70's Habs games.
What is an 11-0 win over the Washington Capitals on April 2, 1977? That's not running up the score? That was the Canadiens' second from last game of the season. They did only beat the Capitals 2-1 in Montreal's final regular season game, but I would call an 11-0 win, "Running up the game."


Montreal had beaten Washington in all four of the teams' previous meetings by a combined score of 21-4.


Here are some other routs by Montreal from the 1976-77 season.

DATEH OR AOPPONENTRESMTLOPP
Sat, Apr 2, 1977HWashington CapitalsW110
Thu, Oct 7, 1976HPittsburgh PenguinsW101
Sat, Oct 23, 1976APittsburgh PenguinsW91
Sat, Nov 6, 1976HChicago Black HawksW113
Tue, Nov 9, 1976ASt. Louis BluesW81
Wed, Nov 24, 1976ACleveland BaronsW81
Sun, Jan 2, 1977HAtlanta FlamesW70
Thu, Jan 6, 1977ABuffalo SabresW92
Sun, Feb 27, 1977ANew York RangersW81
Thu, Oct 14, 1976APhiladelphia FlyersW71
Tue, Oct 19, 1976AWashington CapitalsW60
Wed, Dec 15, 1976AColorado RockiesW82
Tue, Jan 11, 1977AColorado RockiesW60
Sat, Jan 15, 1977HLos Angeles KingsW60
Wed, Feb 9, 1977HVancouver CanucksW60
Thu, Mar 10, 1977HColorado RockiesW71
Sun, Mar 27, 1977ADetroit Red WingsW60
Sat, Dec 11, 1976HDetroit Red WingsW50

The Cleveland Barons, Rangers, Rockies, Red Wings, Capitals and Canucks were the six teams that didn't make the playoffs in the 18-team league. Chicago made the playoffs with a 26-43-11 record. The Flames finished the regular season at the .500 mark and the Flames and Kings were slightly above it.

Philadelphia and Buffalo were the only strong teams on that list. The Flyers finished the season with the second best record in the NHL that year, 48-16-16. Buffalo finished with the third best record in the Wales Conference at 48-24-8.

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10-11-2008, 05:40 PM
  #54
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Ill take the team with Gretzky at his peak everytime.

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10-11-2008, 08:56 PM
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Let's look at the Canadiens from 1976-1979, and the Oilers in '84, '85, '87 and '88 (ie the four years they won the Stanley Cup with Gretzky). Margins of victory:

MarginMontrealEdmonton
4 goals3726
5 goals2112
6 goals239
7 goals1010
8+ goals95

I'm a Canadiens fan but it's obvious that Montreal ran up the score far more often than the Oilers did. (All data taken from hockey-reference.com)


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 10-11-2008 at 09:03 PM.
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10-12-2008, 12:09 AM
  #56
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Nearly beat the oilers?
They won a single game in that series. Get a new hobby chooch.
In fairness, I think he was referring to the 87 final, which went 7 games and required a late goal in game 7 to win it.

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10-12-2008, 02:38 PM
  #57
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The 70's Canadiens were a great team but I have to go with the 80's Oilers. The 76-77 Canadiens played when there were 18 NHL teams and 12 WHA teams which, IMO, mean't there was less competetion compared to the Oilers who played in a 21 team NHL.

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10-12-2008, 06:35 PM
  #58
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Until the Oilers came into the NHL I lived and died with the Habs. The first playoff series between the two teams was like having my soul ripped apart. That said, my gut chooses the Oilers.

I can respect other's reasoning for going the other way (after all, the late 70's habs were mysecond favourite team of all-time.) But the point about what happened in 1980-1981 is valid. It is not like the core of the habs was near dead. Lafleur (28), Shutt (28), Robinson (29), Gainey (26), Trembley (23), Houle (30), Lambert (30), Risebrough (26), Langway (23)...were far from over-the-hill. Even Savard was only 34, which by today's standards would leave him with at least a few good years. Certainly, this was not the team of the dynasty, but nor was the Oiler team that dominated them at every point in the series nearly what they would become.

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10-12-2008, 07:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
In fairness, I think he was referring to the 87 final, which went 7 games and required a late goal in game 7 to win it.
Yeah, that was a brain fart by me. I generally just start steaming and hmmphing when Chooch comes in trying to demean Gretzky.
Fortunately, my suspicions proved correct, and his account is gone

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10-12-2008, 07:09 PM
  #60
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Ill take the team with Gretzky at his peak everytime.
Like when he scored 215 points and they lost in the second round.

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10-13-2008, 08:32 PM
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Like when he scored 215 points and they lost in the second round.
Or like the time when he was 20 years old and Lafleur "put him in his back pocket". Or wait, he didn't. It was Gretzky who scored 6 points in the opener.

Or how about the 4 times in 5 years Gretzky did take the Oilers to cup wins while he was at his peak? I think I'll take the guy who has every important playoff scoring record.

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10-13-2008, 10:13 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Or like the time when he was 20 years old and Lafleur "put him in his back pocket". Or wait, he didn't. It was Gretzky who scored 6 points in the opener.

Or how about the 4 times in 5 years Gretzky did take the Oilers to cup wins while he was at his peak? I think I'll take the guy who has every important playoff scoring record.
Obviously Gretzky wins in a heads up match vs Lafleur. But winning 4 cups in 5 years was not only Gretzky, no more than the Habs winning 4 straight was only Lafleur. Both players were the most important player to their respective teams and both teams were capable of winning Stanley cups without each respective player.

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10-13-2008, 10:36 PM
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The Habs have an answer to Gretzky, his name is Bob Gainey.

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10-13-2008, 11:27 PM
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The Habs have an answer to Gretzky, his name is Bob Gainey.
I just love how so many people assume this, when there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest it.

Gainey didn't have an answer to a 20-year-old Gretzky in 1981, so it seems bloody unlikely that he'd be able to stop him in his prime.

In fact, Gretzky had 63 points in 31 games against Montreal during his time in Edmonton. Not sure if Gainey played every single one of those games against, but he'd have been in almost all of them for sure. Clearly Gretzky had his way with Montreal, as he did against every other opponent.

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10-14-2008, 12:20 AM
  #65
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Didn't have the statistics with me, but since Carbonneau was able to shut Gretzky down in the 93 playoffs I assume Gainey would be able to as well. Gretzky wasn't at his best then sure, but Gainey probably wasn't at his best in the late 80's either (He won his Selke's in the 70's).

Where did you find those statistics?


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10-14-2008, 12:33 AM
  #66
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Andy Moog put the Habs in his back pocket in '81 so surely Grant Fuhr would've done even more.

The Oilers win in 7 because you know that Fuhr is not letting the last goal by him.

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10-14-2008, 03:46 AM
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Gretzky and The Oilers would be too much for Ken Dryden.

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10-14-2008, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Until the Oilers came into the NHL I lived and died with the Habs. The first playoff series between the two teams was like having my soul ripped apart. That said, my gut chooses the Oilers.

I can respect other's reasoning for going the other way (after all, the late 70's habs were mysecond favourite team of all-time.) But the point about what happened in 1980-1981 is valid. It is not like the core of the habs was near dead. Lafleur (28), Shutt (28), Robinson (29), Gainey (26), Trembley (23), Houle (30), Lambert (30), Risebrough (26), Langway (23)...were far from over-the-hill. Even Savard was only 34, which by today's standards would leave him with at least a few good years. Certainly, this was not the team of the dynasty, but nor was the Oiler team that dominated them at every point in the series nearly what they would become.
Saying that series was indicative of how good the 70's Habs were is no more relevant than saying that the Oilers losing against a 63 pt Kings squad the following year is indicative of how good those Oilers teams were. Sometimes upsets happen and for a variety of reasons, those early 80's Habs teams were very prone to being upset by lesser teams.

Those early 80's Habs teams would have been smoked by the late
70's Habs teams. That's the impact of many of your players suffering early burnout, not having a clutch elite goalie, not having good coaching and losing guys like Lemaire, Cournoyer and Dryden. The early 80's Habs teams just lost their killer instinct. Not unlike the mid-80's to late 80's Isles teams.

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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Or like the time when he was 20 years old and Lafleur "put him in his back pocket". Or wait, he didn't. It was Gretzky who scored 6 points in the opener.
The single dumbest comment I've ever heard from a Habs player. Sevigny was an idiot, and considering he was the single biggest reason for the Oilers upsetting the Habs, he looks like an even bigger idiot.

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10-14-2008, 08:20 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Saying that series was indicative of how good the 70's Habs were is no more relevant than saying that the Oilers losing against a 63 pt Kings squad the following year is indicative of how good those Oilers teams were. Sometimes upsets happen and for a variety of reasons, those early 80's Habs teams were very prone to being upset by lesser teams.

Those early 80's Habs teams would have been smoked by the late
70's Habs teams. That's the impact of many of your players suffering early burnout, not having a clutch elite goalie, not having good coaching and losing guys like Lemaire, Cournoyer and Dryden. The early 80's Habs teams just lost their killer instinct. Not unlike the mid-80's to late 80's Isles teams.
Not to Mention Lapointe's last good year was 78-78. Lafleur's last of his big years was 1980. Mahovlich was gone after 1978, Savard really was done after 78-79, to go along with Cournoyer, Dryden and Lemaire.

The team lost more than its killer instinct. It lost its franchise goaltender, 2 of the big 3 Dmen to age/injuries and their Franchise forward to injuries. Along with3-4 of its primary roleplayers/secondary scorers.

The Habs team the Oilers of the early 80's beat was not even half of what is was just a few years earlier.

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10-14-2008, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Not to Mention Lapointe's last good year was 78-78. Lafleur's last of his big years was 1980. Mahovlich was gone after 1978, Savard really was done after 78-79, to go along with Cournoyer, Dryden and Lemaire.

The team lost more than its killer instinct. It lost its franchise goaltender, 2 of the big 3 Dmen to age/injuries and their Franchise forward to injuries. Along with3-4 of its primary roleplayers/secondary scorers.

The Habs team the Oilers of the early 80's beat was not even half of what is was just a few years earlier.
Agreed. Looking at the teams the Habs lost to in the early 80's and it was not exactly an earthshattering group. An 88pt North Star team, a 73 pt Oilers team, an 82 pt Nordique team and an 89 pt Sabres team. All team's with significantly less points than the Habs in the regular season and all teams that would have been relatively easy fodder for the late 70's Habs teams. The Habs of those years were just a team made to be upset. Perhaps with better coaching and a true #1 goalie, they may have gone somewhere. If only Lemaire and Roy had arrived in Montreal in 1980 instead of 1984 and 1985 respectively.

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10-14-2008, 09:39 AM
  #71
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Not to Mention Lapointe's last good year was 78-78. Lafleur's last of his big years was 1980. Mahovlich was gone after 1978, Savard really was done after 78-79, to go along with Cournoyer, Dryden and Lemaire.

The team lost more than its killer instinct. It lost its franchise goaltender, 2 of the big 3 Dmen to age/injuries and their Franchise forward to injuries. Along with3-4 of its primary roleplayers/secondary scorers.

The Habs team the Oilers of the early 80's beat was not even half of what is was just a few years earlier.
When Mtl lost o Minny in 1980, the thought was that it was a fluke. Lafleur was hurt, a few other guys, don't worry we're still the Habs. It became clear after the Oiler series that they weren't the same team, not even close, for the reasons you state.

Coming down from the 70's and having to realize that they'd have to find a new way to win was tough.

Sevigny always had a knack for doing something stupid at playoff time. In 84,the Penney led Habs led the Isles 2 games to none and had them on the run. Then Sevigny decides to start a post game brawl with Billy Smith. Good move, Sevigny gets lambasted, Isles win next 4.

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10-14-2008, 05:38 PM
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Didn't have the statistics with me, but since Carbonneau was able to shut Gretzky down in the 93 playoffs I assume Gainey would be able to as well. Gretzky wasn't at his best then sure, but Gainey probably wasn't at his best in the late 80's either (He won his Selke's in the 70's).

Where did you find those statistics?
I have a book that gives the stats of every game Gretzky played with Edmonton.

I can understand your reasoning for thinking Gainey would hold Gretzky in check, lots of people do, but I just don't see it happening. Even if Montreal's checkers did manage to limit some of the damage, they'd probably be out on the ice for 20-25 minutes of even strength play if line matching directly with Gretzky, therefore limiting Montreal's offensive effectiveness. Gainey would probably be best utilized checking the Messier-Anderson line IMO.

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10-14-2008, 06:28 PM
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I have a book that gives the stats of every game Gretzky played with Edmonton.

I can understand your reasoning for thinking Gainey would hold Gretzky in check, lots of people do, but I just don't see it happening. Even if Montreal's checkers did manage to limit some of the damage, they'd probably be out on the ice for 20-25 minutes of even strength play if line matching directly with Gretzky, therefore limiting Montreal's offensive effectiveness. Gainey would probably be best utilized checking the Messier-Anderson line IMO.
I think the whole idea of a shadow on Gretzky is flawed in the first place. The Oilers move the puck too well to expect one guy to shut down Gretzky.

The key to the Islanders' succes in the 83 SCF was their defensemen. The Islanders had a solid group of mobile defensemen. Langevin and Morrow especially made it tough for Gretzky to set up around the net with their long reach and the forwards did a good job of covering the passing lanes when the D went after Wayne behind the net. I recall Langevin dumping Gretzky behind a net on at least a few occasions. Big reason that Wayne was held to just one assist and no goals in that series.

The next season, Langevin and Morrow were both hurting from injuries (Langevin even missed half the playoffs) and Potvin just looked worn out. With those 3 guys much less than 100%, the Islanders just got run over. It didn't help that Goring was also out of steam.

For Montreal to win, they'd have to utilize their defense in much the same way. Savard, Lapointe, Robinson and Engblom is a very solid, mobile and tough top 4. They can all move the puck pretty well, too. The role of the forwards would simply be support.

Another key that is often overlooked is faceoffs. The Islanders had two excellent and one very good faceoff guys (Trottier, Goring and B. Sutter) which helped them maintain puck possession. The Canadiens also had 2 excellent and one very good faceoff guys (Jarvis, Lemaire and Risebrough). For the Oilers, Messier was excellent on draws and MacTavish was pretty good, but that's about it.

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10-15-2008, 06:53 PM
  #74
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Saying that series was indicative of how good the 70's Habs were is no more relevant than saying that the Oilers losing against a 63 pt Kings squad the following year is indicative of how good those Oilers teams were. Sometimes upsets happen and for a variety of reasons, those early 80's Habs teams were very prone to being upset by lesser teams.

Those early 80's Habs teams would have been smoked by the late
70's Habs teams. That's the impact of many of your players suffering early burnout, not having a clutch elite goalie, not having good coaching and losing guys like Lemaire, Cournoyer and Dryden. The early 80's Habs teams just lost their killer instinct. Not unlike the mid-80's to late 80's Isles teams.
I completely agree that one cannot settle this debate by looking simply at this one series. You are right that the loss of Lemaire, Cournoyer and Dryden (and of course Lapointe) was a major issue. But I remember sitting in my seats during the series clincher feeling that the win for the Oilers was no fluke. More to the point though is that these two teams were both at least representative of what they could be at their best. This is not like comparing the Habs of the 50's to the Oilers in the 80's. Many of these players had a good part of their careers in common.

I just don't see this as being like the Oilers loss to LA. From that point on the Oilers rose up the ladder while the Canadiens started to slide back. (The 1981-82 Oilers finished with 111 points for 2nd overallto Montreals 109. The next time the Habs had more points was 1987-1988). But in the end, the Canadiens were only four years from their absolute peak with many of their players still in their prime when these teams met. On the other hand, the most talented Oiler team (though perhaps not the best) was the 1986-1987 squad.

Part of my point is that people make claims like "Gainey in his prime would have dominated Gretzky". But he was 26 years old when they played in 1981. There is no concrete evidence what so ever to support such a claim because he never did dominate Gretzky at any point in which their careers overlapped. Again, it is not like trying to compare Howe to Crosby.

This debate has no definitive answer. Anyone who claims otherwise is speaking more with emotions than they are with facts.

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10-15-2008, 08:53 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Kman777 View Post
The Habs have an answer to Gretzky, his name is Bob Gainey.
Oilers have an answer to LaFleur, his name is Esa Tikkanen.

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